If you aren't going to do that, then there's no point in arguing, because you haven't agreed on what you're arguing about yet.

Absolutely true. I'd love clarification from both sides.

That's why I started from the Bible. Right or wrong, at least it's something in common to start from.

My point is that science describes the laws of the universe. Those laws may or may not have been put in place by a creator, but that point is irrelevant. Whether we're determining natural law of the rules put in place by that being is irrelevant. In fact, they may well be the same way of stating the same thing.

Yup!

In addition, any potential creator does not rig the results of this reality.

That point could be debatable, hence the reason I asked "does God cheat at Solitaire?"

My ultimate point is that those of you that beileve that you can depend on said creator to provide you with things, physical or psychological, are mistaken and setting yourselves up for failure. Depend on yourself, not the boogeyman.

I agree with that statement, but probably not for the same reasons. I certainly agree that if you just say "Hey god, get me a car," or "Hey god, make me happy", then just carry on life without doing anything more, one day you're going to say "dammit, where's that car I asked for" or "how come I'm not happy?" From what you wrote, it makes me think that your concept of God is that he ought to either be an indentured servant, or a parent that will spoil a child -- do this, do that, make me happy, etc. If that's the case, then yeah, you're going to have problems. I think it better to look at God as a parent who gives a kid a bit of guidance, then lets the kid go learn on his own. If the kid asks for help, sometimes the parent will help, sometimes the parent will wait a bit before helping, and sometimes the parent will say "you got into this mess, I'll let you get out of it on your own so that maybe you'll learn something from this." In otherwords, don't be afraid of asking for help if you're stuck, but be prepared to go it alone.

Now, whether you choose to think of something that helps as having been provided by God or is just some random fluctuation in the entropy of the world, is up to you.