I found one reference to this issue in the archives, but it doesn't completely answer my question, so please help...

I just got my Empeg hooked up for the first time, in a 1974 Innocenti Mini Cooper (Italian made version of the British classic; virtually identical). Also installed is a big Harman Kardon amp (rated at 60 w/ch RMS, but very conservatively rated). I wired the Empeg's constant-power lead to the same circuit as the cigarette lighter, and its switched lead to the circuit that also feeds the handbrake indicator light (which provides 12 volts when the ignition is on, even if the light is not lit). The amp is wired directly to the battery (which tests okay).

Problem is, when I use my headlights and let off of the accelerator, the unit shuts off for a few seconds, and then resumes (showing the power warning indicator). It does not stay off the entire time I'm idling, just for a few seconds. According to the voltmeter in the dash, voltage is dropping dramatically during those few seconds, hence the problem.

I see a couple of possible solutions. One would be to wire a large capacitor inline with the Empeg's power lead. Question is, which lead (ignition-switched, or constant hot)? And could anyone venture a guess as to the value of the cap that I'd need?

A second option would be to run the Empeg's constant hot lead directly to the battery, using the battery as a huge capacitor so to speak. But this would still allow the possibility of a voltage drop on the switched ignition lead. Would that solve the problem, or would it still shut off if the voltage dropped on the switched lead? If the latter, perhaps I can run both leads directly to the battery, with a relay in line with the switched lead, using the aforementioned ignition lead to trigger the relay.

Am I risking damage to my Empeg using it this way?

Finally, since many of you are in the UK, where the Mini is much more common than it is here in the States, can anyone who's owned one tell me if my experience is typical for this vehicle? Perhaps I have a problem with my alternator (although it did not misbehave until I installed the stereo system, which is clearly taxing it).

- Ron Salmon

I know nothing about the wiring in that Cooper, but those connection points don't sound like the proper places to be hooking up the power lines.

First, do make sure to run the player (and its amplifier, I assume you have one) from a line that's run straight from the battery. If it's feeding an amplifier, it needs to be fairly heavy-gauge wire, probably heavier than the cigarette lighter's wire. Make sure you fuse it close to the battery somewhere. This might solve the problem.

If that doesn't solve your problem, then you're looking at power issues with the car in general. I don't know how well-regulated the voltage in those old Coopers are supposed to be, but I'm guessing it's not supposed to drop below 10 volts, which is what that "battery symbol" is indicating. Perhaps the ol' Coop' needs a new alternator, a new battery, or a new voltage regulator, and your Empeg is just telling you about it?

Note that your ignition wire kluge, although not optimal, has nothing to do with the voltage drop and the "battery symbol" appearing. Your problem is only with the constant-power line. If it had anything to do with the ignition line, the player would fully reboot rather than show that low-voltage indicator.

I would try checking the voltage on the battery itself. it may be on the way out and not able to sustain a suitable voltage. I have the power dip problem but only when I start the car, not for something as mere as using the headlights. I have pop up headlights anyway so I _should_ get more voltage drop at that time anyway. I know you have an internal volt guage meter but how reliable and accurate is it?

Next try running a lead directly between the battery and the empeg always on power. You say it is currently connected to the cig lighter, possibly not the most reliable source. I would run it from the same source you have the power for your amps your amps dont seem to be suffering at this point.

If your lights tend to pulse when playing music at a moderate level it's an indication that your charging/battery systems is on the way to the graveyard.

edit: dang it beaten by tony!

I have the power dip problem but only when I start the car, not for something as mere as using the headlights.

You don't understand. This is a '74 mini cooper. Using the headlights actually reduces its top speed by 10mph.

-20mph if you use both headlamps.

...and if you use the brake lights, the car stops - on it's own!

I am not sure whether you have an alternator setup or a dynamo. If you have a dynamo, then what you are describing is the drop in woltage as the dynamo spins down, and the regulator is not switching fast enough. I would first start with a look at your regulator unit to see that it does switch immediately when you take your foot off the accelerator. Also, if you have a wide-belt pulley, the tension needs to be bang on or the belt slips badly on the over-run.

If you have an alternator setup, I'd be inclined to have a look at the state of your battery as usually the regulators are solid state, so that should not be a problem (unless you have a duff alternator or a slipping belt). Mini batteries are usually pretty inadequate if you use the standard spec, so I have always gone for higher Ah ratings and the largest battery that will physically fit into the battery box. Also, the battery earth lead connection to the chassis can corrode quite easily, so have a look there (mine's in the boot).

I have a Mk1 installed in a '91 998cc Racing Green (not as nice as yours - look on the geek site for a picture). The Mk1 is a simple on-off two lead wiring setup, so I wired to body earth on the front bulkhead and tapped with 17A rated wire from the ignition feed. For the Mk2 you need a permanent battery feed to the "Memory" connection on the sled, and the ignition switched 12V goes to the "Ign Sense" line. This is the main power feed to the Mk 2: hence, I'm not too sure that the feed point you have chosen is really the best. It really needs to be a feed derived from the ignition switch.

If you have any Mini related intall issues, mail me through the board.

I thought I understood the solution last night after reading the first two responses, but one response this morning has only confused me again, as it seems to contradict the other two responses...

Muzza says "try running a lead directly between the battery and the empeg always on power " and tfabris says "do make sure to run the player from a line that's run straight from the battery... This might solve the problem."

But Schofiel says "the ignition switched 12V ...is the main power feed to the Mk 2:". Wouldn't this mean that the switched 12v lead is the crucial one (the one that needs a more stable voltage supply), not the unswitched one?

Well, hang on then - I don't want you to be confused.

The car player has two power leads, the memory maintain and the power feed.

Maintain is used for the clock. The main power feed is the one that the player hardware draws it's main current supply, without which it won't be able to spin up disks and so forth. If you only connected the maintain lead, then the unit would just stay in standby.

If you only connected the main power, then the unit would just "die" the second you removed the power; if this was derived from the ignition, say, then as soon as you turn off the ignition the unit would drop. However, this wouldn't be desirable in terms of the unit being able to "remember" properly, etc.

Hence, both need to be connected for correct operation. The Maintain can be connected to a permanent 12V feed, which (as Tony says) could be a permanent battery connection. I would tend up look upstream of the ignition switch; on Brit vehicles the unswitched, battery feed is Brown. A switched side battery feed will either be red (early vehicles) or brown with a white thread ( the thread in a main colour always indicates it is switched, unbroken main colour is unswitched).

For the main feed, you need a good, switched feed. You can either draw it from the ignition switch, or wire in a relay controlled by the ignition that feeds directly from the battery. In either case, you will need a good, fused supply (I would have thought enough to supply 5A without fusing) that can give the unit enough juice on power up.

I had some power problems too when I started turning up the stereo. I ended up just getting a 1000uF cap rated at 20V and stuck it in parallel with the main power in back of the empeg, and all seems to be good now. It only cost $3 at radio shack. Seems to keep the voltage up above 10V. I don't think it needs to be a huge 1Farad cap because the Empeg only draws 1 Amp of current. Try out this cheap solution before spending big money on others.

I would tend up look upstream of the ignition switch

I (respectfully) disagree. I think that he should be looking upstream of the constant-power line for the fault.

He was right to be confused, we really are saying the opposite thing.

Your statement that the player draws most of its current from the ignition-switched line is, I believe, based on other brands of car stereos. In other brands of car stereos, the constant power line really is only used for the clock memory. But in the Rio Car player, it fully powers the unit, including CPU, disk drives, and everything (if you awaken it from standby with the ignition off). So the yellow wire really does need a lot of juice.

I know that the Mark2 (not 2a) players could get their juice from the orange wire if they had no other choice. But on the 2a players, even this is not possible and the orange wire is merely an "ignition sense" wire, and does not need a lot of current. That wire simply detects for the presence of 12v, it doesn't need to draw all of its current from that wire.

Rob, I respect your opinion and your intelligence, and I am willing to be proven wrong on this point. Hugo, can you jump in here and clarify this? It's important that we all understand how it works.

The car player has two power leads, the memory maintain and the power feed.

Er, Rob, are you sure about that? As far as I understand, the main power source (the one with fuse etc) is the permanent one. Ignition sense is just that, a signal that tells empeg to go to sleep (and eventually fully off, if a timer expires without a user awakening it). After all, when one turns ignition off, the player merely pauses, lowers the amp command line and switches the dispaly off. If you wake it up, it plays normally.

Well, not finding a clear consensus, I took the safest route and did both. I ran both leads directly to the battery, and used a relay to trigger the switched lead on the Empeg so that the relay only passes the current from the battery when the key is on.

It solved the problem. But now that the unit powers up reliably, it drew my attention to a new problem: I think my unit may be defective. :-(

Often when I choose a certain playlist (I have less than 1 GB of MP3's loaded onto a 20 GB unit so far), it seems to lock up. It goes to the first song on the playlist I choose, shows an elapsed time of 00 or sometimes 10, and then does nothing. During this time no controls on the unit will respond, except for the pause control, which sometimes shuts the unit off and sometimes doesn't respond either. Sometimes it suddenly starts playing the song a few minutes later. Other times it doesn't, and I am forced to undock and re-dock it to reset it, at which time it works okay for a short time before doing it again. The problem is not related to the playlist itself; it will play a given playlist fine one time, then lock up the next on the exact same song.

On other occasions, it skips very badly (on the same songs that play fine at other times). This occurs even when no vibration is present (car is parked, engine off).

And twice it gave me some sort of "invalid MP3 file" error on bootup, which went away after I undocked and re-docked it.

I would say that I can't get it to go more than 15 minutes or so without some sort of error that forces me to reboot.

I shot en email to Empeg tech support but have not received a reply yet (of course we're going into a weekend). So I thought I'd mention it here too in the meantime. Any suggestions, or is my unit DOA? If the latter, I sure hope they kept a few for warranty exchanges!

What software version are you using? Several people have reported problems with the most recent betas where the empeg will go unresponsive or seem to lock up.

-Aaron

I ran both leads directly to the battery, and used a relay to trigger the switched lead on the Empeg so that the relay only passes the current from the battery when the key is on.

Excellent solution. Can't go wrong there and you minimise the possibility of ground loops.

when I choose a certain playlist ... it seems to lock up.

...it skips very badly...

..."invalid MP3 file"...

Hmm. very odd. Ditto as mentioned above, What player version are you using? 1.03 should not do any of this. If you unit does need repair, it will most likely be repaired not replaced.

I ran both leads directly to the battery, and used a relay to trigger the switched lead on the Empeg so that the relay only passes the current from the battery when the key is on.

If you didn't already - fuse those lines close to the battery. An unfused line that gets shorted to ground has the capability to set most anything on fire.

/Michael

This is the commercial release of the software (1.03??), not the Beta.

This is the commercial release of the software (1.03??), not the Beta.

Okay, then it might be a drive cable problem. See here. Make sure to follow its link to the Hyperterminal instructions and do a memory test.

Then again, it might simply be a bad MP3 file sent to the unit. Try playing smaller selections of MP3s and see if you can narrow it down to one specific file.

> Then again, it might simply be a bad MP3 file sent to the unit.
> Try playing smaller selections of MP3s and see if you can narrow it down to one specific file.

If so, then it's an awful lot of bad MP3 files. The unit has locked up on at least a dozen different tracks so far - the same tracks that play pefectly fine other times. Similarly, the skipping happens on a wide range of tracks, all of which play perfectly fine other times. If bad MP3 files were the cause, why would so many be bad, and why would the exact same tracks play perfectly about half of the time? Either the data is good or it's bad, no? Also, it's odd that while most of the time the lockup occurs when it first tries to start a track, about one out of six times that it locks up it happens at exactly 10 seconds on the time counter (on a few different tracks) - not 5 seconds or 8 seconds or any other interval but always 10 seconds. Just a coincidence?

I was just throwing out options. There were two options in that message, so I guess it's probably the other one (or something similar).

Hmmm... Well, now I am well and truly puzzled. I made these statements on the basis of what I did in my Mini (Mk 1 install) and what I have been doing in the last week on my Mk 2 install in the Laguna. I may well be totally wrong (it sounds like I have it the wrong way round) and to be honest, I have noticed a number of times that I seem to be the opposite way round to what other people are saying in various threads.

I've just been to look at the wiring loom I'm building in the shed. The high current power feed from the ISO power connector on the Laguna is a fused line, switched by the ignitiion. I can track this through the car's circuit diagram. This is connecting to the orange, ignition sense wire on the sled.

The puny, weedy, 0.5mm(s), unfused permanent 12V feed from the ISO is connecting with the fused, filtered yellow memory wire on the sled.

This does imply you are right, and I am totally wrong, much to my great consternation. Thanks for pointing this out - now how the heck am I going to sort out a decent permanent 12V feed without bodging the harness around, dammit!

Sigh. Back to the drawing board.

As for the advice - what I meant was, choose the unswitched feed from the wire leading to the ignition switch upstream of the switch itself: this is the brown feed wire. Mini ignition switches around that period were not really that hot. They did have the benefit of having an (unfused) auxiliary feed line on the switch that may or may not have been brought out from the switch itself. If it was brought out into the loom, then the wire colour would be PINK with no tracer colour. This is "ON" in all positions of the switch except the OFF position, and also at the AUX position which allows you to remove the key from the switch with power still on. This was specifically to allow for radio usage. It's on many Austins, Rovers and Triumphs of the period. The Innocenti may not have the same switch type, so you would need to check.

I made these statements on the basis of what I did in my Mini (Mk 1 install)

And for the Mark1, your statements were correct. The Mark1 had only a single power connector, meant to be connected to the ignition-switched power. It was the main power feed and responsible for all the juice going to the player.

now how the heck am I going to sort out a decent permanent 12V feed without bodging the harness around, dammit!

If you are not having any problems with your existing installation, then I would suggest that you don't change a thing. If it works, don't fix it.

No problem. I didn't mean to sound like I was putting down your suggestions, Tony, so I hope I didn't come off that way - in fact I greatly appreciate your input. I was just seeing if you concurred that under the circumstances the likelihood of it being caused by a bad MP3 file seems very remote.

For that matter, the exact circumstances of the shutdown are different from the known one caused by the bad cable (in that case it froze up at the boot logo, not when searching a track as in my case). So if it is indeed the cable, it has manifested itself in a new way as compared to the other person's experience (which I suppose is not at all impossible). I guess I'll see what Empeg says when they get back to me and see if they want me to pop it open and look at the cable. (Hate to do it without their okay as it's a brand new unit.)

My Empeg is installed in a Toyota MR2 and I have the same symptoms. When pulling away the player will turn off for about a second, then come back on and show the low voltage icon. I thought it was a case of TADS (They All Do That Sir) but I guess not. The battery in my car is on its way out - could this be causing the problem? I've got a new battery but haven't got round to fitting it yet!

The battery in my car is on its way out - could this be causing the problem?

Almost definitely.