Dear Fellow EmPeggers,

Well, it wasn't an auspicious start to the day. I had made an appointment with my local service garage's auto electrician for this morning, but when I got there they couldn't find it in their computer -- and things went downhill from there. :-(

First problem is the size of the EmPeg unit. The electrician tells me that the Euro-DIN slot on the VW Passat 1999 Variant that I have will not fit the EmPeg, because of the cable protection unit and the cables themselves. He says it's around 2 cm too deep. I haven't inspected this myself, but as someone who has installed hundreds of car audio units, I guess he might have a point. Any ideas on how to deal with this would be welcome -- he said it might be possible, but quoted prices in excess of US$1,000 for the installation -- not including the amplifier or new speakers!

Second problem was that the EmPeg doesn't have an internal amplifier, therefore it won't drive the 35 watt speakers in the car. (There are 8 speakers, i.e., 4 pairs.) Therefore, he recommended an external amplifier (which the sodding dealer told me would be fitted to the car when I bought it, but he lied -- and when confronted with his lie, he claimed he was talking about a "radio antenna amplifier.")

OK, so I look at an external amplifier -- and it's about the size of a breadbox, putting out 300 watts. Where should I stick this thing? (I could think of a couple of places, but neither are repeatable on a family channel.) Suggestions for where the external amplifier should be fitted would be gratefully received. The VW Variant is a wagon/estate model -- doesn't leave much room in the boot.

Third problem is that they don't make (it's claimed) a 35 W car audio amp -- because all radios usually come with amps built-in. I wish that EmPeg had made it clearer what sort of external amps would work with this kit in advance -- it's in the instruction manual, of course, but I'd like to see it on the Web site too. Anyway, this means I have to rip out all 8 speakers from the car, and bung in new ones (est. cost US$600) to support a bigger amp. Then I have the problem of the cable run from the head unit to wherever the Amp will live.

One further question -- does the EmPeg have an output that allows an external amplifer to be switched on and off? Otherwise, the Amp has to run all the time.

So, all in all not a good start to the day. Even worse is that most of the above conversations had to occur in German, which I don't speak particularly well, and you can guess at my mood. Any suggestions on how to deal with these issues would be most welcome. Thanks!


Paul Gillingwater
Red Hat Certified Engineer

Boy, you had a tough day .

I would think that while the advice you have had is valid, it's over the top and expensive. My neighbour here (in NL) has just had 2, 2 x 35W Kenwood amps
fitted under the front seats of his Passat estate, for which he has retained the original speakers and some of the original wiring. I am currently looking at Caliber competition amps, which are very compact and some as low as 2 x 20 W RMS into 8 ohms (old fashioned, I know). It's not impossible to locate a good amp, merely difficult. I think it would be worthwhile holding off an install until you have researched it bit more. The line "all head units come with amps" coming from a reputedly professional ICE installation specialist would worry me a lot...

The orange line from the empeg sled is the remote activate line; if you refer to the manual it gives you the maximum source current it will tolerate. Don't overload it....

Have a look at the Kenwood catalogue (at least 2 compact external amps under 40W) and at http://www.caliber.nl for ideas - don't be too heavily swayed by some ICE places (except CCA, of course) as sometimes they are a *leetle beet* too interested in margin...

Paul,

Don't despair! I can't help you with the specifics of your VW, but what you said about your garage's electrician sounds like you should, at least, get a "second opinion" elsewhere. The price seems way too high, and I'm also not sure how much of an expert he really was.

As has been said: you can keep the speakers that are in the car, and you can really use amps as low as 30W per channel. The 35W quoted for each speaker is the *maximum* the speaker can cope with - they don't *need* as much to produce good sound.

I live in Munich, I have an empeg, and I speak German - so if I can help you somehow, just email me (tadzio@tadzio.com)

For the price you were quoted, I'd suggest a trip to the UK, visiting Cambridge Car Audio and having them install your empeg... :-)

Wiedersehen!
Daniel

Thanks to both of the responses so far. I had a rush of blood to the head, went out and bought an amplifier, and spoke to a local colleague who is a bit of an expert at car electrics, having worked for Lucas. Together we picked out something made in Germany, called the "Magnat RAVE 440". This amp does 4 x 110 Watts, allows up to 4 V input, and allows bridging, and works on 12 volt -ve ground electricals. We also bought a few metres of cable, and now we're looking for the best place in the VW Passat Variant to fit such an amplifier. I'm thinking about under a seat, but I guess this should be the front seat, since it needs some ventilation for cooling.

I also took off the panel covering the Euro-DIN slot, and found that contrary to the opinion of the "experts" in Vienna, there is indeed enough space in the Passat for an EmPeg unit. So, my only concern now, and the area where I would appreciate advice on, is:

1. Where should the Amp be mounted? How can I fix it to the car?
   
2. What's the easiest way to run cables from the head end to the amp, then back again? (The speakers all terminate behind the head end.)
   
3. Does anyone have a list of the colour coding for cables in a VW Passat?
   Thanks very much for any responses.
   
   
   Paul Gillingwater
   Red Hat Certified Engineer
   

I did try and get around to posting a response earlier, but by the sounds of things, you've discovered for yourself by now that the dealer seems to be taking advantage of the situation a bit.

The Magnat amp should work pretty well with the Empeg - we've sold Magnat in the past, and it's pretty decent quality gear. As for your points:-

1) Under a front seat is as good a place as any. You do need plenty of air circulation around the amp, but as long as there's at least some air gap between the amp and the bottom of the seat you should be OK. You can just screw the amp straight down to the floorpan (watching out for brake pipes below the car. Sounds stupid, but people have done it before now - "professional" installers included), but probably a better idea is to mount an MDF board below the carpet, then screw the amp into this (assuming that doesn't cause height problems).

2) Remove the front seat (should be a single bolt or metal clip in the front centre runner, then remove the two plastic runner covers behind the seat with the seat slid forward as far as possible and it just slides back and out). Remove the sill trim (Usually just clipped in place - might vary on the later Passats, but I don't think so from memory). You can then lift the carpet up enough to run cables so that they're completely hidden. You may have to remove the glovebox to get access to the back of the head unit, but it's not usually too difficult a job.

3) Don't bother. Go to any decent ICE dealer and buy an ISO connector that'll plug straight into the car wiring harness, then use this to connect your new cables to - this should either be marked to say which cable's which, or use standard aftermarket colour coding (in which case, get back to me if you're at all uncertain what's what).

If you do have problems with the depth of the Empeg cage, removing the cover plate over the back of the harness should gain you a few mm - just be careful not to strain or crush the cables as you fit the cage. If you still have trouble, the problem will probably be down to the ISO back support bracket at the back of the dash aperture. In most VWs, this is just thin plastic, and can be cut back with a stanley knife fairly easily.

Dominic

Cambridge Car Audio
http://www.cambscaraudio.co.uk

Paul --

You've already made the most important move in this whole adventure -- by going far, far away from those miscreants at that stereo shop. Don't go back, they are clueless about car audio.

As Schofiel/Tadzio said, the rated wattages of your speakers are maximums. Unless you have big boxes full of subwoofers you haven't told us about, your 440 watt amplifier is very much overkill. With speakers as you have described, that amp you bought will be putting out such a small percentage of its total capacity that cooling will not be much of a problem. Anyplace where there is air surrounding it will be adequate; My preferrred location is under the passenger seat, far enough forward that rear seat passengers feet can't hit it, but far enough back that, if you slide the passenger seat forward you can reach amp settings (gain, crossover switches, etc.) while sitting in the drivers seat.

Most times, the cables from the amp to the head unit will be run beneath the carpeting. Run them "sideways" from the head unit over to the side of the car, unscrew a few trim pieces, and you can usually get beneath the carpeting along the door sills, and from there under the seat. You will have to cut a small slit in the carpet under the seat to get the wires out to the amp. It is a good idea to separate the power leads and the audio leads as much as possible, even to the extent of running the power leads down one door sill and the audio leads down the other.

It is possible that your owners manual for your car may have a wiring diagram in it -- Teutonic thoroughness with a German car and all that. If not, then a Hanes manual (or similar) for your car would be available at an auto parts supply store. But I betcha that Dominic at Cambridge Car Audio (bbs id: Cambscar) could tell you without even looking it up the few colors you need to know to for this installation.

I take note of your assistant, here: "...a bit of an expert at car electrics, having worked for Lucas". I guess he would have to be (expert, that is). I saw a great bumper sticker once: "Why do the English drink warm beer? Lucas Refrigerators!" ;-) But I am sure your friend can tell you even more Lucas stories than I can.

One final note, referencing your first post: empeg does make it quite clear that an amplifier is required. Under the "Player" section of their website, second paragraph:

To get sound out of the unit, you need
to hook it up to an amp: this can
either be a dedicated car audio amp
(there are 4 RCA-outs on the back of
the unit) or to the auxillary input on
another head unit. If you want to keep
your head unit (and it has pre-outs on
it) you can feed these into the empeg
car and it will allow you to select the
auxiliary input when you want to play
CDs or tapes.

I'm sorry you missed that, but from everything I've heard, you will be more than delighted with the unit once you get it installed and functional.

Keep us posted on how things work out.

tanstaafl.




"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

What the Guys have said above, is exactly right.

As a note to you, why would you purchase the Empeg and just magically think it was going to work in your car. Many radio manufactures make special units just for different car makes. Other companys deal with parts just to make after market radios work in just about any car. As for no internal amp, you just said its too big to fit your car now, and internal amp would make the unit bigger yet, or you could only fit one HD in it. Most high end car radios do not have internal amps so that the sound is prority.
Empeg has all specs listed on thier web site, inputs, outputs and size.

It seems like you just didn't read enough before the purchase. Don't make Empeg sound like they didn't inform you well enough.

Once you get that thing working, you will see its worth the trouble. Its an awesome product. I hope you have it working soon.

I love mine, it sounds great and everyone who sees it, is amazed!