Ok, this LAN at work has grown... now we are all interested in createing our own level that mimics our work building.. A broadcast facility with 6 studios where we have to run around and can't get into certain doors without the right keys! [smilie]

We also figured that most of the machines here (all notebooks) could run Quake I or UnReal I. Which of these is the easiest to create levels for or am I unrealistic here? I have never created a level for a game except the original Age of Empires. We figured we'd lay out the floor plan and then add detail later as we went...

Anyone have any experience in this ? Recommendations?

If you have never worked with a 3D editing package and you have never created levels before, then neither one is easy. Making 3D maps takes some practice and experience. Your first few maps will probably suck, and then get better over time. I suggest trying both and see which one is more agreeable to you as an editing methodology. Note that on the Quake side of things, you've got multiple choices for editing software (BSP, Worldcraft, QuakeEd). I think (not sure) that for Unreal, you've only got UnrealEd.

I have never tried to create an Unreal level, but I do know one maddening thing about making Quake levels that will probably give you fits the first time you try: VIS LEAKS.

See, the Quake engine speeds rendering by dividing up its levels into something called Binary Space Partitions (BSPs). These are essentially database entries which say "If the player is standing here, then he can potentially see polygons here, here, and here, so render only those polygons."

It creates this BSP tree mathematically, using a series of postprocessing tools. The problem arises if you've created a level with holes somewhere in the architecture. For example, a complex arrangement of vertices in a ceiling corner might have a gap between two walls that you didn't know was there. On the other side of that gap is "mathematical nothingness", an area of the map which can't be properly divided into the BSP tree. The result of such a "leak" is that the entire map isn't VIS'ed and every polygon is always fully drawn for every frame. So you get dismal frame rates.

Some poor level designers resort to encasing their level inside a giant sealed "box" to get rid of the VIS leaks. This solves nothing, since it doesn't fix the leak, and results in a properly VISed level that still has dismal frame rates.

Not having created an Unreal level, I don't know how this is handled in their engine. Anyone have experience with it?

Oh, and I forgot to say one thing:

Others in the past have created Quake/Doom/Unreal levels based on their homes or offices. This is one of the very first things people did as soon as Doom editing was available. All of these maps have invariably sucked. They were boring compared to properly-designed game maps. Once the novelty of seeing your office bathroom in Quake has worn off, there is nothing left to make it interesting.

Designing a good game map is an art which requires an intimate understanding of what makes a game fun. The actual layout of the map, its very architecture, is what determines its fun factor. The architect who designed your house or office building intended to make it logical and functional, not fun. He designed it for normal people to use for normal every day living and working. He did not design it for someone to run around at 60 miles per hour with a rocket launcher. So it would follow that any maps based on your house or office would not be fun to play in, at least not as a Quake game.

And there is also the Single-vs-Multi issue. Early on, it was discovered that a map that's fun in single-player mode isn't necessarily fun in Deathmatch. Most games now have completely separate single-player and deathmatch maps for this reason. The newest games have even further subdivided this into individual maps for different types of deathmatch and team games. With that kind of speciality, how can you expect to make a fun game out of your office floor plan?

Not having created an Unreal level, I don't know how this is handled in their engine. Anyone have experience with it?


If I remember correctly, it worked in the opposite manner from Quake... You started with a large block. Then you carved out the sections you wanted for a level, like a giant cave. Supposedly it made VIS leaks near impossible. I didn't like it much.

And RE: the office spaces... I remember one level, I think it was from SiN, that was a giant Kid's Playroom. You (and your opponents) were the size of G.I. joes... It rocked hard! I think that it's the only example I can think of that fits the theme and was fun, tho. And of course, it was engineered to be non-realistic.

Yes, that SiN level did rock. But you'll notice that it was still a fantasy level where the play dictated the architecture, and not the other way around.

If I remember correctly, it worked in the opposite manner from Quake... You started with a large block. Then you carved out the sections you wanted for a level, like a giant cave. Supposedly it made VIS leaks near impossible. I didn't like it much.

Yep, that is exactly the way it works. It does take some getting used to since it is the exact opposite from every other 3D editor (game or not).

If anyone wants to work with the editor enough to see how hard it is to make a level, Unrealty has a demo of their editor available for download. This is almost identical to the UnrealED in the way it works, so tutorials and such should be able to be followed in it.

My last huge attempt to make a map was back with the BUILD engine in Duke3D. Now that was an odd method of making maps...

Edit: I just talked to the person who made Unrealty, and he said making maps for Quake 1 will probably be easier. For your purpose it is probably what you will want to go with.

I would agree and disagree with Tony's statement here. If you have NEVER made a Quake map before, modeling your house or office is not a bad idea. Yes, the map may suck for long term play or you may find that a carefully placed rocket launcher down a long hall gives you a sound advantage but it will help you get used to 3D modeling, texture mapping, and goodies placement in an environment you are already familiar with. You will probably scrap it later and truely develop a map with uniqueness to it but starting with the basics is never bad. Besides, if your office is in an older building, modeling it may create some interesting nooks and crannies you never knew existed and are helpful in designing.

As for which is better or easier, it all depends on the tool you use. I used to use WorldCraft to make Quake II levels all the time and found it an easier modeler to use than anything out there. But it was very much like other CAD software I had already used. I haven't played with the UR modeler yet but am planning on it. Learning to create the worlds isn't that hard. It just takes time and practice.

Greg

You're absolutely right. Modeling your home or office is great practice for map making. The map may not be fun to play, but it's a great warm-up exercise. And you have a "target" reference against which to judge your success: The environment around you.

I just wanted to make sure that he didn't get his hopes up that modeling his local cubicle farm would result in a fun deathmatch.

The map may not be fun to play

Yeah, I suppose having a map of the Empeg office would be pretty boring...

That was my intention... to use the work building as practice. Usually, my mind is either in "how-to" mode or "creative" mode. For example, when doing web design, I like to either work with pencil and paper and just brainstorm on abstract or creative ideas, OR I like to have the site owner tell me specifically what he/she wants so that all I have to worry about is "how to make it work".

Our work environment doesn't have an cubicles, so that may help in it's appeal! We have massive satellite uplink and downlink dishes, fiber racks, television studios, machine rooms, elevators, stairways etc etc. One reason we want to do it is because we are moving out of one of the buildings, so it would be a good momento!

Well, it looks like the general vote was to use UnRealEd, but I can't get the thing to run on my notebook (run time error?!). So if I can't get it running (off to the UnReal FAQ) it may be "back to the drawing board". I've noticed a lot of tutorials for each editor and am excited to start creating!

Thanks guys!

Well, it took me a while to build and learn, but here is my Unreal Map:

http://www.MotorCityImprov.com/brad/textures.zip and http://www.MotorCityImprov.com/brad/DMLorna9.zip

Thank you everyone who helped! I ended up going wtth UnReal by popular vote here at work and it comes with a free editor. The map is of where I work. I am still working on it, but it works pretty good as a DM map. The TV Studios and offices hold the weapons and the outside areas hold the health or armor. Bot support is prettty good for my first try. They kick my butt sometimes! I was going to make it bigger but we've only managed to play 3 or 4 player and were spending mroe time looking for one another rather than blowing each other up!