Unoffical empeg BBS

Quick Links: Empeg FAQ | RioCar.Org | Hijack | BigDisk Builder | jEmplode | emphatic
Repairs: Repairs

Topic Options
#41661 - 15/10/2001 12:01 PCWorld compares compression formats
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
See this PCWorld article. They compare (somewhat naively) in double-blind test, using non-audiophile ears, AAC, RA, MP3 and WMA. They conclude that MP3 is useless bellow 96 or 128 kb/s (we knew that), that WMA is overall inferior (we suspected that), but, somewhat suprisingly, find RaalAudio the best overall (if just slightly).

In all fairness I must add that at very low bitrates (say, 16-32 kb/s samples from CDNOW), where the question is not whether one can distinguish compressed version from the real thing, but is compressed version listenable even to get an idea what the original sounds like, I found WMA sounding much better than RA (they didn't test for that).

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

Top
#41662 - 15/10/2001 22:13 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: bonzi]
danthep
enthusiast

Registered: 29/08/1999
Posts: 209
Loc: new zealand
What, no ogg?


Top
#41663 - 15/10/2001 23:44 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: danthep]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Would a music encoder milkshake be an Ogg Nog?

I kill me

Murray
Go-Wit-Da-Fro
_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

Top
#41664 - 16/10/2001 00:01 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: muzza]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31584
Loc: Seattle, WA
Ugh.

___________
Tony Fabris
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#41665 - 16/10/2001 02:18 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: tfabris]
beaker
addict

Registered: 19/08/2000
Posts: 588
Loc: England
No, not Ugh... Ogg

Marcus (beaker)
32 gig (various colours)
_________________________
Marcus 32 gig MKII (various colours) & 30gig MKIIa

Top
#41666 - 16/10/2001 09:24 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: beaker]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31584
Loc: Seattle, WA
Argh.

___________
Tony Fabris
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#41667 - 16/10/2001 09:28 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: tfabris]
ClemsonJeep
enthusiast

Registered: 09/11/1999
Posts: 398
Loc: Ashburn, VA
No, not Argh... Ogg

(O|||||O)
_________________________
(O|||||O)

Top
#41668 - 16/10/2001 09:37 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: ClemsonJeep]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31584
Loc: Seattle, WA
Ooo!

___________
Tony Fabris
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#41669 - 16/10/2001 10:34 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: bonzi]
flashman
member

Registered: 20/09/2000
Posts: 133
Loc: U.S.
This test is useless.
It was subjective.
The MP3 encoder was not Fraunhofer's.
Actual file size advantages between codecs was not compared. (the only reason to bother with lower bitrates)
Other formats (not MP3) are not playable in most appliances other than a PC.
Just to name a few.
The whole thing is a joke.

I am so disapointed in PCworld.


12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue
_________________________
12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue 20Gb MKII 010101303 Green 20Gb MKII 090001020 Green 30Gb MKII 10101980 Blue

Top
#41670 - 16/10/2001 14:01 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: flashman]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
This test is useless. It was subjective.

Of course the test is subjective (if you mean by that that the criterion was listening, not measurement). Do you want to say that by looking into plots of two compression-mangled tunes (waveform, spectrum, whatever) you can say which sounds better? The whole purpose of lossy compression is to produce a file that sounds indistinguishable from the original in as little space as possible. If the test was realy double-blind as they claim, that is as objectively as you get.

The MP3 encoder was not Fraunhofer's.

OK, perhaps they sould have tested inventor's codec, as they did with others.

Actual file size advantages between codecs was not compared. (the only reason to bother with lower bitrates)

Er, perhaps I am wrong, but what else is there in the files except the audio stream? Doesn't 128kb/s mean exactly that, 128 kilobits of data per second of playtime?

Other formats (not MP3) are not playable in most appliances other than a PC.

At least one more is (if only for a handfull of 2.0 alpha testers ). They did not test how practical various codecs are, but how difficult it is to distinguish their result from the original.

Just to name a few. The whole thing is a joke.

As I said, the test was rather naive and did not address any of more subtle aspects of obtaining a good compression, but still has some value (at least for mass audience).

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

Top
#41671 - 16/10/2001 14:52 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: bonzi]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
That is amazing that only 1% of people were able to tell the difference between 128k and 192k mp3's!!

This reminds me of a test that Stereo Review magazine did in which it compared WRA, MP3 and minidisc's ATRAC.... The reviewers were a couple of audiophiles, a programer who worked for a major software developer (I believe it was someone who worked developing for Microsoft on WMA) and someone who was an audio engineer. They found that one person's test results were so random that he could only have been guessing. It was assumed that it was the computer programer doing WMA development. They didn't say who, but they threw out his figures in the review.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/SoundAndVision/FrameSet/0,1670,_sl_SoundAndVision_sl_Article_sl_0_cm_1653_cm_129_4395_1_cm_00,00.html

So... seems like A: most of us really can't tell the difference or B: if YOU can, don't get your audio advice from computer people! I think it was Hugo who said the empeg is one of the few devices that exsists in that wonderful place where technology geeks and audiophiles meet.

32GB Mk. II in a WRX
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com
_________________________
Brad B.

Top
#41672 - 16/10/2001 16:07 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31584
Loc: Seattle, WA
That is amazing that only 1% of people were able to tell the difference between 128k and 192k mp3's!!

It depends totally on the music being encoded. Certain pieces, I could tell you the difference between 192 and 320. Others, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 96 and 320.


___________
Tony Fabris
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#41673 - 16/10/2001 21:03 Re: PCWorld compares compression formats [Re: flashman]
mrmunsell
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/2001
Posts: 75
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I believe MusicMatch actually does use the FhG codec (at least the more recent releases of MM). However, I didn't see any mention of what version of MM they used or what modes they used (normal, high quality, etc).

I know I have seen various reports of known quality issues with the FhG codec that was used in MM releases around 5.0 and 6.0 - the issues crop up when using the high quality encoding modes, even at the higher rates... the main issue being pronounced high frequency distortion/artifacts. The last I remember seeing is that most of these were fixed in a newer version of the FhG codec that came in MM 6.1 or something.... . So if they don't have the latest and greatest MM release, this may have been a factor in their test results as well.




Top