Hi all,

now I finally have my long-awaited Empeg and got it installed in the car. So here's my feedback.

First of all, please don't flame me for the criticism, this is meant constructive. :) I will NOT trade my Empeg, I love it! Still, there are a few things where I though they should be fixed:

- the manual that ships with the Empeg _sucks_. That one definitely has to be made foolproof, especially for people that are not absolute pros with a computer. Just one example, a step-by-step tutorial for hooking up the Empeg to the computer with trouble-shooting notes is missing. I had to try a bit until I found out how that was all meant to be setup (of course, plug it into USB and it works - but I tried with networking first and nothing happened. Who told me that the unit needs networking setup before trying to use networking for the first time?) It's all there "somehow" but not in one place.

- the trouble shooting section in the manual should be extended

- The online manual in Emplode and the written manual differ a lot. They should contain the same information.

- Make Emplode itself and the manuals etc be online updateable, also include a check for new firmware!

- The usability of Emplode is uhm, well, down to a minimum. While Emplode does what it is supposed to, there are lots of things that could be improved (double clicking on a playlist entry brings up the properties of the item, double clicking on the same item in the tree does nothing, etc etc etc - there are quite a few things)

- The IR remote is really bad. I think that this one still ships because nobody got around to design a better one yet and the first one was probably a plain vanilla industry remote? The keys are hard to find and the layout is just plain illogical. (at least for my thinking)

- The player needs a usability check-up, too. Just one example: the left/right/down keys and the knob have duplicated functions, they basically all do the same. This unit has _so_ few keys, I'd prefer to have a better key assignment. At least if you're using the left/right keys to choose the tracks, they should keep that function no matter what (only exception _might_ be in the menu). Whenever you're adjusting the volume, you first have to exit the volume control screen before you can change the track. That sucks.

- You've got such a huge screen, use it! Except for the huge list of visuals (which may be cool but while driving I'd rather have information there) only the track info screen and the playlist screens make efficient use of it. I do like the feature that the menus show up kind of 3D, but the eye will always be focused on the top level so eventually there should be done something different too (I thought about clustered menus but I think that won't work)

- for some reason if I use files encoded with variable bitrate the skip forward/skip backward function doesn't work anymore

- one last thing not player-related: make the carrying bag just a little bit larger - the unit hardly fits - and add something for carrying it on your shoulders (it looked like you could in the pictures at the store)

Oh, and as for the IR thread that I saw going on somewhere else - how about adding a "learn new remote" feature. You enter learn mode, press a key on the old remote, then press a key on the new remote. That way the Empeg could easily learn (and not the remote would have to be "teachable").

Well, I think most points relate to software, which should be easy to fix. I really like the player itself, it seems to be pretty solid. Putting it into my car was quite a bit of fun as there was hardly any room for all the cables. :)

Till

1. while i know enough about computers to hook up the empeg, you are correct about the manual. this concern has been voiced before, though it hasen't come up for a while. one of the problems is that the software changes so much that it can be difficult to keep an up to date version, as well as the problems of keeping current copies distributed to customers. i do like your idea of emplode automatically checking for and downloading newer updated online help files.

also, with the release of 1.1 hopefully coming soon, it is kind of a waste of time and resources to write documentation when major changes are on the way. good points though.

2. i never had a problem with emplode. all of my mp3s were, for the most part, correctly tagged and already organized into artist and album playlists. except for some very infrequent spot tag corrections, the only thing i use emplode for is the rudimentary function of putting music onto the player.

you are in luck though. when version 1.1 comes out, it is bringing with it a total rewrite of emplode. the new one will have bug fixes, search capabilities, and more. try a bbs search for more info on what it contains.

3. unless there is something i don't know, the rio remote is basically a rebranded kenwood remote. before empeg was bought, all players shipped with the standard kenwood remote. wnen rio bought them, they used the same remotes, just put their name on them. someone correct me if i am wrong though.

anyway, you will find that the more you use the remote, like a bad song, it grows on you. it does seem akward at first, but as you use it, it really becomes second nature to use even the advanced stuff like song searching, etc.

4. regarding the control buttons, i am pretty happy with them. of course i rarely use them. i pretty much just keep the entire playlist shuffled, and ff or rew until i hear something i want to listen to. like emplode, it really depends on what you use it for. there was talk of user configurable menus and stuff like that, but i think even if that does happen, it is a long way off.

as for the volume and ff rew thing, this has also been mentioned before. unless i am mistaken, this is slated to be fixed in v 1.1

5. again, like #4, i just ff or rew until i find something i want to listen to. but that all depends on how YOU use the player. it is all really subjective.

6. this is a bug with the current mp3 deconding engine. the vb ff and rew will be fixed in v 1.1

7. can't comment b/c i don't own a carrying bag. i rarely take mine out of the car anymore.

thanks for the comments. it is always good to get feedback, both positve and negative. hopefully a few of these issues should be addressed in v 1.1. make good use of the bbs here. there are really alot of great folks who know what they are talking about.

jeremy

12 gig, green...

I'm going to assume that you have a brand new Rio - if you bought a second hand empeg player many of my comments would be different.

> the manual that ships with the Empeg _sucks_

Not a comment we hear often, but I suspect most of our owners don't even bother to read the manual. I'm glad someone has.

> The online manual in Emplode and the written manual differ a lot

Emplode has been re-written from scratch, as has the electronic help content - release 2.0 due for public beta late Q3.

> Make Emplode itself and the manuals etc be online updateable

Already in 2.0. It will check for new firmware as well.

> The usability of Emplode is uhm, well, down to a minimum

Emplode 2.0 is a very different animal.

> The IR remote is really bad

The Rio one? It's a custom remote (we used to ship a similar Kenwood part) which is of a similar format to many in-car remote controls. Do you want to pick out some specific illogical elements? Can't say I've had a problem with it (although it took a while to relearn as I was used to the Kenwood).

> the left/right/down keys and the knob have duplicated functions

Pressing the knob was never intended to bring up menus - this was a quick hack to get it doing something for 1.0. The intended functionality is for the knob to navigate sound related options, but there have been several wishlist suggestions that we will consider before releasing 2.0.

> Whenever you're adjusting the volume, you first have to exit the volume control screen before you
> can change the track

Already fixed in 2.0.

> You've got such a huge screen, use it!

I think even 1.0 makes pretty good use of the screen - 2.0 shows even more information. I get the impression it's the menus you have the biggest problem with - we're planning to move to something radically different around the end of this year (that won't make 2.0 though).

> for some reason if I use files encoded with variable bitrate the skip forward/skip backward function
> doesn't work anymore

Fixed in 2.0. We moved to ARM CODEC's, which as well as supporting VBR properly, also support WMA and WAV playback. By the way, track skipping in VBR with 1.0 is dependent on the encoder you used - I think there's a FAQ for it.

Thanks for the feedback, I hope 2.0 will address most of your concerns.

Rob

In reply to:

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the manual that ships with the Empeg _sucks_.

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Yup. My main beef when I got my Empeg was Emplode's on-line help which was... well.... terrible.

In reply to:

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You enter learn mode, press a key on the old remote, then press a key on the new remote

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Now that is a bloody good idea.

Nicholas

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18GB red s/n 080000299, original pos'n 8724. Reproduction of this post is not permitted.

Thanks for the answers, I'll be happy to test software 2.0. This is really one of the coolest things about the Empeg, that it's features are almost unlimited.

As for the remote, I'm sure that one can and will get used to it, but it's not really any joy fiddling around with it.

1. It is very thin and not ergonomic, at least it doesn't fit my hand very well. The buttons are laid out in such a way that my thumb is not able to diagonally cover the whole area. (at least not in a comfortable way)

2. The buttons are unsorted. They don't seem to follow a pattern (enlighten me if I just didn't find it yet :) )

3. The buttons are not "physically marked" so that you can feel where to turn on/off the unit, mute, etc

4. Volume, skip, "ok" and "menu" are placed away from each other. These usually are at the same spot.

5. The "functionality" buttons are spread all across the remote and mostly also need a two-button combo.

My suggestions:

-> Make it ergonomic. If you don't want to grow the unit, at least make it so that it fits a typical human's hand (you have to be able to reach 90% of the functionality instantly with your thumb)

-> In addition to ergonomy, mark the buttons so that you can distinguish them in the dark. Eventually light them (would be a cool plus but if it takes too much battery then don't)

-> Use a ring button that can be pressed at 4 positions for track/volume control. The middle of the ring button should contain another button that serves as "ok" button. These two buttons would actually then be 5 buttons and allow for track/playlist/menu navigation. At the lower left (lower right for left-handed folks) to the ring should be the cancel button so that it is easy to reach. Right above the ring, place buttons for mute and power.

Look at a Loewe TV remote control for a very good example of this! (German manufacturer, don`t know about exports)

I can post pictures here if anybody wants to.

-> Organize the search so that it offers a menu to select the search mode without having to press a two-button combo on the remote. If wanted/needed, the remote should have two direct access buttons to this search menu (just needs a "select search mode up&down").

-> then compress the alpha-numeric pad on smaller space so that it is quicker to enter stuff. Btw, where`s the space key? I found out that it's not really needed because the search function automatically skips spaces, however, that is pretty "unintuitive" (right word?)

So far for the remote. :)

As for the screen, just one remark: the screen layout is probably a matter of taste indeed, however, I like the fact that most today`s radios use a set of icons to quickly display status information. I'd like to see a set of icons on the player, too.

Such as: battery mode, source/tuner, muted, clock (I know this has been discussed already), traffic info from tuner etc.

Oh btw, why doesn't the unit allow for a display of the remaining song time? Matter of taste, too, though.

Till

1: IMHO the slimness is good; I hate fat klunky remotes :-) I have rather large hands and no
problems reaching the keys with my thumb.
2 - 5: I think there's only so much sorting/grouping and functionality you can press into a 6x4
grid, something is bound to end up where it is not optimal...

There are other remotes that work with the empeg (after adding some third party software),
more or less ergonomical, that have been discussed on the board, try a search for 'remote'

As to marking the buttons, if not outright on the keys, maybe some markers in style with the
little nubbins on the 'f' and 'j' keys on many keyboards?
I tend to do an subconcious count, third row from the left 4th key from top... (currently relearning
that as I just received a MkII...) I orient the remote by feel by feeling the battery compartment
latch and/or the pit for the IR LED.

Ring button - would be nice, but depending on what designs are available for reuse it might
require a totally custom design...

Space - the search function will also skip a leading 'The', non-alphanumeric characters like
dashes, parens etc and fold accented characters (like åäö, for instance) into their base characters.
This is also somewhat non-intuitive and should be mentioned in the docs (don't know if it is)

Icons... has been discussed before, Wire (Lars Karlslund) showed some ideas
to the empeg guys at the second Amersfoort user meet, don't know if icons are in the future plans.
Myself, I don't like icons very much... most of the time I find I have to guess what the symbology
means - or hover with the mouse and hope there's a descriptive balloon text...
It is hard to make a symbol set that is easy to read and clear to all (or at least most)
groups of people.
However, a feature to localize the texts in the menus could be nice for those unfamiliar with english.

Remaining time - will IIRC be in 1.1 (oops, make that 2.0 now... time to change the mantra ;-)
both for the individual song and the whole playlist

/Michael

unless there is something i don't know, the rio remote is basically a rebranded kenwood remote. before empeg was bought, all players shipped with the standard kenwood remote. wnen rio bought them, they used the same remotes, just put their name on them. someone correct me if i am wrong though.

I'm correcting you.

The Rio remote may be the same size and shape as the Kenwood remote, but it uses a completely different set of IR codes and has been completely re-written to exclusively control the Empeg Car player.

The Rio remote has a much better button layout, and the functions are all correctly and logically labeled.

In fact, from the tone of the original post in this thread, I would guess he somehow got a Kenwood remote instead of a Rio remote. His complaints sounded like the kind of complaints you would expect to hear about the Kenwood one.

___________
Tony Fabris

> I would guess he somehow got a Kenwood remote instead of a Rio remote

I wondered the same thing - tigloo, can you confirm if your remote control is branded Kenwood or Rio? Also, is your player brand new from Rio or is it a second hand empeg unit?

There was a comment that Menu and OK are too far apart - I don't have a remote in front of me, but on the Rio unit I thought these were actually the same button..?

Rob

one last thing not player-related: make the carrying bag just a little bit larger - the unit hardly fits - and add something for carrying it on your shoulders (it looked like you could in the pictures at the store)

Before the Empeg carrying cases were available, I put mine in a Case Logic PDC-1 bag. This bag was slightly larger than the empeg bag (as you suggested) and it also had a shoulder strap (as you suggested).

However, the shoulder strap turned out to be a problem.

I had the unit on my shoulder as I was getting out of the car one day, and it slipped off my shoulder and fell to the pavement. The bag was not padded enough to fully protect the unit and it cracked the faceplate.

Since getting the empeg bag, I have never dropped it. Something about its smaller size and the way the handles are designed makes it very stable and hard to drop when I'm handling it. I much prefer the Empeg bag for this reason.

The fact that the bag is small and fits snugly around the player is also a good thing. Yours is new, and it will loosen up over time. Eventually, you will be able to put the empeg away very quickly with no effort. If I lay the case open on the passenger seat, I can pull the empeg from the dash, put it in the bag, and zip it up, all with one hand.

Note: when inserting the empeg into the bag, make sure to open both zippers all the way to the hilt. If you only open the zippers part-way, it will stress the zipper at whatever point you "stopped" at (usually the bottom corners). On my first bag, I eventually wore out the zipper doing this. Now I know better and I'm taking better care of my new bag.

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Tony Fabris

Thanks for the answers, I'll be happy to test software 2.0.

And you will be able to do so. Empeg releases public betas of their player software. 1.03 went through several rounds of public betas before they finalized it.

The buttons are not "physically marked" so that you can feel where to turn on/off the unit, mute, etc

You're telling me. I complained about that one until I was blue in the face. Fact is, from the particular manufacturer they were using, they had no way of changing the physical shape of the remote or the buttons. I agree that one with contoured buttons or an asymmetrical button layout would be more ergonomic, but it just wasn't an option for them at design time.

In the meantime, some of the folks on the BBS have suggested putting a tiny drop of 5-minute epoxy on the "OK" button so you can feel a bump as you're handling the remote. I've tried this, and it works extremely well. The only drawback is that the drop of glue eventually falls off and you have to re-do it.

The good thing is, most of the other features you're looking for will be in the next software release.

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Tony Fabris

In reply to:

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I wondered the same thing - tigloo, can you confirm if your remote control is branded Kenwood or Rio? Also, is your player brand new from Rio or is it a second hand empeg unit?

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This is a brand new Rio (remember, I'm the one who was astonished by Rio's service and delivery speed as well as the one who had problems with the installation in an Arosa).

The remote has a Rio logo at the top and at the bottom it says "Digital Audio Player Remote", "ERC-1A".

As for the buttons, I'm sorry, "Menu" and "ok" are indeed the same button, I meant "cancel" instead of "ok".

Till

In reply to:

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The fact that the bag is small and fits snugly around the player is also a good thing. Yours is new, and it will loosen up over time. Eventually, you will be able to put the empeg away very quickly with no effort. If I lay the case open on the passenger seat, I can pull the empeg from the dash, put it in the bag, and zip it up, all with one hand.

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If it will losen up, it's ok, I will just wait some time then. Right now I need both hands and it's an effort to push the Empeg into the bag - the first two or three times I wasn't even able to close the zippers.

Till

the software changes so much that it can be difficult to keep an up to date version, as well as the problems of keeping current copies distributed to customers.

I proposed what I thought was a pretty good solution to this dilemma about nine months ago -- see here.

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

I find that if you put the display side into the bag first (towards the front), it's easier to get the player in and out of the bag.


Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg