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#300590 - 15/07/2007 03:23 Thermodynamics-ish puzzle?
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Okay, I bought a JVC KD-HDR1 car stereo unit with HD radio. Among other things, it lets me listen to BBC off the air anytime I like (compliments of a local NPR affiliate's digital sub-channels). After hooking it up for a while at home, I thought I would install it on my boat. The sound quality improvement of FM stations is noticeable.

This unit is now available for $200 which I think is a steal. The one thing that concerned me was that the JVC runs *incredibly* hot. You could fry an egg on it. Other buyers of this unit have noted that.

The incredible heat of the JVC made me wonder if it might be gulping amps; this is a particular concern on a sailboat. I don't really want to run the engine to charge batteries to keep the stereo going.

So I got my multimeter and did a comparison of the existing modest Kenwood receiver and the JVC. With both of them warmed up and volume set low, the Kenwood showed 4.0A draw while the JVC was pulling just 0.8A!

I know there are a lot of other variables here that I might try to solve for, but I am just puzzled. The JVC seems to sound fine when I crank it up, so it is putting out *some* energy that isn't heat, but it just seems like it would have to pull more amperage to heat the case up to such a remarkable degree. What basic principle of solid state electronics am I overlooking?

(If I decide that I am happy with the JVC I may buy another for the car for my "phase 2" Empeg reinstall with the display extender.)
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Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#300591 - 15/07/2007 16:45 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: jimhogan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
Dismantle the thing and locate the component that's producing all the heat?
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Tony Fabris

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#300592 - 16/07/2007 12:13 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: jimhogan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
You don't have to look to solid-state electronics for a reason to question, only the first law of thermodynamics. The device is consuming electrical power. It must therefore be generating an equivalent amount of energy. Nothing in the device is moving, I would assume, so there's no kinetic energy. There's probably a few LEDs or something producing some light, but not much. Hopefully there's no non-visible EM radiation, or at least very little. That leaves heat. But you'd assume that that would be the same for both stereos.

Are you sure you measured the current properly? You have to break the circuit and put your ammeter in it in-line. Was the JVC hot when you measured it? How long does it take to get hot?
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Bitt Faulk

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#300593 - 16/07/2007 16:35 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
Oo hey here's a thought. Does the new stereo have a built-in amplifier that is perhaps one of those fancy high-power amplifiers? Maybe it's a different kind of amplification technology that generates heat (and the corresponding increase in current draw) even when it's not outputting tons of sound.
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Tony Fabris

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#300594 - 16/07/2007 19:01 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: jimhogan]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Better heat dissipation, to air or to the mounting, on the Kenwood?

Uneven current? Perhaps the Kenwood draws peaks of 4A with a very low duty cycle (i.e. averaging a very low current -- probably a switch-mode PSU would do this), the JVC's current is steady, and your ammeter isn't averaging the Kenwood current in the way you might hope?

Peter

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#300595 - 16/07/2007 22:37 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: wfaulk]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
You don't have to look to solid-state electronics for a reason to question, only the first law of thermodynamics. The device is consuming electrical power. It must therefore be generating an equivalent amount of energy. Nothing in the device is moving, I would assume, so there's no kinetic energy. There's probably a few LEDs or something producing some light, but not much. Hopefully there's no non-visible EM radiation, or at least very little. That leaves heat. But you'd assume that that would be the same for both stereos.
Yup. Electronics esoterica aside, it just seems like it would have to consume more electricity to produce such profound heat.

Quote:
Are you sure you measured the current properly? You have to break the circuit and put your ammeter in it in-line. Was the JVC hot when you measured it? How long does it take to get hot?

I'm confident in my in-line ammeter. Now I haven't done a test from a cold start, though. I need to double-check, but I *think* heat stays the same regardless of input source (tuner versus CD/AUX)
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Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#300596 - 16/07/2007 22:42 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: tfabris]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
Oo hey here's a thought. Does the new stereo have a built-in amplifier that is perhaps one of those fancy high-power amplifiers? Maybe it's a different kind of amplification technology that generates heat (and the corresponding increase in current draw) even when it's not outputting tons of sound.

I'm going to compare their specs, but they are similar from a WPC standpoint. And the JVC gets cooking hot even with volume turned all the way down. The one thing that is obviously different about the JVC is the HD tuner. Perhaps the tuner is madly processing 1s and 0s even if I am listening to a CD?
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#300597 - 16/07/2007 22:48 Re: Thermodynamics-ish puzzle? [Re: peter]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
Better heat dissipation, to air or to the mounting, on the Kenwood?

I measured both "on the bench" more or less -- completely exposed on the nav table on my boat. The cases look pretty unremarkable and similar....

Quote:
Uneven current? Perhaps the Kenwood draws peaks of 4A with a very low duty cycle (i.e. averaging a very low current -- probably a switch-mode PSU would do this), the JVC's current is steady, and your ammeter isn't averaging the Kenwood current in the way you might hope?

Peter

Now I hadn't even thought of that. I've got a decent Fluke DMM, but I have no clue about cycling and averaging with respect to different PSUs. I suppose one "real world" way to figure that out is hook 'em both up and see how long each one takes to completely kill a Type 27 deep-cycle battery!
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Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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