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#300387 - 07/07/2007 23:49 Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
I'm looking for a modest and discreet living room audio solution and I need a little advice.

I think a Squeezebox 3 will be all I need as an audio source. Predominantly, we just want mp3 playback, but occasional (Internet) radio (BBC R1 and Virgin) will be handy.
I'm still open to suggestions on alternative sources here - I prefer a networked solution based around my current mp3 collection and it would be a bonus not to have to maintain a separate set of files just for the living room.

I have CAT5e sockets strategically placed around the living room but I'll probably use the Squeezebox on wireless just to save a wire! We want a minimalist solution that's as unobtrusive as is reasonably possible.

The biggest problem is that I'm getting bogged down while looking at amp/speaker choices. Realistically, I want to keep the amp/speaker budget within £200 (~$400USD) but that's way more money than the £50-£100 I'd originally earmarked for this "simple" end of the solution! The more I look at it, the more it seems I'm faced with spending. Perhaps there's a cheap and straightforward solution I'm missing here?

The majority of powered speakers are either iPod-orientated or PC speakers. My instincts tell me that PC speakers are optimised for a listener within 18" - 2' and they'll be rubbish at 8 - 10', but maybe I'm wrong on this?

One of the rat holes I went down led me to the Bose ACOUSTIMASS® 3 stereo speaker system. Aside from the cost (£200), I really like these because, once the subwoofer is hidden away, the speakers are tiny (~7cm). But then I'd need an amplifier of some sort which adds cost and to the real estate of the whole end solution.

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#300388 - 08/07/2007 08:34 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: AndrewT]
Schido
enthusiast

Registered: 29/03/2005
Posts: 364
Loc: Probably lost somewhere in Wal...
I have a set of teufel e2's for my pc / whole room audio.

http://teufel.de/

They mainly make home cinema, and pc speakers, but stereo too.

Teufel can only be ordered straight from the factory in germany, they cater for almost every budget,

from 119€ for


to 5399€ for

The site is in german ( "English Website - soon" ) You can mail them in english though.
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#300389 - 08/07/2007 10:29 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: AndrewT]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
I want to keep the amp/speaker budget within £200 (~$400USD) but that's way more money than the £50-£100 I'd originally earmarked for this "simple" end of the solution! The more I look at it, the more it seems I'm faced with spending. Perhaps there's a cheap and straightforward solution I'm missing here?

These £50 speakers are very good, for an amp see if you can find a UK stockist for the Sonic Impact T-amp (US$30, PSU not included) which uses a similar integrated amplifier chip to the one in the Rio Receiver, which always punched well above its weight. Or again just see what Richer Sounds can do you, though they don't seem to have a name-brand integrated amp under £100.

Peter

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#300390 - 08/07/2007 14:22 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: peter]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I'll second the plug for the T-amp. I used one of these when I was sick of the lame computer speakers that I'd previously had. It's got enough power to drive a pair of conventional 2-way bookshelf speakers that I put next to my monitor. For filling a larger room with sound, though, you may find that it doesn't quite have enough power.

(Aside: the clever part of the T-amp is that it's using one of these new class D amplifiers. That's often incorrectly interpreted as "digital" but it's really just a switching power supply, in much the same fashion as what's running your computer. Class D amps, as a rule, tend to run radically cooler than traditional amps, consume far less power, and tend to be very, very accurate in their amplification. Of course, you get what you pay for. Don't expect miracles from a $15 amp.)

The next step up is probably a low-end Panasonic receiver. The Panasonic SA-XR55S (Amazon link, $199) also has a class-D amp and, as you can see from the Amazon reviews, does a very competent job. Most important for you, it will happily digest the digital output from your Squeezebox, and you don't have to worry about putting the Squeezebox on top, as it's not a space heater like traditional amps.

That consumes about half of your $400 budget. $200 is enough to get a semi-decent set of two-way bookshelf speakers. As you might imagine, this is a very personal decision, and there are huge numbers of vendors competing for your money. As a first cut, you should sort out where you want your speakers to go in the room, particularly whether they'll be up against a wall, in a bookcase, or whatever else. This will help you decide either for or against various features. If, for example, you're actually putting your speakers in a bookshelf full of books, then the last thing you want is a rear-facing port, even though it might sound better in the store when it's sitting a foot out from the back wall. To pick a random example, you can get some basic JBL two-way speakers (Amazon link, $128) or even some larger, floor-standing models (Amazon link, $193). Of course, you can spend arbitrarily more money on speakers.

My advice for speaker shopping: burn a mix CD with tunes you know well, pay a visit to your local, snooty audiophile stereo shop, and start listening. You might be able to get a great deal on "last year's model" or even used gear (sometimes resold on consignment) that still fits the budget.

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#300391 - 08/07/2007 14:52 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: AndrewT]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Given your original budget you *must* listen to the Acoustic Energy Aego M system.
http://www.ripcaster.co.uk/node/100
(Yes he sells the Squeezebox too.)

It's simply *fantastic* for the price - £99
It can be a *teeny* bit uncontrolled in the bass - but < £100?
[edit - this is an active system - ie it includes the amplifier for that price]

The main speakers are cast metal and about 2" x 3" x 3" - incredibly small - we use it as a portable 'dance' system.

Actually, it is probably better than my Squeezebox-sourced £225 lounge setup of Cambridge Audio A1 amp + Wharfdale speakers from Richer Sounds - the amp is probably the weak point there.

Doesn't touch the Cyrus2 and the B&W 110is (18/20 years old!!) in the hifi room though

If you get down to Reading feel free to drop in and listen to ours.

My Sonic T did sound amazing - right up until it became a mono-amp It used to get very very hot too.

(Nb, since I realised I'd mentioned 3 hifi systems so far I thought "why stop now..." - we also have JPWs+Sony amp in the study and a squeezebox+Rotel amp + waterproof 6" in the bathroom, oh and we have an Aego2 in the bedroom - and it is just as good as the new Aego M. Haven't got speakers for the Rio Receiver in the spare room...yet ! )

Don't touch Bose - waste of money. Google "Bose is crap"

Ah, just buy the Aego M. It's exactly in your original budget and you'll love it
If you keep an eye out on eBay, the original Aego2 comes up every now and again for £50-£70.


Edited by LittleBlueThing (09/07/2007 05:57)

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#300392 - 08/07/2007 16:09 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: LittleBlueThing]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

Don't touch Bose - waste of money. Google "Bose is crap"


Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 259,000 for Bose is crap.
Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 2,330,000 for Bose is great.



P.S. I have no personal experience of whether Bose's consumer stuff is crap out not, I used to use some of their professional/semi-professional stuff (802s/302s) back in the 80s/90s and that was great stuff to use, if a little quirky.
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#300393 - 08/07/2007 17:41 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: andy]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Yes - that's the problem - they've had a good name in the past and their high end (studio) gear was (is?) good.

Favourable comments about them are numerous - they have a 'lifestyle' image <shrug>

The negative comments are usually from people who know about decent sound and have reviewed them.

I've heard them and they sound great initially - but they have a very sharp sound with emphatic bass - critical listening suggests that they really aren't that good - and they are certainly overpriced - but then again people buy goods for 'image' reasons aswell as practical (heck, look at my car <grin> !!!)

This is one I think I recall being reasonably well presented http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html
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#300394 - 08/07/2007 18:30 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: LittleBlueThing]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
but then again people buy goods for 'image' reasons aswell as practical (heck, look at my car <grin> !!!)


Which reminds me, I think I might be buying a Tuscan later this year...

...or maybe a Tamora.
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#300395 - 09/07/2007 05:49 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: andy]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:
Quote:
but then again people buy goods for 'image' reasons aswell as practical (heck, look at my car <grin> !!!)


Which reminds me, I think I might be buying a Tuscan later this year...

...or maybe a Tamora.

You won't regret it !!!!

(well, maybe you will - but you get over that )

Feel free to contact me to chat about it - we've never had a Tamora but we've had S3, Chimaeras, Cerbera and Tuscan...

Oh, and I know how to get a great Empeg install in the Tuscan in case that sways you
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#300396 - 23/07/2007 20:00 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: AndrewT]
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, I'm now the proud (and happy) owner of a Squeezebox 3 and the Accoustic Energy Aego M speaker system.

The Sonic T amp was very tempting, but the Aego's integrated sub/amplifier appealed more because it reduced the amount of hardware*. I was also concerned a little about the heat output. That said, now that I know about the Sonic T, I think it's only a matter of time before I find an excuse to buy one for one of the bedrooms!

One of the supermarkets was selling a £99 Sony CD/tuner "HiFi" system and I was tempted by that. In the end I decided that the included features that I didn't need (CD, tuner, shiny fascia and display) must surely be compromising the features I really wanted.

The comments about Bose (thanks especially to LBT here) were a bit of an eye opener. I'm unsure how, in my mind, Bose was such a great brand. I suspect it could have been from 20-25 years ago when I was really into HiFi's, maybe they were good back then (a bit like Bush was a great brand)? I regularly see Bose adverts on the back cover of my monthly Sky TV magazine, and it had always struck me as odd why they offer a monthly payment plan by default (with a free trial period) without actually printing a price!


* I did also spend a little more time looking into HiFi stuff that I really wanted, as opposed to what I knew would "just get the job done" and keep SWMBO happy at the same time!


We haven't had 'sounds' in the living room for some years and it has been great to be able to discuss an artist (or a song/derivative/cover version etc.) and then effortlessly call it up on the Squeezebox. I think there's a good chance that now we're (both) beginning to re-acquaint ourselves with living room "HiFi", on the next amp/speaker iteration we'll be prepared to invest more money and real estate on the solution. Unless someone introduces an affordable 'killer player' product, I think the Squeezebox will be with us for some time!

Once I've spent more time on it I'll probably come back here and comment further on the Aego speakers and Squeezebox (the speakers were out of stock and only arrived at the weekend).

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#300397 - 24/07/2007 16:13 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: AndrewT]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Quote:


The Sonic T amp was very tempting, but the Aego's integrated sub/amplifier appealed more because it reduced the amount of hardware*. I was also concerned a little about the heat output. That said, now that I know about the Sonic T, I think it's only a matter of time before I find an excuse to buy one for one of the bedrooms!




I wanted to put in my little review of the Sonic. That thing is a powerhouse! I got one a couple weeks ago to pair with these budget speakers: Insignia NS-B2111 speakers

I powered those with the Sonic at full volume for nearly 8 hours in my back yard for a cookout. They are still going strong on just the 8 AA batteries and it sounds awesome.
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#300398 - 24/07/2007 16:54 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: ithoughti]
morrisdl
enthusiast

Registered: 21/08/2000
Posts: 346
Loc: Rochester, NY USA
I have been really happy with my ORB Audio speakers. The build and sound quality exceeded my expectations. I have a 13' X 26' media room. I was so impressed with the sound levels, I have split the 2 front speakers to make a 5.1 into a 7.1 surround sound setup. I still might get a 2nd sub, but the wife has already said one rocks the house too much. www.orbaudio.com
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#300399 - 24/07/2007 17:00 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: LittleBlueThing]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

You won't regret it !!!!

(well, maybe you will - but you get over that )

Feel free to contact me to chat about it - we've never had a Tamora but we've had S3, Chimaeras, Cerbera and Tuscan...

Oh, and I know how to get a great Empeg install in the Tuscan in case that sways you


We are renting a Tuscan Mk2 for a week from Rio Prestige http://www.rioprestige.com/ to do a lap of Scotland. That should request in either a Tuscan purchase, or never wanting to get into a TVR ever again.
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#300400 - 24/07/2007 18:14 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: ithoughti]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
I wanted to put in my little review of the Sonic. That thing is a powerhouse! I got one a couple weeks ago to pair with these budget speakers: Insignia NS-B2111 speakers

Wow, those look really great. I'd probably end up getting those if my 4.1 Klipsch ProMedias ever quit on me (though they've been running strong for almost eight years now).

I know this isn't quite what was put forth in the original post, but in the spirit of these high-quality, low-cost, good value speakers, I'd just like to mention Fluance. Their SX-HTB+ system came highly recommended from the folks at Home Theater Spot when it comes to great sound for low cost. I took their advice and I'm glad I did. They sound great. Sometime I'll have to pick up their subwoofer, which runs the same cost as the 5-channel package

Question: can anyone recommend a good amp in the same vain? Something that really delivers a bang for the buck. I'd like to spend under $250 if possible.
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#300401 - 26/07/2007 06:53 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: andy]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
You are going to enjoy that - great roads, great views!!


Just be careful - the biggest cause of accidents in new Tuscan drivers seems to be overtaking - and you'll get a lot of that up there

Probably teaching grandma but most cars you accelerate and pull out at the same time. Do that harshly in a Tuscan even at 70+mph with a damp road or cold tyres and you can *easily* spin the wheels and spin off. Pull out and accelerate in a straight line. I've felt this and just don't want you to get hurt
Also don't ever forget there's no ABS - if you've been used to it you react differently.

Hmm, I don't sound encouraging - but that's not a problem - you'll be grinning ear to ear all the time!!!

I expect piccies and demands to come see my Empeg install in more detail!!
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#300402 - 26/07/2007 09:37 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: LittleBlueThing]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

Probably teaching grandma but most cars you accelerate and pull out at the same time. Do that harshly in a Tuscan even at 70+mph with a damp road or cold tyres and you can *easily* spin the wheels and spin off. Pull out and accelerate in a straight line. I've felt this and just don't want you to get hurt



I am also going to need to be careful when dropping a gear to overtake. I know of a couple of Tuscan owners who early in their ownership spun on quiet dual carriage ways doing this. They were caught out by the lack of a big flywheel and so unexpected amounts of engine braking when lifting the clutch after dropping down a gear.

I'm used to a fairly light flywheel on the Impreza, but at least there all four wheels get the same level of engine braking when you lift the clutch.

Quote:

Also don't ever forget there's no ABS - if you've been used to it you react differently.



Helpfully I am used to that from the MX5. Had to control a 60mph slide under braking the other day when I cam round a corner to find some idiot attempting a suicidal overtaking manuouver coming the other direction.

Should be fun...
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#300403 - 26/07/2007 13:25 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: andy]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Quote:

I am also going to need to be careful when dropping a gear to overtake.

And braking into roundabouts (the curve in the last few feet with all the weight on the front and a change-down really can unsettle it).

Quote:

I'm used to a fairly light flywheel on the Impreza, but at least there all four wheels get the same level of engine braking when you lift the clutch.

I once drove a friends Impreza and was taking it gently. Then I realised I had my foot to the floor and was redlining it up the gears
It was a lot more stable than the Tuscan and probably handles better too. The Tuscan is twitchy and squirmy (see above).

Quote:

Helpfully I am used to that from the MX5. Had to control a 60mph slide under braking the other day when I cam round a corner to find some idiot attempting a suicidal overtaking manuouver coming the other direction.

Should be fun...

Eeeek. I know what you mean. Just coming home now some dipshit goes into a dual-carriageway roundabout in the left lane, me on the right, comes out straight ahead in the right lane leaving me the central reservation. And she didn't even realise - sigh.

When are you planning on going?
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#300404 - 26/07/2007 15:06 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: andy]
TigerJimmy
old hand

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
Quote:

I am also going to need to be careful when dropping a gear to overtake. I know of a couple of Tuscan owners who early in their ownership spun on quiet dual carriage ways doing this. They were caught out by the lack of a big flywheel and so unexpected amounts of engine braking when lifting the clutch after dropping down a gear.

I'm used to a fairly light flywheel on the Impreza, but at least there all four wheels get the same level of engine braking when you lift the clutch.


Before you go, you may want to practice making proper "racing" down changes in your impreza. When you declutch for the down change, you want to "blip" the throttle to raise the engine speed to what it will need to be in the lower gear. You engage the clutch when the engine speed matches what it should be for the gear you're entering. Theoretically, you should do this with upshifts, too, but it is less of a problem (no blip required, you just engage the clutch at the correct moment -- neither too soon or too late).

This can be done under braking, but its difficult to do while applying steady pressure on the brake. The technique is called "heel and toe" downchanging, but when you actually do it you sort of roll your right foot over onto the accelerator while the left side of your right foot uses the brake pedal. Doing this well takes years of practice.

"Rev matching" your down changes takes a day or so of practice. You can get it to the point where the only evidence of the down change is the increased noise of the higher engine speed.

When you get that good at it, you will find that it is not necessary to even use the clutch. The easiest way to start learning is to work on your upshift from 3rd to 4th without the clutch. You let off the throttle, and for a brief moment before the engine braking kicks in, your geartrain is "unloaded", meaning there is neither accelerating or decelerating torque. At this moment, you pull the lever out of gear. Wait until the engine speed drops to the exact speed it will be in the next gear, then firmly pull the lever into 4th. This is very easy from 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th. Harder from 2nd to 3rd and very difficult from 1st to 2nd (this is because the engine speed differential is less and the torque differential is less; you need to be more exact in the lower gears because the synchronizer rings in the gearbox can only provide so much torque).

To downshift without the clutch, you pull the lever out of 4th, "blip" the throttle, then push it into 3rd at just the right moment when the "revs match". This is what you should be doing when you use the clutch, also. It minimizes wear on the clutch and it minimizes the torque jerk on the rear wheels. Anyhow, with some practice, you can drive to work in rush hour never using the clutch -- as long as you don't come to a complete stop. So, what is the function of the clutch? It is there to start & stop the car, and to cover up any tiny errors you make matching your gear changes.

Smoothness is the key to performance driving, and gear changes are no exception (in fact, they're probably the most important). Besides all that, matching up correctly adds a ton of fun to driving!

The people who spin out on a downchange are just putting the clutch in, ham-handedly slamming it into a lower gear, then dumping out the clutch suddenly. It's not the engine braking that spins them, exactly. Well, it is, but its the sudden jerk they get when the engine needs to race up to the correct speed. This can be completely eliminated with correct technique. You can drive a Camry like that, but if you do that in a race car you break it. It's not good for the Camry, either, its just that they don't have enough torque to damage anything. Power requires some finesse.

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#300405 - 27/07/2007 07:11 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: TigerJimmy]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
Great post - all very true!

Quote:

When you get that good at it, you will find that it is not necessary to even use the clutch. The easiest way to start learning is to work on your upshift from 3rd to 4th without the clutch. You let off the throttle, and for a brief moment before the engine braking kicks in, your geartrain is "unloaded", meaning there is neither accelerating or decelerating torque. At this moment, you pull the lever out of gear. Wait until the engine speed drops to the exact speed it will be in the next gear, then firmly pull the lever into 4th. This is very easy from 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th. Harder from 2nd to 3rd and very difficult from 1st to 2nd (this is because the engine speed differential is less and the torque differential is less; you need to be more exact in the lower gears because the synchronizer rings in the gearbox can only provide so much torque).

To downshift without the clutch, you pull the lever out of 4th, "blip" the throttle, then push it into 3rd at just the right moment when the "revs match". This is what you should be doing when you use the clutch, also. It minimizes wear on the clutch and it minimizes the torque jerk on the rear wheels. Anyhow, with some practice, you can drive to work in rush hour never using the clutch -- as long as you don't come to a complete stop. So, what is the function of the clutch? It is there to start & stop the car, and to cover up any tiny errors you make matching your gear changes.


Not sure I'd try recommend learning this in a hired Tuscan in the middle of the Scottish highlands

This is how I change gear on a bike - but they don't have a neutral between gears - I don't do it in cars because the neutral can allow too much rev discrepancy - and it's *my* gearbox . TVR did offer a sequential box at one point - not sure how many people ever actually had it fitted though.

It's a good heel'n'toe car though - the pedalbox is adjustable too.
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#300406 - 27/07/2007 08:09 Re: Amp/speaker advice needed for modest living room setup [Re: TigerJimmy]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Thanks for that. I do already try to match revs when down changing, sometimes I manage it better than others...

I'm much better at it in my MX5, there is something about the Impreza clutch that I have never quite mastered properly

Whenever I have tried proper heel and toeing it has never really worked out too well. I need to go and find a nice big airfield to practice it on one day.
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