#286580 - 11/09/2006 14:30
Privacy and Security on Flights
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Well, privacy on flights might soon be a thing of the past. According to a London Times article, there is a group working on a 'hijack proof' airliner. Some of the improvements are microphones that listen in on the passengers and computerized CCTV systems that automatically detect suspicious behaviour. Fun times! 
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#286581 - 12/09/2006 09:40
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: Tim]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Oh dear god!
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#286582 - 12/09/2006 10:09
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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"I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission." - HAL
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#286583 - 12/09/2006 12:14
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: pgrzelak]
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enthusiast
Registered: 18/12/2000
Posts: 342
Loc: South-West-Germany
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Once again... wiping Coke from my screen... and strange looking cow-orkers...  although it's sad and dissapointing, that we drift towards big brother HAL...
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cheers, Thomas
new owner of the MK1 00123
MK2 12GB 090000815 (my first one)
MK2a 040103735 (from 303) and ???
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#286584 - 12/09/2006 12:46
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: speedy67]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Clearly, they're working on a wide variety of different mechanisms, and most of them will go no further than the lab. The mechanisms I like best are the ones that go inside the cockpit. Pilots already can change their transponder code to (quietly) indicate "I'm being hijacked". Take that to the next level, and allow for remote controls, better authentication, and so forth. The intriguing question, of course, is whether the remote control interface, itself, is a new vulnerability of significant concern.
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#286585 - 12/09/2006 13:07
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Okay. It is a little slow at the office at the moment. You can tell when I start thinking of responses like... Quote:
Take that to the next level, and allow for remote controls, better authentication, and so forth. The intriguing question, of course, is whether the remote control interface, itself, is a new vulnerability of significant concern.
Response #1: (setting - the 2007 empeg meet) "Patrick! Where did you get such a great remote control plane???"
General thought: Star Trek and command prefix codes for various ships.
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#286586 - 12/09/2006 13:20
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: DWallach]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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There are some 'associate' systems developed for military aircraft. These systems look at the known threat in the area (detected), and based on the threat and the geography of the area, determine where the threat can and can't see. The system then plots a course to keep the aircraft out of the range/line of sight of the threat.
I saw a couple proposals for converting that technology for use in commercial liners. They would have the associate systems take control and prevent the pilot from controlled flight into terrain or buildings. Something like that would be a lot easier to swallow than cameras and microphones throughout the cabin, keeping an eye and ear on the passengers.
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#286587 - 12/09/2006 19:03
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: Tim]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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All of this ignores that the problem is the cockpit door. If the pilots had a separate door from the outside, and there was no passthrough between the bulkhead aft of the cockpit, it would solve the highjacking problems for good. There could be a bloodbath in the passenger compartment, but it would accomplish nothing.
Of course, this would amount to an admission that the pilots are just bus drivers and having them crawl around the passenger compartment to fix or diagnose a problem (like they supposedly did in the old days) is just fantasy.
A small, armored, pass-through door like a revolving darkroom door which is only controlled from the cockpit would be all that is necessary for them to get everything they need from the passenger cabin -- a cup of bad coffee.
Oh, they wouldn't be able to stand there stupidly and say "good day" to everyone as they leave. Too bad.
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#286588 - 12/09/2006 19:18
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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But then what would happen when the pilot, co-pilot, and navigator get sick because they all had the fish? How would Striker get to the cockpit to land the plane?
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Bitt Faulk
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#286589 - 12/09/2006 19:22
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Well, the entirely seperate bathroom for the cockpit would certainly take up some precious room, and on some longhaul flights there are two seperate flight crews who trade places halfway through, which would mean there would have to be a seperate seating area for the seccond crew. All of which would do no good against a bomb on board.
The truth is that after 9/11, no group of passengers is going to sit in their seats and wait to be flown into a building, they're going to resist. Before 9/11, it had always been safest to not fight back, but the rules have changed, and very few people will opt for certain death over possible death.
Matthew
Edited by matthew_k (12/09/2006 19:23)
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#286590 - 12/09/2006 21:23
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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If the pilots had a separate door (which has been suggested numerous times), they wouldn't be able to do a very vital part of their job... passenger safety. In the event of an... 'incident'... the crew's (including flightdeck crew's) first priority is to make sure all the passengers get off the plane. The group that shot those ideas down the quickest were the pilots themselves.
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#286592 - 13/09/2006 04:55
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Must be a bugger keeping your foot on the accelerator.... 
Nah. It's dual-control. As long as they don't swap both pilots at the same time, one of them can keep his foot on the gas...
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-- roger
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#286594 - 13/09/2006 14:02
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
The truth is that after 9/11, no group of passengers is going to sit in their seats and wait to be flown into a building, they're going to resist.
Heck, that was true even for the fourth plane on the very day of 9/11. As soon as people onboard that flight got wind of what happened with the other three flights, there was no way they were going to let it happen. So, um, yeah, I don't think that the 9/11 scenario is ever going to happen again. It's one of those tricks that works only once.
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#286595 - 13/09/2006 14:20
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Not to mention that it put a crimp in the plans of anyone who wanted to hijack a plane to fly it to Cuba.
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Bitt Faulk
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#286596 - 13/09/2006 14:46
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I know that running joke (heck, even the Pythons made fun of it back in the day), but I'm curious if any hijacker has ever DONE anything like that: Hijacking a plane just so they could fly to a specific destination (Cuba or otherwise)? The only pre-9/11 hijackings I can think of during my lifetime were all hostage situations where the hijackers were demanding something such as the release of political prisoners.
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#286597 - 13/09/2006 14:57
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
The only pre-9/11 hijackings I can think of during my lifetime were all hostage situations where the hijackers were demanding something such as the release of political prisoners.
If I remember rightly a bunch of Afghans hijacked a plane to fly to the UK. They claimed political asylum and are still here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/636375.stm
And also, from one of the linked articles:
"Six members of a gang that forced a hijacked Sudanese jet to Britain in 1996 are still living in the UK on benefits while they await an adjudication on their claims, while a man involved in a 1982 Air Tanzania hijack was granted asylum here after serving two years of a three-year jail sentence."
Edited by andy (13/09/2006 14:59)
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#286598 - 13/09/2006 14:58
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Running joke? From Wikipedia's entry on aircraft hijacking: Quote:
Since 1947, 60% of hijackings have been refugee escapes.
and
Quote:
In 1968 there were 27 hijackings and attempted hijackings to Cuba.
That's in that one single year.
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Bitt Faulk
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#286599 - 13/09/2006 15:47
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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All righty, then. I suppose those just weren't as widely televised as the hostage-situation ones.
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#286600 - 13/09/2006 23:13
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I doubt they were commercial airliners, either. No need to risk security when you just need a small puddle jumper.
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#286602 - 19/09/2006 00:24
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
In 1968 there were 27 hijackings and attempted hijackings to Cuba.
Quote:
That's in that one single year.
It seems that Cubans are more interested in travel the other direction now.
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Glenn
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#286603 - 19/09/2006 06:44
Re: Privacy and Security on Flights
[Re: gbeer]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
In 1968 there were 27 hijackings and attempted hijackings to Cuba.
Quote:
That's in that one single year.
It seems that Cubans are more interested in travel the other direction now.
Very true. In 1998 alone, there were a staggering 863 reported hijackings of canoes, rafts, and other assorted buoyant objects en route to Miami, Florida.
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