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#268352 - 30/10/2005 01:50 Too rich...
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Personally, I think anybody with a stupid name like "Scooter" deserves to be indicted just on general principle.

And so the current administration isn't busy enough getting Marines killed and generally being inept? So they have to sue The Onion over the use of the prezidential seal? What a bunch of morons.

Sue The Onion? What were they thinking?

So there. You reap what you sow.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#268353 - 30/10/2005 02:17 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Note that no one has actually been indicted for the leaking itself. Only for obstruction of justice, perjury and the like.

Basically a lamb has been sacrificed. Not that Scotter is much of a lamb. Who knows maybe he did it and this is the deal that was worked out.
_________________________
Glenn

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#268354 - 30/10/2005 02:32 Re: Too rich... [Re: gbeer]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
Note that no one has actually been indicted for the leaking itself. Only for obstruction of justice, perjury and the like.

Yeah, that stuff...obstruction of justice...perjury...hardly matters does it??

Quote:
Basically a lamb has been sacrificed. Not that Scotter is much of a lamb. Who knows maybe he did it and this is the deal that was worked out.

If you think this "Scooter" was a lamb, I have to believe that you are maybe one of the people that keeps taking left turns in front of oncoming traffic. I have had a number of people do that lately in front of me. Some of them were busy talking on cell phones while they whipped their SUVs in front of me. I haven't been entirely sure what to make of them. For lack of a better term, I have decided to call them "optimists".
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#268355 - 30/10/2005 04:59 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
I said he wasn't much of a lamb, and compared to leaking the name of an active duty agent. Yes, "only" is fitting.

Edit: Lamb compared to the remaining suspects, that fits too.


Edited by gbeer (30/10/2005 05:01)
_________________________
Glenn

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#268356 - 30/10/2005 12:39 Re: Too rich... [Re: gbeer]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
I said he wasn't much of a lamb, and compared to leaking the name of an active duty agent. Yes, "only" is fitting.


Well, I'll confess I got mad when I read "Note that no one has actually been indicted for the leaking itself. Only for obstruction of justice, perjury and the like." on a couple of fronts.

1) "Note" - Like we didn't know??? Need to be reminded in case we didn't read all the way to the bottom of the page? Or did this opening just strike me like the right-wing blowback I expect I'd hear if I could tolerate tuning to 570 on the local AM dial.

2) "Only" - Perjuring oneself to try to sleaze out of charges of sexual impropriety, well that is pretty serious. Perjuring oneself when trying to cover up illegal political character assassination undertaken to advance an unjust war that has killed tens of thousands of people? Well, *dang*, that seems really bad.

So maybe this wasn't what you were trying to convey, but I am puzzled by what would motivate you to point out some facts of the situation in this way, and "only" gave me a sense of low standards.

Have no doubt, larger crimes were committed here for which we may never see indictments, be that Cheney/Rove/Bush revenge against Joe Wilson or the larger crime of lying to the world to go to war and the war itself. War criminals, them.

I am nonetheless gratified by these limited indictments. Indeed I take comfort from any embarassment this evil administration suffers -- Scooter, Harriet, whatever. Not that these are good things. Do I lie awake wishing for other people to suffer Katrinas and visits from military chaplains so that the evil ones can be embarassed? No. But to the extent that any indictments or self-created tribulations cause these evil ones to be less focused, less potent, then I can only be thankful for that.

This past week's indictments perhaps offer just a *glimmer* of hope that our political system isn't completely in the toilet. But I think the grand jury is still out on that and I am afraid they are likely to return a conviction.

Unable to sleep my extra hour of Standard Time this AM, I heard a report on BBC that gave a reasonably precise estimate of the numbers of Iraqis killed by *insurgents*. This is remarkable. We can arrive at an estimate of Iraqis killed by *other* people, but not of Iraqis killed by us.

But back to the main point, does The Onion ROCK, or what?
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#268357 - 30/10/2005 19:41 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Personally, I think anybody with a stupid name like "Scooter" deserves to be indicted just on general principle.

Went to a haloween party last night with friends. One of my friends dressed up in a suit and tie and carried around folders with big red "CONFIDENTIAL" letters written on the side. Kept gestuiring at me and telling people "He works for the CIA. Barbara Walters said so."

The majority of people got it. It was that kind of party.

(Off Topic: Best costume was an utterly letter-perfect King Of All Cosmos costume from Katamari Damacy. Including an MP3 player that played the game music out of those things on the sides of his head. Brilliant. Second best costume was the hostess, she was the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I was touched by her noodly appendage. Rapture. Like I said, it was that kind of party.)
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#268358 - 30/10/2005 21:42 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Who's Scooter?

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#268359 - 30/10/2005 21:56 Re: Too rich... [Re: blitz]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#268360 - 31/10/2005 00:24 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Personally, I think anybody with a stupid name like "Scooter" deserves to be indicted just on general principle.


My wife's friend's husband's name is Scooter. I'll tell him what you said... He'll get a laugh out of it. He's a nice guy and I certainly don't think he wants to be indicted just for his nick name. Don't take offense but the Onion link just seems gross. Maybe I'm too old to appreciate it. More likely just the way I was raised.

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#268361 - 31/10/2005 01:19 Re: Too rich... [Re: blitz]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
Quote:
Personally, I think anybody with a stupid name like "Scooter" deserves to be indicted just on general principle.

My wife's friend's husband's name is Scooter. I'll tell him what you said... He'll get a laugh out of it. He's a nice guy and I certainly don't think he wants to be indicted just for his nick name.

I'm glad to hear that some folks names Scooter are well-known in Texas. Truth be told, I don't think everbody named Scooter should be indicted. I just get appalled that somebody should drag their friendly, adolescent moniker through Andover and Yale and still keep it around when they become a noxious, evil, never-served-but-willing-to-send-them Vulcan. Think Biff Pinochet and Buffy Marcos.

Quote:
Don't take offense but the Onion link just seems gross. Maybe I'm too old to appreciate it. More likely just the way I was raised.

No way would I take offense. I think the Onion's Parade parody *is* gross. Juvenile humor. In the context of the Executive branch's stoooopid, bumbling, tight-ass legal action over the presidential seal, though, I think that it is just awesome. Perfect. "Don't Tread on Me!"

Joe Wilson on one of the TV news shows right now. And on CNN tomorrow eve. I heard him speak a few months ago in Seattle. I'd say he is enjoying his celebrity a bit, that he is fundamentally a straight, good, guy. Reading his book, which I did, I found the story of a regular guy who wandered a bit but who found a good career direction for himself. A friend of mine tried to see him last week here in Seattle, but it was sold out. There were a lot of people outside without tickets. My friend said that Wilson pulled up in a car/cab, got out and spent some time chatting and shaking hands with all the folks that couldn't get in. No handlers.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#268362 - 31/10/2005 02:28 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Who's Scooter?


Quote:
I'm glad to hear that some folks names Scooter are well-known in Texas.


Perhaps my attempt at humor was too subtle. Perhaps a football analogy will help... "Wide right"!

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#268363 - 31/10/2005 09:55 Re: Too rich... [Re: blitz]
petteri
addict

Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:

Perhaps my attempt at humor was too subtle. Perhaps a football analogy will help... "Wide right"!


Hey, lifelong Bills fans here! That hurts!

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#268364 - 31/10/2005 11:28 Re: Too rich... [Re: petteri]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Quote:
lifelong Bills fans here


I feel for you. I'm an anti-Dallas fan. I was miserable for an entire decade.

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#268365 - 31/10/2005 12:54 Re: Too rich... [Re: blitz]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
Perhaps my attempt at humor was too subtle.

It is true. You got me. That is the kind of thing I'd do.

Quote:
Perhaps a football analogy will help... "Wide right"!

I think we'll need to negotiate some other kind of analogy for this to work. I've heard we have a football team here in Seattle -- the Mariners or something. All is know is that traffic gets pretty f'ed up un Sundays. Makes it hard to get to church.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#268366 - 31/10/2005 13:32 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
"ScAlito"

"The nomination of Judge Alito requires an especially long, hard look by the Senate because of what happened last week to Harriet Miers. Conservative activists forced Miers to withdraw from consideration for this same Supreme Court seat because she was not radical enough for them. Now the Senate needs to find out if the man replacing Miers is too radical for the American people." _ Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.

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#268367 - 31/10/2005 19:28 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
There's one thing about this that really gnaws at me, and that I haven't really read much about in the mainstream media or blogs.

Kay Bailey Hutchison, Alexander Haig, and a slew of other right-wing wackjobs have all thrown out varied wordings of the idea that, somehow, because Fitzgerald couldn't bring an indictment for the actual revelation of Valerie Wilson's identity, that the perjury/false statements/obstruction of justice indictments are somehow irrelevant, frivolous, etc. They characterize these indictments as the desperate act of a politically motivated prosecutor who "couldn't get the original indictments to stick" with respect to the leak. The "witch hunt" rubric has been used on more than one occasion.

Now, the hypocrisy of this rationalization when compared with the Clinton impeachment proceedings has been well covered. Nobody's come to expect consistency from these mindless idealogues, so it's not shocking that they're condemning the exact same behavior they supported when Ken Starr was going after Clinton (investigating a crime, and, when the original crime can't be proven, indict on perjury and obstruction.) It's also not shocking that they'd consider lying about receiving fellatio and lying about giving your intern a cushy job at Revlon to be worse than lying about a potential conspiracy to go after an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq by revealing his wife's identity.

The hypocrisy is underscored and boldfaced, however, when you consider that the perjury that Libby is accused of is VERY much germane to the original charges being investigated, whereas Clinton's alleged perjury and obstruction of justice were the result of about six hard left turns from the Whitewater scandal being originally investigated. Clinton absolutely lied about his sexual affairs, and very likely lied and obstructed justice with regards to other tributaries of the investigation, but even the overzealous Starr couldn't build a case that there was any lying about Whitewater. Libby's alleged perjury, on the other hand, was a key barrier to Fitzgerald being able to get to the bottom of the leak investigation. Clinton was lying about his relationship with Monica so he could keep his dirty little secrets about his sex life; Libby was lying about where he discovered Plame's identity so he could throw off the investigation of the leak itself, and possibly to shield even higher level administration figures from blame in the matter.

So, even if Dubya's water carriers were to admit an equivalence between what Starr did and what Fitzgerald is now doing. they'd be full of shit, because Starr went way further to find the perjury/obstruction charges than Fitzgerald did. And Fitzgerald did it at less than 1% of the cost of the Starr investigation, something fiscal conservatives should rejoice about.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#268368 - 01/11/2005 13:03 Re: Too rich... [Re: tonyc]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Just curious... have you ever given a depostion as a fact witness?

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#268369 - 01/11/2005 14:00 Re: Too rich... [Re: blitz]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
No...
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#268370 - 01/11/2005 14:05 Re: Too rich... [Re: tonyc]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
OK.

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#268371 - 01/11/2005 14:13 Re: Too rich... [Re: blitz]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#268372 - 01/11/2005 14:36 Re: Too rich... [Re: jimhogan]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
What I don't understand is how leaking classified information is not a crime, or at least necessitates the loss of security clearance. I can understand how the actions may have not have met the standard of "knowingly revealing the identity of an undercover CIA officer", but how about plain "revealing classified information"? Her identity was floating around air force one on a memo marked "classified" after all. Ah well. I didn't think I had any respect for the president, but I have even less now that Karl Rove still reports for work every morning.

And on a lighter note, I think Eddie Izzard said something relevant:
Quote:
So, per – you know, perjury, umm, you know. If you commit perjury, I – I don’t care. Don’t give a shit. I don’t think you should because you grade murder. You have murder one, murder two. You realize that there can be a difference in the level of murder. So there must be a difference in the level of perjury. Perjury one is when you’re saying when you’re there’s no Holocaust when, you know 10 million people have died in it, and perjury…nine, is when you said you shagged someone when you didn’t.


Matthew

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