http://www.linux.com/hardware/newsitem.phtml?sid=1&aid=11465

I'll say no more.

Nick.



--
18Gb blue - s/n 080000299 (original queue position 8724)

Another yahoo who just "doesn't get it".

Do people who do half-arsed reviews like this get paid? If they do, I think I am in the wrong field of work, anyone can review a product and write a dim-witted review, AND gets paid for it, well, that just seems like a pipe dream to me.

My thoughts, not yours

Smoker_Man
#080000449 MkII - 36Gb Blue

The guy doesn't know the Empeg too well does he. He completely glossed over the USB connection and unless your a complete jerk I don't see why he had such a hard time with support at all. I never had a problem with them at all. My diode plug is on it's way after one email. He never mentions loading YOUR OWN CD's into the Empeg I guess he figures on everybody D/L MP3's of which is no way near as hard as he makes it seem. I think if I read that piece not owning one I'd think he was nuts right there and I use a regular 56k modem.
This guy acts as a regular Internet user but lacks the intellectual ability, they have, to use anything more complex than a VCR. I imagine Empeg is out of league or target audience anyway.

#695 Mk2 BLUE 12Gig

Ask and I may tell you

hmmm... I just dont remember ripping apart my car like in installation photos.

Exactly the same thoughts. I've never seen such a mess caused by just installing a head unit and some amp.
This guy is clueless about the software, too. But that's in part Empeg's fault, you know, because of claiming so much about the empeg being linux-driven that some linux guys may think even sync software is written for Linux. And you are right about the "downloading" issue: practically none of the regular posters here trust in downloaded mp3, just on the ones ripped by themselves, normally at high bitrates and vbr and stuff like that. So the T1 claim is nonsense, too.

Here's an email I sent him on 5-Nov-2000. I see no problem with posting it - it's MY words, I haven't quoted anything he wrote.

Trae,

Taking your points in turn:

Your player absolutely should not have shipped in anything other than perfect condition. The players are assembled by an ISO9001 compliant company who most definitely will not have attempted a bodge repair - especially on a plastic panel of which we have hundreds of spares. Please go ahead and send that photo, and we'll send out a replacement fascia if that's what you need.

I'm not sure what problems you see with the Linux software - it's kept up to date and we get good feedback about it. A command line driven utility is what has been demanded of us, so people can interface it into their Perl scripts, automate uploads and that kind of thing. The utility is supplied as an x86 binary as well as source.

If you want a GUI front end then the best bet is currently Jempeg - a Java implementation of emplode which runs on just about every platform going. It is currently in Beta release, but when it makes Gold we will include it on the CD and link from our web site. (right now you can find the project at http://sourceforge.net/projects/jempeg/). There are other Linux GUI downloader projects in progress as well, but I don't believe they're as far advanced as the Java version. Our geek site (http://geek.empeg.com) will track the progress of these projects (admittedly it's overdue an update right now).

Earlier in the year we took the step of releasing the download source under GPL, recognising that we don't have the resources to develop downloaders for a wide variety of platforms. The commercial reality for us is that 90%+ of our userbase demand Windows software, and this is where we must focus our attention (especially as we are now owned by S3 / SONICblue). Nonetheless I feel that we have given a huge amount of work to the Linux community - including much effort fixing up the StrongARM/Cirrus kernels for small footprint embedded applications, providing a general purpose in-dash Linux platform, and providing GPL code for accessing the music database. In addition our developers spend a great deal of time discussing technical issues at the empeg BBS (http://empeg.comms.net) which includes many Linux related topics.

Regards

Rob
--
Rob Voisey, empeg Operations Manager
e: rob@empeg.com t: +44 1223 576123 f: +44 1223 576124

I was sorry to read your comments on Linux.com relating to the car player. I thought we were responsive throughout the process, despite the transfer of responsibilities that were taking place within the company at the time.

The car player is of completely standard dimensions - in fact it is the only fully DIN and ISO compliant in-dash hard disk player that I know of. I've heard of some vehicle models - mostly US Toyota vehicles - which have a closed down head apperture for security reasons. Of course these are not compatible with any DIN pull-out stereos whatsoever, and there's nothing we can do about that. The player fits into the vast majority of cars with no dash rework at all.

I'm not sure how you were "suckered" into purchasing a 36Gb model, but if any empeg representative has misled you or utilised inappropriate sales techniques please send me the details - we have no room for such people within empeg or SONICblue.

We sell a model that large (in fact it is now 40Gb - with 60Gb expected soon) because we sell a LOT of them, around 20% of our total sales I believe. Many of our clients have huge music collections - you have to be serious about music to consider investing so much in your car hifi system! I'm not sure what to make of your T1 comment.. is all of your music pirated? The idea is to encode your own music collection, but if you prefer to download from Napster then I would certainly guess that a broadband net connection would be useful. Of course the quality of encoding that you'll get will be highly variable, not to mention the moral and legal implications. Maybe you download free music from MP3.com, and again, broadband would be useful. I'm not sure how any of this is our problem though - it's like complaining to Sony because you can't fill your 200 CD jukebox!

With regard to the Linux software, as I explained previously we wrote a command line utility because thats what we - as Linux enthusiasts - decided would be most useful. Others have written GUI front ends, and even a completely new Java GUI sync tool (check out geek.empeg.com); we thought we were doing a pretty good thing opening up the protocols and source for emptool. I told you about the graphical Java tool back in November, did you not get good results from it?

I would also point out that we have implemented hundreds of features over the last two years as a result of customer suggestions. You have stated that you hate the available software, but I've searched our mail archives and I can't find any detailed reasons or suggestions for improvement.

I'm sorry you had problems setting up DHCP - maybe you would have found it easier to use a fixed IP or USB, which has been supported in the Linux downloader for as long as Linux has had USB drivers.

Regards

Rob
--
Rob Voisey, SONICblue, Inc
e: rvoisey@sonicblue.com t: +44 1223 576 123 f: +44 1223 576 124

For data protection reasons I can't mention the company that paid for the player, and to which it was shipped. Sufficed to say - he SHOULD get it!

Rob

I know trae, visited him at last LWCE.. havn't talked to him in a while.. i'll have one of my friends at VA smack him down a bit.. well.. one of them.. there arn't that many people who can smack Trae down.. he's a big guy :)

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

SuperQ, hmm you should say big and STUPID

STUPID, yeah you've got that right. This guy just hasn't got a clue has he. Just about every negative point he makes about the Empeg is unfounded and basically er.. wrong! People like this make me soooo maaaad!!
I haven't posted here before, but I have been keeping up to date with the bbs since I first found out about the Empeg car player (1 Aug 2000). I immediately placed my order for a 12 gig blue and haven't regretted it for one moment since (except I wish I'd got a bigger one :-().

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those at Empeg for bringing such a excellent product to market. Cheers guys!!

beaker
12 gig blue

Me neither...

TommyE

This review definitly proves our community here won't be spoiled by new people who enjoy flame wars and such, so there is one benefit from this.

So far, the response section has gotten a few replies about either the CD MP3 players, or the new do it yourself one in Maximum Linux (/me runs off to a friends cube to grab the issue). I have to say it's one of the nicer setups for do it yourself ones, but they definitly have an MP3 in the car additude instead of high quality music and lots of it. They recommend any cheap sound card, and don't completly advise against an AC-DC power converter. They really didn't help too much on the in-dash control side, and they still don't beat the ease of use/upgradibility/varity of uses the empeg has. I still can't seen hauling a PC in and out of the house to have to deal with several cable connections frequently. A laptop may be a better step to get music onto it, but is still a pain. Also, they didn't look at future upgradibility, or hard drive protection either.

Here's what I posted to Trae in response to his reply to Marcus:

Linux Linux Linux! Why do some people hear that word and lose all mental faculties?

I've followed the empeg's history since it was Hugo's in-car project and a saleable product wasn't even a glint on the horizon. I've followed the entire history on the unofficial empeg BBS (http://empeg.comms.net), and my brother owns two empegs (a Mark I and a Mark II). So I do feel in a position to comment.

To me, it seems your review revolves around the fact that the car player runs Linux. One of your basic assumptions is that because the car player runs Linux, therefore only those people who run Linux will, or should, be able to use it. You apparently haven't given any consideration to the fact that the bulk of people who actually buy this product use Windows, and therefore would be able to use the perfectly acceptable Windows-based software.

And, indeed, if you had done any research whatsoever, you would have found that there is a Java front-end developed for the emptool program which runs on Linux, Mac OS, Windows, Sun and elsewhere. This piece of software has been developed by enthusiasts exactly to fill the need for a non-Windows product. It duplicates the Emplode program in pretty much all respects, and in some it works better! It's a Sourceforge project. What more could you want?

I also find your mention of the player's software version - 1.01 - highly amusing. Just in case anyone, including yourself, was confused about this, the Linux kernel running on the machine is 2.2 (I think - it may even be later than that). Anyone who has followed the beta process from Beta 7 would know that even version 1 had amazing functionality, worked almost flawlessly, and had a long and proud history behind it. Version 1.1 is going to blow your mind. Your frames of reference seem to be peculiarly absent.

And, on a final note, did you pay anything to get that front panel replaced? Was there any quibble from empeg about sending it back? I'll bet you the answer is no to both questions. Try finding another company who sell car stereos that could even begin to offer that kind of service. Once again you seem compelled to find reasons to condemn the empeg-car player, to the extent that you're blinded to conventional experience.

Read the BBS. You'll find that you are amongst the majority - an end-user who wanted great quality car audio and was prepared to pay what it was worth. You'll also find people willing to help you with any problem you have, from installation to software hacking. You'll find a whole bunch of people who only say great things about Linux products. Because the empeg-car player is a great use of Linux, and both of these deserve praise. Writing damning articles because of insufficient knowledge on your part hardly makes your position as a Linux advocate tenable.


I too wish that some Linux advocates wouldn't froth at the mouth every time it's mentioned. It is said that Neal Stephenson used the word "Finux" in his novel Cryptonomicon because he knew that if he'd called it Linux and got even one tiny detail out, the loony fringe of the Linux community would have been baying for his blood.

Sad. Don't these people know that getting a life is also an open-source project?



Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

Just to keep you guys up to date with the thread on Linux.com here's my reply to Trae's reply to my reply.
Does that make sense??
First of all I'd like to thank you for taking the time to read my comments on your review and for replying without it getting too heated!!
The reason for my "Another Planet" statement was in reply to a specific number of your comments relating to:

1. Needing a fast internet connection.

2. Assuming that it was the Empeg that was a non-standard size and not your vehicle's "DIN?" aperture.

3. Overall negative tone to the whole review.

OK I'll take these one at a time:

1. The idea behind the Empeg is that you encode your own MP3s from your own CD collection. Stating that you will need a fast internet connection infers that you will be downloading your MP3s from Napster or such like. Now that's OK if you already own the right to have a copy of the tune, either on CD or Vinyl etc. but you'd be much better off encoding your own as many of the MP3s available on the net are of inferior quality. So from your statement I concluded that you didn't realise that you could create MP3s yourself, or that you don't have any CDs of your own from which to create the MP3s.

2. The Empeg "sled" as it's called is of completely standard DIN size and no trimming of the vast majority of modern vehicles' apertures is necessary. As I stated in my initial reply, I had no problems at all fitting mine into the dash. It annoyed me that you hadn't checked whether it was the Empeg Car player or your vehicle which was at fault before submitting your review.

3. OK I know this one is a bit non-specific but if I didn't own an Empeg already and I read your review I may never have purchased one. I've had mine for about 10 weeks or so and I certainly wouldn't go back to a 10 stack CD changer again - no way!! No skipping or jumping or wearing your CDs out with those horrible load mechanisms. I would therefore have found the review totally misleading.

The vast majority of people who will be purchasing an Empeg Car player will at least have access to a Windows PC. Now I know it's the spawn of the Devil and all that but you can't get away from the fact that it is the dominant OS on the PC platform (until Linux takes over the world that is :-) ). It therefore makes sense for the Empeg team to channel their efforts into the platform which the majority of owners will be using to interface with their player. The player itself is very open and I know of at least one developer working on a Java GUI interface to the player for any OS that has a Java VM. There are other utilities also being developed by third parties and of course both the PC client and the internal software are being continually developed by the Empeg team themselves. These updates are available for download from the Empeg website. These updates are not just bug fix releases either but contain new features too. One of the extra features in the pipeline is voice recognition - a major feature nes pas? Oh, and of course they're all free. Other features I believe are either due for release or are being considered are:

1. Enhanced and greater number of visuals. Including an end user/developer plug-in type API.
2. Support for other encoding formats such as WMA & Ogg Vorbis.
3. Enhanced and additional searching facilities on the player itself.
4. Ability to work out which tracks you haven't heard for a while and give them preference when in shuffle mode.
5. Bookmarking of tracks.
6. General marking of tracks for whatever reason (perhaps a track has been badly encoded or needs a higher bitrate).

I'm sure there are many other features and enhancements being talked about within the walls of Empeg towers that we as end users don't know about.

I believe that many high-end head units have no amplification of their own and therefore rely on an external amplifier to drive the speakers. So the problem of finding space for your amp is not confined to those who choose to purchase an Empeg Car player but is a problem common to most if not all high-end in-car audio systems.

You mention in your reply to my comments that you enjoy your Empeg Car player every day. Why didn't you convey this in your review? Your comments about the Linux software being poor may be well founded but I would have thought as reviewer you might have taken the trouble to test the supplied Windows software ("Emplode") even if you don't like the platform, most of the target demographic will be using it. I believe that had you reviewed the player as an in-car audio player (which is how I interpreted the marketing) and compared it to competitive products (what competitive products? - there is no competition! - sorry I'm getting carried away again :-) ) rather than a piece of hardware which happens to run Linux then the review may have been more positive and I believe fairer in it's content.

I'm sure that other Empeg users will read this and be able to add some things that I have inevitably left out but I hope that I have gone some way to setting the record straight for those of us who are lucky enough to be part of the "Empeg family" and for those who have yet to own one of these excellent pieces of kit.

Thanks for "listening".


beaker
12 gig blue

As long as everybody else is posting their responses to Trae's review, I might as well put my response in here too...

"If Trae McCombs wanted a Linux computer, he should have bought a Linux computer.
The empeg is a MUSIC PLAYER that happens to run a Linux operating system. To
criticize it for not performing operations for which it was never intended seems a bit
short-sighted. And yes, you can buy an in-car CD/MP3 player for $300 that will store and
play all of 12 hours of music. There is at least one empeg currently running that can play
nearly 100 times that amount. Until you have had your entire music collection, hundreds of
hours of it, available at the press of a button without having to mess with swapping disks
and digging through piles of CDs, you will never fully appreciate the merits of the empeg.
If you want a Linux computer, shop elsewhere. If you want what is unquestionably the best
in-car music player available, then look no further. "

tanstaafl.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

hrm.. i think you guys are being a little harsh.. he's not that bad a guy.. and he's not stupid.. he's just very spoiled by $ and technology.. (look at the DVD player above the empeg)

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

This guy is yet ANOTHER case of a computer geek who, like most computer geeks, believe that just because they know computing hardware, that they automatically know about audio hardware. For other cases-in-point, read any recent review of computer speakers.

Its geeks like this (and some guys reading this) that are to blame for the industry being able to sell inferior speakers as "computer speakers" for far more than their worth for as long as they have. The same geeks who don't know why $250 USD for a set of Klipsch computer speakers is a STEAL.

You generally don't get many computer guys who have had nice cars growing up, and nice audio systems IN those cars. Now that they're finding their money-making niches in life, they're buying nice cars and making terrible assuptions about the hardware for THAT venue.

Its interesting that the reviewer bozo has an exception with installing an amp (like thats somehow specifically a problem with the empeg) -- well, Dear Bozo: anyone who can justify this expense is very likely to appreciate audio and thereby NOT just some geek or punk who expects to have great audio driven by his/her head unit.

And, finally, and completely unrelated to empeg, doesn't this trouble anyone:

> [the reviewer] started using Linux in September of
> 1996. He founded a site called Themes.org, and now
> works for VA Linux Systems as the site director of
> Linux.com

A guy who's only used LINUX for four years is the best they could do for the site director of linux.com?

Not to mention how l33t themes are.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
MK2 #141, green, 12GB

yes.. some people just don't apreciate the car audio industry, octobrX may not know car audio (he doesn't) and he may not be the best linux admin I know.. but he _is_ a good artist, and web designer. I've known him online for a while now, and his work with themes.org is nothing to sneeze at.

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125