#216821 - 22/05/2004 22:16
Draft possible next year?
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addict
Registered: 29/06/2002
Posts: 531
Loc: Triangle, VA
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A friend sent me this link and thought I would share it with you all. I my self hope these two bills dont get passed. This country is suppose to be about freedom and choice. From what I have gathered from it, you no longer have a choice and would have to serve. I think thats wrong. Read it and tell me what you think..
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg
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Modifying and Tweaking is a journey,
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#216822 - 23/05/2004 09:20
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: SonicSnoop]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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So we'll be seeing a lot of new "visitors" up in Canada I suppose... Just don't come to Ontario where our own premier (equiv of Governor) is just kicking in his strategy to bend over the entire populace and give us all the big "Who's Your Daddy?" (Any tips you'd care to give Ontario citizens on overthrowing their government will be appreciated)
Will those bills have a chance to be passed into law before the next presidential election? I'd assume they would all but guarantee that G.W. does not come back for another term. And I'd assume that any other hopeful would go a long way campaigning to scuttle those bills.
Bruno
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#216823 - 23/05/2004 10:14
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: SonicSnoop]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Well, as much as I hate to admit it, those bills are bullshit. I would love to see Bush and his cronies get hammered for this, but it is not them that pushed it. This is an attempted setup from the Democrats. Bills S 89 and HR 163 (which was submitted in January 2003, i.e. before the Iraq war begun) were sponsored almost entirely by Democrats. In the words of one of the sponsers Pete Stark:
"Yet, war is on the horizon. The President is intent on invading Iraq whatever the cost. [...] The only real question that remains is whether or not Americans are ready and willing to bear the cost? [...] Reinstituting the draft may seem unnecessary to some. But, it will ensure all Americans share in the cost and sacrifice of war. Without a universal draft, this burden weighs disproportionately on the shoulders of the poor the disadvantaged and minority populations."
I tried to find out what happened to these bills, but they both vanished into a committe early last year and have not been seen since according to the congressional website.
Of course, this does not change the fact that Bush and the Pentagon have indeed taken steps to get the draft machinery back in working order, such as filling all the positions on the draft board and sending more money their way. It also does not change the fact that the U.S. military is seriously understaffed compared for what it is being asked to do right now, and a draft is increasingly looking like a real possibility if Bush gets re-elected.
Alas, the dumb Democrats shot themselves in the foot by muddying the waters here, and too many people negate any credibility they have by tying these issues together. Nevertheless, I am glad I am above draft age.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#216824 - 23/05/2004 10:29
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: hybrid8]
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addict
Registered: 29/06/2002
Posts: 531
Loc: Triangle, VA
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From what that site says, people will not be able to run to canada cause of some agreement between the two countrys.
If the democrats started it, and republicans are supporting it, man I have no idea who to vote for now. I dont like either of them. Politics drive me crazy, too much crap.
_________________________
-D
Modifying and Tweaking is a journey,
not a destination................................
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MKIIa : 20gig - 040103260 - Blue - v3a8 + Mark Lord Special Edition Cherry Dock
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#216825 - 23/05/2004 11:34
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: SonicSnoop]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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I'm all for it.
That fact is that the armed forces are seriously overstretched at the moment. You may not like the 'lack of choice' but nor do the thousands of people who signed up for domestic duty in the National Guard and have consequently found themselves in Iraq, or the serving soldiers whose commision has expired but are being refused the right to come home. The draft would help to alleviate both these problems.
Another aspect to consider is that one in ten US citizens in Iraq is a private contractor. I have to wonder just how that helps middle-eastern opinions of the USA. Instead of seeing US forces help to rebuild and protect Iraq, it is too easy to see private corporations profiting from the war. Have you wondered why private contractors have become targets? Furthermore, the private armies pay $100k+ to their soldiers. Who do you think is picking up that tab? Ultimately it is the US taxpayer. I'd rather see 3 squaddies for that money.
Finally, it is about time that the politicians' decisions affected their lives. It's too easy to devalue the human cost of war.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
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#216826 - 23/05/2004 12:22
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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One proposal would raise draft age to something in the thirties. I'm 31 and would no longer be above whatever it was.
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#216827 - 23/05/2004 12:44
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: genixia]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> ...serving soldiers whose commision has expired but are being refused the right to come home
Well, I think a better solution is to bring ALL of them home, rather then send more people over there to be killed. I know what your point is, but I think playing political brinksmanship games like this just weakens the Democratic position.
> Finally, it is about time that the politicians' decisions affected their lives.
You are too much of an optimist. Even with a universal draft, do you think people like the Bush twins are really going to get caught in it? The powerful will still get out of it, just like Dumya's daddy got him out of it during the last draft.
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#216829 - 23/05/2004 16:26
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: ninti]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Well, I think a better solution is to bring ALL of them home, rather then send more people over there to be killed.
And you're calling _me_ the optimist?! We(*) have no exit strategy. Never did, apparantly. Now we are there we are stuck there until there is a viable Iraqi government.
Perhaps if the US eats enough humble pie at the international community restaurant then others may step in to help speed that process up. (As a side note, has anyone noticed the irony that after all the Administration's bitching about the UN and the corruption surrounding the Oil for Food programme, that one of the corrupt officials skimming the cash appears to have been a spy for the US, and now a member of the coalition-installed government?)
Even with a universal draft, do you think people like the Bush twins are really going to get caught in it?
Good question. Assuming an expanded age range, they've got another 12?,13? years to dodge. Daddy can only be Pres' for another 4 years.
The reality is that they would probably end up doing civilian service instead, as would be a choice for anyone.
* I should remind everyone that I am a Brit.
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#216830 - 23/05/2004 18:11
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: genixia]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> We(*) have no exit strategy. Never did, apparantly. Now we are there we are stuck there until there is a viable Iraqi government.
Well, I used to agree with you. Now I think we should just leave. Proclaim the goverment is working fine and just walk right on out. Right now. In the end it will amount to the same thing anyway. It doesn't matter what we do the country is going to go into flames as soon as we leave, why prolong it any more? We won't of course, not with Bush and not with Kerry either, but in hindsight that will have been the best choice.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#216831 - 23/05/2004 20:09
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: genixia]
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enthusiast
Registered: 26/12/2001
Posts: 386
Loc: Miami, FL - Sioux Falls, SD
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I'm all for it.
Go sign up for the services then. See how you like it.. let alone having to go without a choice. And about those who signed up for domestic duty.. they knew when they signed up that there was a chance they could possibly be sent out in the case of a war.
-Greg
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#216832 - 24/05/2004 02:24
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: ninti]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 13/04/2001
Posts: 1742
Loc: The land of the pale blue peop...
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just put saddam back he was nuts but he kept the place running
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#216833 - 24/05/2004 08:49
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: mandiola]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Go sign up for the services then. See how you like it.. let alone having to go without a choice.
It appears that you've completely missed the nuances of my arguments. I wouldn't like it. Nor would many people. That's the point. When the entire voting public is suddenly at risk of being sent to war or of having their loved ones sent to war you will see a less cavalier attitude to war coming from the smirking CIC, or a less smirking CIC to begin with.
And about those who signed up for domestic duty.. they knew when they signed up that there was a chance they could possibly be sent out in the case of a war.
Oh, I have no problem with the Reserves being sent. Firstly they are a federal branch, and secondly their whole raison d'etre is to be called up in times of need.
The National Guard however, are under State control, or so I thought. Are they not, in fact, some of those 'well organisied militia' (s) that the Constitutions touts? I don't think that they were ever intended to be posted abroad to fight wars, and that some big federal vacuum has sucked them in inappropriately.
If you're going to talk about choice then consider this. Where will all the people who are willing to serve their country, albeit with some conditions and limitations, choose to sign up? Those single parents, those with ailing parents, or those with other commitments at home that would prevent full service.
I don't think that they will anymore. POTUS and his administration have polarised the issue too much, "You're either with us or against us" in action. They've made it painstakingly clear that there is no room for such people in any branch of the armed services.
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#216834 - 24/05/2004 09:26
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: ninti]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Now I think we should just leave.
Ok. The Kurds would be pushed back north by the shiites and sunnis, until eventually hitting the Turkish border, whereupon the Turks, realising that they are the only NATO country with an immediate military interest in the area decide to annex Kurdistan. Bye-bye Kurds.
Next, the radical Shiites invite in some of their cleric buddies from Iran and get the Shia majority stirred up. Bye-bye Sunnis.
Unless, of course, the Sunnis invite in their buddies from Syria...Oh My God - it's going to be a Bloodbath.
Yeah, so what the USA _really_ needs to help patch up it's foreign relations is for civil war to prevail. The only credible justification left for the coaltion to be there to begin with is that they are preventing Saddam from carrying out further atrocities.
No one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war, but estimates range from 500,000 to 1 million dead, 1-2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 prisoners. There were approximately 2.5 million refugees, and whole cities were destroyed. The financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion.
Source
Those numbers would pale into insignificance. An oilfield with a power vacuum would result in a catastrophe.
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#216835 - 24/05/2004 11:12
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The National Guard can be called to federal service to be stationed domestically (or is that homelandedly?) or overseas. However, the valid reasons are (10 USC §12406): - the United States, or any of the Territories, Commonwealths, or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;
- there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or
- the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States
None of those currently seem to apply, do they?
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Bitt Faulk
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#216836 - 24/05/2004 11:18
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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... playing political brinksmanship games like this just weakens the Democratic position. Can we all now admit that both major U.S. political parties are morally identical and move on?
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-- DLF
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#216837 - 24/05/2004 11:52
Re: Draft possible next year?
[Re: DLF]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Can we all now admit that both major U.S. political parties are morally identical and move on?
Naw, I am not ready to concede that yet, despite the fact that both are indeed morally bankrupt. But playing political games by introducing dumb bills is a long way from invading a foreign nation on false pretenses, tearing up our own constitution and the Geneva convention, and cynically using the deaths of nearly 3000 Americans to manipulate the American people into going along with their pre-established neocon agenda. Almost all politicians are immoral, but Bush and his regime are apparently striving for just plain evil.
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