»news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2687311

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man Who Killed Armed Intruder Jailed Eight Years

By Will Batchelor, PA News
Tue 23 Mar 2004

A man who stabbed to death an armed intruder at his home was jailed for eight years today.

Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

Mr Swindells, of Salford, was later found collapsed in an alley and died in hospital.

Lindsay, of Walkden, was found guilty of manslaughter following a three-week trial at Manchester Crown Court.

He was sentenced to eight years' imprisonment.

After the case, Detective Chief Inspector Sam Haworth said: "Four men, including the victim, had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindells' death.

"I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances."

Three other men were charged with robbery and firearms offences in connection with the incident, which took place in February last year.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have a lot of posters here from England. I was wondering if any of you had more information.

-Biscuits

I'd like to know how many years the robbers got for armed robbery. Hope it's more than eight.

If this had happened in the Southern United States, the other three burglars would have been charged with murder. The homeowner would have been congratulated by the cops.

-Biscuits

And that's the way it should be everywhere. It's a clear-cut case of self defence. If there was no immediate danger, or if he had chsed the burgler and killed the guy in the alley, I can see a case. But if the struggle happened in the house, while this person was trying to defend himself and his family then there shouldn't even be a charge brought against him. Should never have made it to a trial.

I hope there's an appeal process and that it turns this charge around.

Note to self... Need a new baseball bat for the bedroom and one for the closet by the front door.

Bruno

What a travesty,How can somthing like this happen.I think the prosecruiters and judges there should get a jail sentence for even trying this case.

.I think the prosecruiters and judges there should get a jail sentence for even trying this case.

The most elaborate coverage of this story that i can find (from the BBC) extends to all of 239 words. While I am not instinctively inclined to trust the sometimes unpredictable, irrational courts (I mean, look at who's in the White House!) I am likewise reserved in my judgement of the products of the oft-oversimplifying media.

Until I see at least 500 words, I am keeping my outrage dry!

I'd like to know how many years the robbers got for armed robbery. Hope it's more than eight.

Knowing our justice system, they probably got a caution and were sent on their way.

Reading the BBC version has made me realise this happened about 10 mins drive from my house! You're right though, this is a joke, unless there's something we're not being told. I've read about situations like this before and they've never been this harsh. I think there's something else, maybe the fact he had a sword at home.

The area this happened in is nasty, the buses don't run after 7PM for fear being shot at or having their windows put through. The robbers are also from similarly nasty areas of Salford that I used to have to walk through when I was a student. We used to keep a baseball bat by the door when I lived there.

they probably got a caution and were sent on their way

More likely, you and I and the rest of the nation are paying them social security, or compensation - PC goes crazy sometimes on these islands!

Another sad case of where the victim actually has less rights than the agressors. Nice message to send into the world : "rob away guys! And if you get resistance from your victim, HE'LL end up being the bad guy!"

If you ask me, that burgular just ran into an occupational hazard.

....and then there's the one about the leading neuro-surgeon who has been suspended from his duties for, allegedly, helping himself to extra croutons for his soup, in the staff canteen - another story of infinite political correctness!

I've not even seen this mentioned anywhere. You'd think if it was as open and shut as this, they'd be outrage everywhere. Hmmm...

This article shows a slightly saner view of what *should* happen. The case was a blind man who stabbed a drunken man to death who had entered his house after kicking the front door of it's hinges.

Gareth

Had it been simple self defense the charge would have been manslaughter or even a lesser charge. It seems very likely that a murder charge upheld by a jury has more behind it than has been reported.

Rob

So, are we to interpret, there's no point looking for sympathy from the court in guarding your own property, unless you can also prove that, concomitantly, you have a disability?

It seems very likely that a murder charge upheld by a jury has more behind it than has been reported

Good point, let's see if more comes out over the next few days, I've asked the editor of my well known local rag to see if they have anything that illuminates.

Its ok, you can rest easy now, Boxer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/3565363.stm

Soup row surgeon ...

I don't know why you'd care, but Americans almost never use the word "row" with that meaning. As such, at first I thought it was some surgeon who had become homeless and was waiting for food handouts.

lol it DOES sound better that way. I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out.

It seems very likely that a murder charge upheld by a jury has more behind it than has been reported.

A somewhat more detailed story:

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/archive/2004/03/10/NEWS6ZM.html

No Justice

By Charles Murray
Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2004

ARTICLES
The Times (London)
Publication Date: January 18, 2004

The story was told by an American student named Valerie Ruppel who had returned from a term's study in London. Two days after her group reached Britain, a policewoman came to South Kensington to brief them on how to keep themselves safe.

I pick up Valerie's account in her own words: "Her first question was to the women, 'How many of you brought Mace?' Three girls raised their hands. She told us we couldn't use it, shouldn't even carry it, it was illegal.

"Had any of us brought any other type of weapon, such as a knife? Several of the men in our group indicated that they carried pocket knives. She told us to leave them at home too."

"Then she instructed us on how to properly be a victim. If we were attacked, we were to assume a defensive posture, such as raising our hands to block an attack."

"The reason (and she spelt it out in no uncertain terms) was that if a witness saw the incident and we were to attempt to defend ourselves by fighting back, the witness would be unable to tell who the aggressor was. However, if we rolled up in a ball it would be quite clear who the victim was."

Cut
http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.19743/news_detail.asp



"We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall roll up in a ball on the beaches, we shall roll up in a ball on the landing grounds, we shall roll up in a ball in the fields and in the streets, we shall roll up in a ball in the hills; we shall never(?) surrender" Winston Churchill

-Biscuits

So he was a drug dealer robbed during a drug deal. Yeah, that does change things a bit doesn't it. Your instinct was correct Jim...it is curious the first article left out all those little salient facts.

I think Lindsay should be given a pass on the murder charges, so long as all the blows were struck before the robbers left his residence.

However, I think he should be executed for dealing drugs.

-Biscuits

Yes that does change things abit.I guess he got what he deseved.

As I said earlier, there was something missing from the original article. Oh well, two less knob heads to worry about.

In the UK to claim something as self defense you have to use reasonable force, stabbing somebody 4 times with a samurai sword could hardly be considered reasonable force.

"I've been lucky with magistrates"
He's not kidding!

In the UK to claim something as self defense you have to use reasonable force

Damn, there goes my defence if I met a car thief.

Yep, Its just not considered self defence when the other guy is running away, which is always the presumption when the wounds are inflicted from behind.