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#210075 - 22/03/2004 16:42 Counting cards?
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
Anyone ever learned to count cards in Blackjack (successfully?)? I've always been interested in the possibilities of it, but all the info that exists on the internet is either 1) crazy people (the same "geniuses" who float around investment forums), or 2) casinos (you can imagine this isn't probably the most trustworthy source). I'm curious what books and methods people recommend and if the pursuit is even worth attempting? The concept certainly seems fascinating ...

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#210076 - 22/03/2004 16:45 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/vegas.html

An important point in the article:
In Las Vegas, the casino has the right to bar anyone it wants. (Atlantic City has more "civilized" rules: The casinos can't bar card counters, however they can annoy and harass them with constant shuffles, dealer changes, and other countermeasures.)
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Bitt Faulk

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#210077 - 22/03/2004 16:49 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
g_attrill
old hand

Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
Much easier to use your mobile phone to scan the roulette wheel.

Gareth

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#210078 - 22/03/2004 16:52 Re: Counting cards? [Re: wfaulk]
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
Yeah -- I've read that article (and the full book as well) ... Clearly the intent is to not get caught if you were to use this technique At the moment, it's more a curiosity than a "I'm going to go make a billion dollars" ... I've just always wondered if it /actually/ works -- from someone who has used it his/herself vs from a book that is possibly completely a lie (albeit a great story regardless).

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#210079 - 22/03/2004 17:02 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
I've just always wondered if it /actually/ works

If you mean counting cards then yes, it is a statistical certainty that you will come out ahead. It moves the odds from a couple of percent in favour of the house (in the case of perfect basic strategy play) to a couple of percent in your favour. That is, assuming you can find a table that deals deep enough, which isn't likely to happen on the strip.

It's not easy to count and avoid detection though. I'm strictly a basic strategy player, which I guess means I'm a mug!

Rob

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#210080 - 22/03/2004 17:10 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
Not wishing to hijack the thread or anything, but wouldn't it be cool to have an empeg holdem tournament some time! Perhaps at Amersfoort this year, if there are enough players..

Rob

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#210081 - 22/03/2004 17:40 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31601
Loc: Seattle, WA
My favorite reference on the subject of blackjack odds is Mike Shackleford at http://www.wizardofodds.com/ . He talks about card counting a bit. I trust what Mike Shackleford has to say on the subject, so definitely read him.

My feelings on card counting are:

- It doesn't make a huge difference in your return. Only fractions of a percentage.
- It is only really useful for single deck play, which is becoming more and more rare.
- In the casinos I frequent, the only remaining single deck games are the new "blackjack pays 6 to 5" games, which is a new rule that tips the odds farther into the casino's favor, counteracting the advantage that card counters have.
- The good card counting systems require too much concentration and take the fun out of the game.

With that said, I frequently play single deck 6-to-5 games and I do sort of keep eye on the basic ratio of tens, just as a way of getting a feel for when to bet higher.

More details:

I learned what's called the "unbalanced tens count". This is not a particularly powerful counting system, and it's not hugely accurate, but it is easy to learn and does not require much concentration, so it doesn't detract from the fun of the game. It works like this...

A deck that is rich in tens and face cards (face cards have a value=10) is beneficial to the players, a deck that is poor in tens and face cards is beneficial to the dealer. So. If the dealer is getting ready to deal, and the deck is rich in tens, then you can bet higher on that hand.

The reason: A dealer must hit on a stiff hand, whereas you don't necessarily have to. The idea is, you want to get into situations where the dealer's cards are a ten and a small card like 2 through 6. Then, because the deck is rich in tens, the dealers next hit is more likely to be a ten and therefore bust the dealer. You, on the other hand, can stand on your lower hand and let the dealer bust. So you win without having to take a chance and hit a stiff hand.

(But since all you're doing is keeping track of the ratio of tens, this is an iffy proposition. Even with a deck that is rich in tens, the dealer can still show a 16 and draw a five. It's just a tad less likely. So you will win and lose with counting, just like you win and lose without it. The ratio of wins and losses will be the same, but since you're betting higher on the times when the dealer is a tad more likely to bust, your overall win amounts will just be a slight fraction higher if you're counting.)

What makes the simple "unbalanced tens count" useful in single-deck play is: At a crowded casino, with all of the seats at a single deck table filled up, you usually get only two hands after a shuffle before another shuffle is needed. So you really don't even need to keep a running count in your head, you merely need to know what the 10s ratio was on the last hand, the one right after the shuffle. So it's really easy to do. The pattern goes like this:

The dealer shuffles.
You bet low.
Watch the cards in that hand.
Did a disproportionate number of little cards come out on that hand?
If so, bet high on the next hand. If not, bet low.
The next hand is dealt, it plays out, etc., hopefully you won it if you had bet high.
Now it's time for another shuffle.
Repeat.

Okay, so that's the basic pattern. The actual unbalanced tens count works like this.

- Every tens-value card (10 J Q K) offsets two little cards (A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)

- Each tens-value card that gets dealt is bad, and is worth negative two. Each little card that gets dealt is good, and is worth positive one.

- So for every ten that is dealt, if there are two corresponding little cards being dealt also, then those are a "wash" and the count doesn't change. For example, if there are eight little cards on the table, and four tens on the table, the ratio of tens to littles hasn't changed. But if there are eleven littles and four tens on the table, then the ratio has changed, in your favor (positive), by three.

- Now, notice in each suit there are four tens (10 J Q K) and nine littles (A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9). Nine divided by four is not two, there's a remainder of one. So technically, each ten does not really exactly offset two littles. That's where the "unbalanced" part of the "unbalanced tens count" comes in. When you start a fresh shuffle, the count is actually unfavorable by one card per suit, or four cards in the total deck. So on a fresh shuffle, your count starts off at negative 4. Only when the count ratio has changed, in your favor, by more than four, can you start to think about betting high on the next hand.

- And actually, you only want to start betting really high if the ratio is particularly favorable. Like, +4, +8, or more.

- For instance, if you just saw a hand that was almost all little cards and only a couple of tens. Let's say the dealer just shuffled, and you just watched the other five players at the table just hit hit hit hit like crazy because they kept getting twos and threes and such, and the dealer hardly dealt any tens to any of them. Before the dealer sweeps up all the cards off the table, you can see what's out there and get a basic idea of what the ratio was. You can go "wow, look at all those little cards" and then put some extra chips in your betting circle.

Thats' really all that counting is, for me. Not a detailed science, just a basic feel for how much more likely the dealer will be to bust on the next hand.

Anyone else want to share their counting systems?

(One...)
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Tony Fabris

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#210082 - 22/03/2004 18:03 Re: Counting cards? [Re: tfabris]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
C'mon, Tony. Use the last one to respond to Erlend in your congratulations thread!
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#210083 - 22/03/2004 19:28 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I've been using the Knock-Out Blackjack for the past year and a half.At first it was working out well. Lately, I've really been getting my face kicked in (down a couple grand from the last 3-4 times out). I don't know if it's the system sucks or I am just playing too aggressive (last bet I made was $100 "money plays" on a $5 table and lost). I think I am going to agree with Rob V. Using basic strategy never seemed to let me down. I would win some and lose some every now and then. Now, it's just brutal when I lose and so-so when I win. I will look over Tony's method more, but I think basic strategy is your best bet unless you can remember every card that came out and are playing a 1-2 deck game.

Also, stay away from Spanish 21. It may look like BlackJack, but it aint.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#210084 - 22/03/2004 19:30 Re: Counting cards? [Re: rob]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
...empeg holdem tournament some time! Perhaps at Amersfoort this year, if there are enough players..
I'm in! Hopefully my dollars are worth something by then.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#210085 - 22/03/2004 19:52 Re: Counting cards? [Re: mschrag]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Anyone ever learned to count cards in Blackjack

I guess I'm the wrong person to ask. Gambling has never had any fascination for me.

The only time I ever gambled was at a bicycle shop owners convention in Las Vegas, where the hotel package included $800 in non-redeemable chips -- you had to gamble with them, couldn't cash them in -- but , you were allowed to keep any winnings.

So I went to the roulette table, put $400 on black, $400 on red at the same time, lost the black bet, won the red bet, cashed in my $800 winnings and went to bed.

tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#210086 - 22/03/2004 21:36 Re: Counting cards? [Re: tanstaafl.]
Glen_L
member

Registered: 24/02/2003
Posts: 111
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
So I went to the roulette table, put $400 on black, $400 on red at the same time, lost the black bet, won the red bet, cashed in my $800 winnings and went to bed.

I must be missing something here, how did you end up $800 ahead there? It seems to me you should have broke even...
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No longer a stranger, finally a full-fledged member! \:D

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#210087 - 22/03/2004 21:39 Re: Counting cards? [Re: Glen_L]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Lost the $400 on black, doubled the $400 on red. The house still comes out ahead (on average) because he could have gotten zero or double-zero, both green.
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Bitt Faulk

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#210088 - 22/03/2004 21:43 Re: Counting cards? [Re: wfaulk]
Glen_L
member

Registered: 24/02/2003
Posts: 111
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
Right, lost 400 on black and gained 400 on red so he should be even again rather than 800 ahead.
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No longer a stranger, finally a full-fledged member! \:D

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#210089 - 22/03/2004 21:46 Re: Counting cards? [Re: Glen_L]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Oh, assuming that "winnings" means what's above and beyond the initial $800. That would be the ... uhhh ... correct interpretation, but that's obviously not what was meant. (Sorry, Doug.) I guess the chips just had to flow through the casino's tables.
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Bitt Faulk

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#210090 - 22/03/2004 22:03 Re: Counting cards? [Re: wfaulk]
Glen_L
member

Registered: 24/02/2003
Posts: 111
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
Right, I took "winnings" to mean he won $800 since he said only winnings (not the $800 "freebie chips") could be cashed in and taken home.

It seems by betting on both red and black he negated any chance of coming out ahead--he could only break even (land on red or black) or lose (land on green). With the free chips it would have been better to pick one color or number for a shot at leaving with some money.
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No longer a stranger, finally a full-fledged member! \:D

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#210091 - 22/03/2004 22:15 Re: Counting cards? [Re: Glen_L]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I hate putting words in his mouth.

I think since he bet with the chips, he got to keep the $800. He just had to launder them through the casino. Even if they were marked chips, it wouldn't take long to lose them and gain new unmarked ones. It'd take at least one more spin, though.
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Bitt Faulk

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#210092 - 22/03/2004 22:19 Re: Counting cards? [Re: Glen_L]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
He walked in with $800 that wasn't his and walked out with $800 that was. What more do you want?
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#210093 - 22/03/2004 23:05 Re: Counting cards? [Re: wfaulk]
Glen_L
member

Registered: 24/02/2003
Posts: 111
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
I think I got it now, he was just basically changing non-refundable chips into refundable ones. For some reason I had it in my head that he had to win his own money by using the free chips, but obviously they couldn't keep track of that.

So, he took the smart bet after all. Sorry for the confusion on my part
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No longer a stranger, finally a full-fledged member! \:D

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#210094 - 22/03/2004 23:12 Re: Counting cards? [Re: tanstaafl.]
butter
enthusiast

Registered: 07/03/2002
Posts: 211
Loc: State side
[shakes his head in disbelief] damn, that's genius [/shakes his head in disbelief]
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Tobin
Mark IIa - 60gb - Smoke
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