#206864 - 27/02/2004 08:11
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Movie: Caiaphas and other priests ("the Jews" in the Gospels) are in charge, convicting Jesus of blasphemy in a trial the Romans do not appear to know about
Facts: Caiaphas was Pilate's subordinate, only Rome could execute, and the Gospels' trial scenes do not justify the 'blasphemy' charge against Jesus
Having seen the movie, Gibson's portrayal of Matthew 26:57-67 seems to be fairly accurate, even down to the words that were spoken. This session takes place before Jesus was handed over to Pontius Pilate. Obviously the Jews had no power to execute, but this council strengthened their resolve in convincing the Roman government to do their bidding.
Also note Matthew 27:1, which is further evidence that the Jewish chief priests' plans to have Jesus put to death. Despite Jesus' prominence, they might have easily had him killed in secret by their own devices, similar to the martyrdom of Stephen in Acts.
The movie also seems to correctly portray the apprehension of Pilate to have Jesus unjustly crucified as stated in the Gospels.
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#206865 - 27/02/2004 09:46
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I think the problem with the Pilate stuff is not that it's inaccurate to the Gospels, but, rather, that the Gospels themselves are inaccurate in that respect. After all, how are Matthew, Mark. Luke, and John (or the people who wrote under their names) going to know how Pilate felt? The Gospel in question implies that Pilate wanted to release Jesus under his prisoner release program, but if you just read his speech, there are multiple ways to interpret it. And how do they know that his wife sent him a note or what it said?
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Bitt Faulk
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#206866 - 27/02/2004 10:40
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: rob]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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I don't think anyone ever said Jesus Christ Superstar was supposed to be accurate and true. It was still greatly disliked by a lot of people though; turning Judas into a sympathetic martyr pissed a lot of people off at the time I believe. I think the only reason it didn't get protested by Jews is the Christians were too busy protesting it. 
On a related note, Carl Anderson, who played Judas in the original soundtrack, in the movie, and as recently as two years ago in the Sebastian Bach revival, died wednesday at 58. I saw him in the recent revival, and he was still blowing the rest of the cast away. http://www.news4jax.com/entertainment/2870199/detail.html
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#206867 - 27/02/2004 12:07
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 01/05/2003
Posts: 768
Loc: Ada, Oklahoma
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There is no doubt that the gospel writers were deficient in revealing their sources... However they hadn't been to Journalism school and most modern journalists are deficient as well.
Biblical writers had no problem diseminating oral tradition as fact without the need of support. The Old Testament is far more problematic. A greater support for the truthfulness of the gospels comes from the lack of opposing material from the same time period.
The use of Josephus and other classical historians is questionable. We use them because we don't have anything better.
I haven't seen the movie yet, however I look foward to seeing it soon. I simply respond because the validity of the biblical text is interesting to me and there are difficulties to discuss. However the difficulties are not as conclusive as some would imply.
(This by the way is not directed at my honorable friend Mr. Faulk.)
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-Michael West
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#206868 - 29/02/2004 17:15
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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By Flavius Josephus' and Philo's accounts, he [Pontius Pilate] was supposedly terribly ruthless in general, often condemning people without trials of any nature. In fact, he was apparently recalled to Rome because he killed too many people. That he would get all weepy over this one Jew seems unlikely.
Hmm, then Bulgakov's interpretation in 'The Master and Margarita' would be, while quite beautiful, historically inaccurate?
On alleged antisemitism: every authoritarian regime and political organization (churches not being exceptions) want to get rid of revolutionary 'troublemakers'; lynch mobs can appear everywhere, especially in those brutal times, with crucifixions playing 'circenses' part of 'panem et circenses'. I would take shout "His blood upon our and our children's heads" (or whatever the wording was) from the crowd as redeeming recognition of wrong being done, not an eternal curse. Finally, this just happened to happen in Palestine, among Jews. I am not Christian, but is it not the whole point that Jesus got killed by those he come to save: humans?
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#206869 - 29/02/2004 17:52
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Finally, this just happened to happen in Palestine, among Jews. I am not Christian, but is it not the whole point that Jesus got killed by those he come to save: humans? From Roger Ebert's review: A reasonable person, I believe, will reflect that in this story set in a Jewish land, there are many characters with many motives, some good, some not, each one representing himself, none representing his religion. The story involves a Jew who tried no less than to replace the established religion and set himself up as the Messiah. He was understandably greeted with a jaundiced eye by the Jewish establishment while at the same time finding his support, his disciples and the founders of his church entirely among his fellow Jews. The libel that the Jews "killed Christ" involves a willful misreading of testament and teaching: Jesus was made man and came to Earth in order to suffer and die in reparation for our sins. No race, no man, no priest, no governor, no executioner killed Jesus; he died by God's will to fulfill his purpose, and with our sins we all killed him. That some Christian churches have historically been guilty of the sin of anti-Semitism is undeniable, but in committing it they violated their own beliefs. Earlier in the review: This scene and others might justifiably be cited by anyone concerned that the movie contains anti-Semitism. My own feeling is that Gibson's film is not anti-Semitic, but reflects a range of behavior on the part of its Jewish characters, on balance favorably. The Jews who seem to desire Jesus' death are in the priesthood, and have political as well as theological reasons for acting; like today's Catholic bishops who were slow to condemn abusive priests, Protestant TV preachers who confuse religion with politics, or Muslim clerics who are silent on terrorism, they have an investment in their positions and authority. The other Jews seen in the film are viewed positively; Simon helps Jesus to carry the cross, Veronica brings a cloth to wipe his face, Jews in the crowd cry out against his torture.
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Matt
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#206870 - 29/02/2004 18:13
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: Dignan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Exactly.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#206871 - 01/03/2004 07:44
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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I think another issue is, Mr. Gibson went to all the trouble making a movie as acurate as possible (subtitles and whatnot) yet jesus looks like a white guy perhaps italian??? Wouldn't he look more like a US security risk?
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#206872 - 01/03/2004 09:01
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: lopan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think another issue is, Mr. Gibson went to all the trouble making a movie as acurate as possible (subtitles and whatnot) yet jesus looks like a white guy perhaps italian??? You know, this point has bothered me somewhat ever since I found out about the movie. Why go through the "authenticity" of using a real language if you can't get the main character's nationality right?
Even so, I hope I'll be able to see the movie soon. Everyone I know has said it was absolutely compelling from a standpoint of faith.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#206873 - 01/03/2004 10:01
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My wife went to see it without me. (She went to see it with some of her Christian friends and didn't want me making fun of them.) I'd say my wife has a pretty strong faith, if somewhat unorthodox, and she was disturbed by the movie. I hope I'm not getting her intent wrong here.
She said that she is pretty used to gory movies (she likes horror movies well enough, if not necessarily splatterpunk) but that the graphicalness (?) was over the top and that she found it disturbing that the director portrayed it in such a loving manner. It's like it was pornographic. (I'm putting words in her mouth, but I think I've got the gist of it.) To the point that she said she though that Mel might need some counseling.
She did say she liked the rest of the movie pretty well, that the baby would probably give her nightmares and that she liked the portrayal of Pilate as this guy who just didn't want to be bothered with dealing with this stuff and was annoyed by it. After listening to her description, I feel that Mel knowingly took license with the story and told what he felt it would have been, not a non-extended word-for-word filming of the Gospels.
I'll get around to seeing it yet.
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Bitt Faulk
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#206874 - 01/03/2004 10:17
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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For the Christian, the blood of Christ is paradoxical - terrible and beautiful at the same time - a necessary sacrifice so that we might achieve salvation.
While I don't deny that Gibson applied a certain amount of artistic license to the movie, I thought that the movie was fairly accurate in its portrayal. I challenge you to read the Gospels before seeing the movie; most of the dilogue is pretty precise.
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#206875 - 01/03/2004 11:13
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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i think that over the two millenia that this happened, the cross has become romanticized as a symbol of the faith. to many Christians, this is a wake up call of how horrible a sacrifice Jesus actually made for all of the world. He despised the cross and the horrors of crucifiction, yet He looked passed it to what would be achieved by it. and according to people who have studied the history of the roman empire, if mel actually put everything that happened in the crucifiction, no one would be able to stomach it. so if anything, the license that mel took was a less-graphical one.
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#206876 - 01/03/2004 11:39
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JBjorgen]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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So I finally look at this thread and get the 666th view (see attached screenshot). 
I should have stayed on vacation.
-Zeke
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#206877 - 01/03/2004 11:46
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: image]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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> For the Christian, the blood of Christ is paradoxical - terrible
> and beautiful at the same time - a necessary sacrifice so
> that we might achieve salvation.
In a converstation yesterday, my father pointed out some interesting points:
1) Catholic churches typically have the suffering christ on the cross over the altar, while most Protestant churches simply have the cross without Jesus. Note, I took his word on this, I don't know if this is true or typical.
2) Catholicism tends to stress the blood sacrifice that Christ has made is *the* final and most important one that God required and that it covers all of our future sins. Protestantism tends to stress the "New Covenant" part of the deal with less stress on the basis in pagan blood sacrifice ritual.
Not really sure I had a point here, but...
-brendan
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#206878 - 01/03/2004 12:01
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: brendanhoar]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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1) Catholic churches typically have the suffering christ on the cross over the altar, while most Protestant churches simply have the cross without Jesus. Note, I took his word on this, I don't know if this is true or typical. Totally true. Christ still on the cross is called a “crucifix” and is definitely non-protestant. Protestants often accuse Catholics of “leaving Christ on the Cross” and emphasizing His death more than His resurrection. Personally, I think this is a silly distinction. It may point to some underlying theological difference the way most protestants accuse, but I have to think it is more cultural than theological in significance. And I see plenty of pictures of Christ on the Cross in protestant churches.
2) Catholicism tends to stress the blood sacrifice that Christ has made is *the* final and most important one that God required and that it covers all of our future sins. Protestantism tends to stress the "New Covenant" part of the deal with less stress on the basis in pagan blood sacrifice ritual. I won’t agree with calling the crucifixion a “pagan blood sacrifice ritual”, but both Catholic and Protestant churches affirm alike that Christ’s sacrifice was the fulfillment of the OT sacrificial system and is therefore part of the “New Covenant”. Additionally protestant churches often (and correctly) state that the blood of Christ is the final, permanent sacrifice that accomplished what OT sacrifices could not, including the forgiveness for all sin, past present and future. So I don’t think this distinction is accurate distinction between the two faiths.
Not for the sake of full disclosure that I am a protestant and know far more about protestant believes than I do Catholic.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#206879 - 01/03/2004 13:11
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: image]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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the cross has become romanticized as a symbol of the faith. to many Christians, this is a wake up call of how horrible a sacrifice Jesus actually made That was actually the argument I made to her about it; that Mel wanted to go over the top because the crucifixion had become this notion rather than a horrifying event -- that it is a horror and a sacrifice. She said "yeah, maybe" but kept talking about the way he romanticized the actual flaying and torture as events themselves. And the glee with which the Romans did it. I think it disturbed her in ways totally apart from the religion.
She also had a problem with the notion that someone tortured as brutally as shown in the movie would have been able to hold himself up or even stay conscious, much less carry a cross. Of course, her faith says that Jesus was a simple mortal man until he died. Some of you may feel otherwise.
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Bitt Faulk
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#206880 - 01/03/2004 14:01
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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> > 2) Catholicism tends to stress the blood sacrifice that Christ
> > has made is *the* final and most important one that God
> > required and that it covers all of our future sins.
>
> I won’t agree with calling the crucifixion a “pagan blood
> sacrifice ritual”, but both Catholic and Protestant churches
> affirm alike that Christ’s sacrifice was the fulfillment of the
> OT sacrificial system and is therefore part of the “New
> Covenant”. Additionally protestant churches often (and
> correctly) state that the blood of Christ is the final,
> permanent sacrifice that accomplished what OT sacrifices
> could not, including the forgiveness for all sin, past present
> and future. So I don’t think this distinction is accurate
> distinction between the two faiths.
Ok, perhaps I made that argument badly. Here's a question: do protestant churches typically have the stations of the cross around the interior of the church? If not (again, I assume), that seems to me to be a stronger indicator that in Catholicism (which does) it is very important that every bit of Christ's pain/insult/torture are supposed to be meditated upon on each or most visits...
-brendan
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#206881 - 01/03/2004 14:28
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: brendanhoar]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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do protestant churches typically have the stations of the cross around the interior of the church? Most protestant churches have empty crosses (emphasizing Christ’s triumph over the cross) displayed prominently. There is a new movement called “seeker sensitive” that tries to curb this process in order to make church less objectionable to “seekers”, but that is by no means a mainline protestant stance (nor do all “seeker sensitive” churches not have crosses displayed). that seems to me to be a stronger indicator that in Catholicism (which does) it is very important that every bit of Christ's pain/insult/torture are supposed to be meditated upon on each or most visits... Perhaps the point is this: it could be argued that Catholics tend to emphasize Christ’s suffering the cross more than the resurrection. If so, this is a subtle difference, as both faiths would agree theologically that both suffering and resurrection were necessary for the redemption of man. In that case the protestants can probably learn a lot about respect for the cross, as we’ve often sanitized it’s meaning into that of jewelry and a pretty paintings. OTOH, the Catholics would do well do remember that the crucifixion was not the end of the matter and that the resurrection confirmed Jesus’ victory over death. In the end, it is difficult to balance everything into proper perspective, and thanks to this movie many protestants are waking to the fact of just how much Christ suffered for our sins. Like I said, I haven't seen the movie yet, but the response of my friends has been universal on this point. We all know Christ suffered for us, but it's become to matter-of-fact and something we accept as a notion without understanding the true consequence.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#206882 - 01/03/2004 15:06
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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>> do protestant churches typically have the stations of the
>> cross around the interior of the church?
>
> Most protestant churches have empty crosses
> (emphasizing Christ’s triumph over the cross) displayed
> prominently.
Ok, those are two different things: the stations of the cross are usually spaced around the inner walls of the church/hall (not at the altar) depecting scenes from the 12 hours before christ's death. Many (all?) of them show his suffering along with other, generally more positive story elements.
I can't recall a Catholic church without them.
-brendan
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#206883 - 01/03/2004 15:16
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: brendanhoar]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Ok, those are two different things: the stations of the cross are usually spaced around the inner walls of the church/hall (not at the altar) depecting scenes from the 12 hours before christ's death. Yes, I understand what you mean. I think, however, this has more to do with tradition than theology, though I could be wrong. In general, symbolism and tradition are used as means of expression far more in the Catholic Church than in the Protestant church. The point remains, however, that whatever the means of expressing it, both Protestants and Catholics are encouraged to dwell on the extent of Christ’s suffering.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#206884 - 01/03/2004 16:24
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: brendanhoar]
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old hand
Registered: 01/05/2003
Posts: 768
Loc: Ada, Oklahoma
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The question of church architecture and icons is more complex than we have time to discuss. Talking about the difference between Catholic and Protestant churches is much like describing the difference between Golden Delicious apples and ALL forms of red apples. Most Protestant churches today are self governed (with notable exceptions) where as the Catholic Church is governed from the top down. Therefore the Catholic Churches (with the notable Protestant exceptions) have more standard floor plans including shapes of the Cross in the floor plan. Where most Protestant churches make such decisions all on there own.
So while I've jumped all over the question... The answer is more complicated. Nearly all Catholic Churches have the stages of the Cross... however I've been in many Protestant churches that do as well. I've never been in a Baptist, Assembly, Church of Christ, etc. (self governed church) that has the stages set in any prominence.
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-Michael West
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#206885 - 01/03/2004 16:44
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: mwest]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Nearly all Catholic Churches have the stages of the Cross... however I've been in many Protestant churches that do as well. What flavour Protestant? I've never seen a Protestant church in the UK with the Stations of the Cross (unless Greek Orthodox counts as Protestant -- they tend to have the Stations of the Cross). Most Protestant churches seem to favour individualised relationships with God, rather than tradition-mediated ones.
Peter
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#206886 - 01/03/2004 16:52
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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She also had a problem with the notion that someone tortured as brutally as shown in the movie would have been able to hold himself up or even stay conscious, much less carry a cross. I bet you've already seen it, but FWIW here once more is Richard Dawkins' seminal essay on how religion is superhumanising and dehumanising, both at once.
Peter
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#206887 - 10/04/2004 21:49
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I finally saw it (I know, late to the party as usual) and I have to say it has been one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I did not find it overly violent, but I realize that's totally due to viewing it through the eyes of faith. Each blow struck I saw as my own inflicted upon my Savior, and the sadistic smiles of the Romans demonstrative of my own sin-sick heart. I wept during this movie, and I'm one who hardly ever cries, especially movies (ask my wife). In fact, I'm largly unemotional even during worship services where others openly display various expressions of joy.
All that being said, if I were coming at this as only a movie, I'd probably agree with many of the views I've read about the level of violence. It works more as an expression of faith and devotion more than it does as a movie. So for those of you who haven't gone to see it yet I can only say that what you believe the purpose of the crusifixion was will determine how this movie will (or will not) speak to you.
As far as the inaccuracies mentioned earlier in this thread, from a biblical standpoint they got the timeline exactly right. Jesus prayed in the garden, was arrested, taken to a Jewish trial, taken to Pilot, taken to Herod, taken back to Pilot, and then sent to the cross. I didn't see anything anti-semitic other than the New Testament view that the Jewish religious leaders rejected Jesus as the messiah and conspired to kill him. I think the portrayls of Pilot and Harod both were extremely well done: Pilot more interested in power (and saving his neck) than justice, and Harod more interested in pleasure and entertainment than truth.
While the overall trial, torture, and execution of Jesus were as dead-on as I think they could have done, there were a few things that raised my eyebrows. The added bits with Satan were interesting and added an interesting context to many of the scenes. My wife REALLY objected to the use of children to portray deamons; I'm not sure what the rationale behind that was. The scene where the raven pecked out the theifs eyes mistified me and I thought it was unnecessary. Mary was portreyed more from a Catholic view than a protestant one (as should be expected), but even this was quite restrained. The focus was definitly on Christ.
I did feel at the end of the movie that I'd have liked to see more of the resurrection, but I realize that's a bit beyond the scope of what Mel was trying to do. However, I left feeling a little unsatisfied, like only half the story was told. But then again, I think I will have a great perspective on Easter this year; I will truly be able to rejoice that He is alive!
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#206888 - 10/04/2004 23:53
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I thought it was spelled "Pilate"?
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#206889 - 11/04/2004 01:43
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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My wife REALLY objected to the use of children to portray deamons; Now that you mention it, it is rather odd, particularly when you consider how often Christ and others mention that we ought to be child-like.
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#206890 - 11/04/2004 11:04
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I thought it was spelled "Pilate"? Yup, I knew I was missing something . . .  Upon reflection, I have a couple of more things to add. It was interesting that they pictured Mary Magdeline as the woman who was caught in adultery ("let he who has not sinned throw the first stone") when the text never identifies that woman; In fact, Mary Magdeline is identified as a woman from whom Jesus had driven seven deamons. One other thing I really liked about the movie was the various reactions people had to Jesus. These were very well done, with some despising him, some adoring him, some being intrigued with him, some bothered by him, and others in awe of him. While the character of Jesus himself offered little depth after the first scene in the garden where he struggled with and accepted his task, these other people added more dyanimcs to the movie and allowed me characters I could empathize with. Now I really want to see the sequal . . .
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#206891 - 12/04/2004 11:28
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I thought it was spelled "Pilate"? Yup, I knew I was missing something . . . You also misspelled "Herod".
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Bitt Faulk
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#206892 - 12/04/2004 13:34
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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#206893 - 12/04/2004 13:42
Re: The Passion of the Christ
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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member
Registered: 09/03/2002
Posts: 178
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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former owner...now I'm just another schmuck
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