I'm not sure where to post this (Technical or General) and with everyone in Europe for the meet, maybe it won't matter.

I'm trying to drop a new Hitachi Travelstar 80gig in with my stock 30gig drive. But I've been pouring over the Drive Upgrade Guide and I have some questions:

Washers: The picture shows red washers under the stock hard drive. Are those rubber gaskets or metal washers (or something else)? I figured rubber would be nice for shock mounting and metal would be bad for shorting out things. The traces on the Travelstar 80's are pretty close to the screw holes, so I'm REALLY hesitant to use even the smallest metal washers I can find. And what height should they be?

Screws: The screws in the DUG pictures are SO small and have such flat heads. The closest thing in my bag-o-screws is a little longer with a slightly rounded head. Is the height of the screw head really THAT tight that it needs to be flat?

Hot Melt Glue vs. Thread-Lock: What IS thread-lock compound and can I get it at Radio Shack or something? Or will a hot glue gun do the trick to secure the drive and cradle screws? And is it cool to use hot melt glue on the drive jumper?

Initial Warning: It's just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a little warning at the top of the DUG saying "Read this whole thing first and be SURE to have ALL the tools and parts on hand and ready."

Ok, all, wish me luck with the Hyperterminal stuff and hope I don't bust my display board. OOh, how I hate to break that warranty seal...

Washers: The picture shows red washers under the stock hard drive. Are those rubber gaskets or metal washers (or something else)? I figured rubber would be nice for shock mounting and metal would be bad for shorting out things. The traces on the Travelstar 80's are pretty close to the screw holes, so I'm REALLY hesitant to use even the smallest metal washers I can find. And what height should they be?

I used hard plastic ones for mine they were intended to be used as shock spacers on an RC car. They were about one mm thick. I wouldn't use metal for fear of shorting.

Hot Melt Glue vs. Thread-Lock: What IS thread-lock compound and can I get it at Radio Shack or something? Or will a hot glue gun do the trick to secure the drive and cradle screws? And is it cool to use hot melt glue on the drive jumper?

The hot melt glue is to hold on the HDD cable and the thread lock is to hold the screws in it prevents the screws from vibrating lose. You can get thread lock at a auto parts store (usually called loctite)

For the screws I took mine apart and just got ones that matched the screws that were holding the existing HDD in.

I think the red washers are the kind you use in a PC to separate the motherboard from the mounting screws. You should be able to get some at your local PC dealer -- wherever you might buy a case or a motherboard.

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I wouldn't use metal for fear of shorting.

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Dont the screws provide a conductive path ?

I also have a concern with excessive screw torque values / tightening sequence, and the effect on spindle distortion. I tend to use the lowest torques values I think I can get away with.

Dont the screws provide a conductive path ?

Using metal washers is fine (my mk2a has metal washers), provided that they're not much bigger than the screws. The danger is that the washers might be a little big and overlap with the PCB, potentially causing a short. This is very unlikely, though.

As you say, the screws provide a conductive path, so (right-size) metal washers aren't going to be an issue.

If you're worried, those little plastic washers used on PC motherboard standoffs would be ideal.

I've got both the screws and washers available from stock (carsupport@xs4all.nl).

Interesting replies, thanks everyone.

Thread-lock:
Locktite. So, THAT"S what that stuff is. I might just have some.

Washers:
First, what's the deal with the "conductive path"? I thought the screw holes were somehow isolated from the PCB or other electrically sensitive components on the drive.

And the washers that I've used for motherboards are SO thin and, generally, feel like felt. I wouldn't trust a drive with them. I don't have a ruler, but the metal washers I'm considering are pretty thick: over half the thickness of a dime and barely bigger than the head of the screw. Seems like a good size to me, but maybe not enough to raise the drive about the electrical tape?

Torque:
Hmm, the only screws I have which have near-flat heads are kind of long. I thought that length would help go through the sled, washers, and into the drive. But, I might have to turn them pretty tight to get it to work. So, you're saying this is bad? Like, it might throw off the geometry of the spindle in the hdd? Woah.

Ok, I'm just going to open my damn thing up (carefully) and see what kind of components are inside. Rob, I might just need those screws and washers from you. Thanks.

Ok, I just took apart my player (for the first time) and looked at the screw and washer situation. My measurements are based on the assumption that the empeg metal case is 1mm think (right?).

Yup, my MKIIa has the red rubber washers (gaskets?). Looks like they are 1mm. My 1mm washers are bit larger in circumference than the stock ones, but I think they will do. It appears that my 80 gig Travelstar has the PCB recessed just the slightest bit below the bottom metal on the drive. So, my metal washers appear to rest on the metal around the screw holes; 1/2mm above the PCB. Also, the washers fit the screws well enough that they only come within 1/2mm of the nearest contact point on the PCB.

Is it safe to be using metal within these 1/2mm margins?
May the washers flex and touch the PCB once they are screwed to the sled?
Does it matter of the metal washers touch the green part of the drive PCB if they aren't touching the copper connect points?

Ok, about the screws. It looks like the slightly rounded head of my screws are about 2mm tall, as compaired to the stock 1mm head height. Will that pose a problem with clearance on the motherboard?

And torque. Dang, the stock hdd screws were BARELY tight. Interesting.

Oh, and one of my washers has rust on it. Not much. A big deal? Hahaha, I'll clean it first. Thanks for your help.

And torque. Dang, the stock hdd screws were BARELY tight. Interesting.

That's why you need the loctite It would be bad if they fell out and landed on the PCB.

Thread-lock: Locktite. So, THAT"S what that stuff is. I might just have some.

Be a little careful that what you are intending to use is actually “Thread-Locking” material.

Loctite is just a brand name, most of their products are high performance adhesives, use one of those and the only way to remove your drive will be to drill the screws out or heat the drive to over 100 deg C to break down the adhesive – NOT RECOMMENDED!.

Also Thread-lock is available in different types, depending on whether the part will ever be disassembled, make sure you choose the one that allows this. Then use the thread locking compound VERY SPARINGLY and all will be well.

As for torquing up the screws, if you use those small handy “jewellers” screwdrivers then (theoretically) it will be difficult to over do it because you just can’t exert the same force with those puny screwdrivers as a standard one.

And….. finally, if you do use thread-lock, you hardly need to apply any torque at all, just stop when you meet the first resistance, the thread-lock will do the rest.

Cheers, Sim

Yes that is right if he uses the "red" thread lock the drive will never come off! Be shure to use the "blue" stuff. Oh and about the screws, I used some off an old pc power supply case they are a perfect match for the original ones.

I had my washers doubled up for some reason - I split up the sets and used singles on each drive to go along w/ electrical tape on the drive trays. After a year, I've had no issues.

I don't have washers at all. Working!
Electrical tape is under both drives though.

Thanks for the replies. You all are great. Some replies from me:

One last question (for now). Do I use Thread-Lock on the hard drive screws? Or is that some kind of taboo electrical risk or something?

simspos: Thanks for the tip. I was about to go buy some Loctite in the next 30 minutes. I would have got the wrong stuff if not for you.

mrfixit: So, blue Thread-Lock brand compound? I'll see if I can get some. I hope the container is blue or something. I don't want to stand in the store and spray the stuff on my fingers to find out it's blue.
And yeah, I'll try some screws from a power supply. Haha, those old AT supplies ARE good for something after all!

csf: Yeah, my stock washers are doubled up too. They are SO thin though. 1/2mm?

decay: Wow, bold. So between csf's thin washers and your NO washers, I should be set.

Ok, I'm doing the upgrade tonight. Wish me luck!

Yes. Use the threadlock on the hard drive screws. Don't tighten the screws too tight and let the threadlock provide the resistance.

And around here the blue threadlock is in a red bottle. Just read the package and make sure it says something about it being easy to break with hand tools.

The washers are just to make up for slight irregularities in the flatness of the drive and the tray. Having the drive stand off any is enough.

>The washers are just to make up for slight irregularities in the flatness of the drive and the tray.

Uhoh, now that gives me ANOTHER nanometric thing to worry about. If I use metal washers which are ever so slightly different thicknesses, might that compound the problem of flatness irregularities? (ok, so how many words did I spell wrong in that last sentence?)

I'm so worried about how fragile this laptop drive is. I don't want to twist the frame ever so slightly by seating it on an uneven surface. So, I guess I HAVE to find those tiny rubber washers... Looks like reassembly will be a July 4th project.

The deal is that the tray can push up on the spindle, which is even with the bottom of the drive casing. As long as you have even a nanometer of space there, you'll be okay. You're going to twist the tray before the cast aluminum drive casing, too. Just don't torque it to hell and back.

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I don't want to twist the frame ever so slightly by seating it on an uneven surface

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I wonder if the tray would deflect more than the drive itself ? The drive casing seems a lot more rigid to me.

Rubber washers may NOT be the way to go, as the extra damping may work against you.

Sorry these are just thoughts, could be complete twoddle

Unintentional bump for no reason.

Ok, "step 2" of the drive upgrade is done; I've connected the second drive and managed to get some tunes on it. (step 1 was just taking the thing apart without breaking anything).

Soon as I get thread-lock and a glue gun, I'll put ALL of everyone's good advice to use in step 3: reassembly.

<whiny> Damn IT! My new 2 drive set up worked just fine with everything connected yet sprawled all over my desk. Now that I reassemble it, I get the Kernel panic yadda yadda yadda. Yes, I read the FAQ and Forum and will try all the stuff. I was probably too rough with the cable and drives while mounting the second drive.

But I am writing to ask:
Is there a trick to mounting the new drive and its washers?

I ended up putting the back two screws through the sled, putting the washers on the proper end, then carefully lowering the drive into place; flipping the sled and drive over with my fingers on the screws, then carefully tightning them (a bit) so they'd stay. I then had to use tweezers to place the front two washers in place between the drive and the sled. What a mess.

So, all that stress probably messed up my cable. With support gone, is there a way to get a new one? Let me fiddle with it first, but I'll probably come crying back. I hope my empeg can make it to its first birthday. It's 10 months in... SO close!

Also, (I know I'm being so paranoid about this upgrade) the travel of the installed shock mount sled doesn't seem to be right. I can see the primary drive and its connector hitting the display board cable. In fact, the display board cable is slightly twisted to get out of the way of the primary drive's connector.

Also, the new drive seems quite caught up on the 4 power (?) wires from the docking connector. That's hurting the cradle's front-back motion. Then there's a little jumper on the display board with the cradle can touch if it's pushed far enough forward, but I'm not TOO worried about this.

Ok, off to check my cable, I am.

Phew, I used the trusty "wrap two folds of your shirt around either end of the connector and squeeze with plyers" technique to tighten the crimps on my cables. All three connectors looked loose, but the primary one looked worse than the pic in the FAQ.

So, I will continue to wonder how I could get a new cable or if I even need one. Oh well, at least I can stop listening to the radio that I've been subjected to for the 4 days it took to do the drive upgrade. Nano-neurosis has it's faults, I guess.

Is there a trick to mounting the new drive and its washers?

I can't see why you'd need to do it again.

But for trying to do anything similar in the future, consider using a _weak_ threadlock compound to hold the washers in place on the tray. You'd have to wait for it to dry. If course this isn't ideal if the washers _need_ to be able to move freely - you'd have to back the screws off slightly and 'fiddle' the washers loose with some suitable implement. It also is less than ideal if the screw in question is intended to carry any current. In that case conductive paint might work to keep the washers in place. If all else fails, consider grease, vaseline or even saliva. (But you'd have to consider possible long term effects of these - grease or vaseline would attract and hold dust, saliva could conceivably cause corrosion problems, although unlikely.)

So, I will continue to wonder how I could get a new cable

email Rob Schofield, he has cables to sell...

schofiel@xs4all.nl

cheers, Thomas

I always used to use nail polish to keep screws and washers in place. A small blob on side of the screw head keeps things in place. It can also easily be removed if you want to get the screw out. Do NOT put nail polish in the thread of the screw.

Excelent, thanks all for the great tips. Case closed. The 110 gig empeg is running great!

Hm, I just had a thought about this. I managed to loosen my IDE connectors by being too rough with them. I squeezed them back together with plyers and now they work fine.

But, could I prevent them seperating them again by covering the seams of the black IDE cable header with hot melt glue? I mean, provided I don't goop it on too thick which would keep it from plugging into the drive right.

Or would the hot melt glue not be enough to prevent the IDE cable header from pulling those few millimeters to cause problems? Thanks all.

Anything's better than nothing.

I've used the hot glue to keep cables held together myself. CA (crazyglue) might work, too.

My impression was that they were not crimped completely to begin with, not that they came loose over time.

Of course, I could be wrong.