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#136349 - 21/01/2003 19:01 UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
This is normally a very personal matter but considering this is THE place where you can ask questions about just about anything it can't hurt.....

My 10yr old son was assaulted in school last Friday..
Let me clarify a little... In the cloakroom, he was grabbed by the hair by someone I'll call 'DP', dragged to the floor and punched 3 or 4 times in the abdomem. An ex-school helper witnessed the event and broke it up promptly. Ok, it might sound a little strong to use the term 'assault' but if it were you or I then as adults I presume we'd describe it in that way to a police officer. Other than that no 'real' harm was done and no injuries sustained.

Reason: Apparently my son was trying to explain to DP that a particular child had grazed his knee in the playground and asked DP to be careful as he was about to barge into him in the cloakroom (DP's normal clumsy behaviour) and DP blew his top as a result.

As an anecdotal backgrounder, DP is a 'problem' child with behavioural difficulties enjoying life in a 'normal' school. We both sympathise with parents of 'problem' children, in fact we know a few parents ourselves with 'special needs' children but we will not accept that the the excessive unruly, voilent and disruptive behaviour of so few should affect or dilute our child's education (and that of his peers for that matter). Ok, I expect that special needs schools are a conundrum of (potentially) unsavoury children with difficulties and are to be avoided at all costs (to the parent) but for the sake of one why should my (or anyone else's for that matter) child's education and safety be compromised? Just to keep things in perspective about this child, after the cloakroom assault, he (DP) really had to think hard to come up with a reason as to why he'd behaved that way - it's nothing personal towards my son or any other child, it's just the way he is.

Then today, Tuesday, after morning break the class returned to the classroom to sit on the the floor mats. My son 'accidentally' (I mean accidentally. He, like others in his class, try to give DP a wide berth as much as possible) sat where DP prefers to sit. The exact details are sketchy (I do not want to raise the profile of this 'incident' with my son for his sake) but DP threatened my son by raising a pair of scissors (sharp scissors brought from home and not the usual primary school rounded ones) above his chest and threatening to strike mid-abdominally, fortunately nothing happened.

Now, my son is not being victimised by this individual as such. It's purely a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Another child had a chair thrown at her by DP along with numerous class disruptions and so on and so forth.

I would be very interested and grateful to hear from other people with experience of the UK educational system on this subject (and other geographies but those experiences may prove to be purely anecdotal [such as mine I fear]).

IMO, DP should be excluded from my son's school for his behaviour because the needs of the one are being put before the needs of the many while he is allowed to continue his bad behaviour and disruptions to the class as a whole (I haven't really described all of the 'normal' class-wide disruptions DP causes BTW).

We don't fully understand the hierarchy involved with UK schools but as I understand it it goes something like this: School (headmaster) -> Board of Governors -> Local Council Authority: It might help us to understand this better.

In the past we have learned that the school staff close ranks on matters of this nature so we're not expecting our expectations to be met entirely but we want some 'real' action taken this time. To worsen matters, we believe DP's father is on the board of governors (I wonder why!).

Anecdotally, we know that various other incidents have not been reported and considering the parents concerned that comes as no surprise (unfortunately). The ex-class helper will possibly stand up to be counted but that's about it. Ok, it's a confidential matter between the parent/pupil(DP)/headmaster so we don't expect to be told everything that's gone on with DP.

To sum up, we need advice on how to progress this matter with the school (etc) and get results. It's probably only a matter of time before someone's child receives a serious 'accidental' injury.

We have a meeting planned with the headmaster next Monday and we know he will try to fob us off with some BS. Ok, it's up to us to let him (or not) get away with that and that's the whole point to this post really, what's our best ammunition and/or approach to achieve our goal etc.?

Thanks,
Andrew

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#136350 - 22/01/2003 00:07 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
Sorry, I don't have any actual advice since I don't live in England. So I don't know what things are like over there.

But if it were my kid being threatened with a sharp deadly instrument in our school, especially by a child with known tantrum issues, "DP" would be permanently out of that school so fast he wouldn't have time to clean out his desk. I don't care who his parents are, they could be the president and the first lady for all I care, that kid's not going to be allowed to threaten my child with a deadly weapon any more. Not one single time more.

And if the school balks at expelling the child, the next people to hear about it would be the local newspaper. Then the local television station. Imagine the impact of a cute 10 year old on the screen saying, "He tried to stab me with the sharp scissors, but the school keeps him here even though Dad says he's dangerous."

Hey, now THERE'S an idea. Get the local TV station to tape a pre-interview with you and your son, and have the quote ready to play to the headmaster. Then have the TV station waiting outside of the meeting with the headmaster. I think it would make the meeting go much more smoothly in your favor, don't you think?

Oh wait. In the UK, you don't even have local TV stations, or do you? They probably don't go for sensationalist news stories like that anyway. Here in the US, our local TV stations would eat that stuff right up. It'd be in the top five stories of the night on the 6 o'clock news. How's that sort of thing done in the UK?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#136351 - 22/01/2003 02:14 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Another non-UK person chiming in, here...

In the US (and possibly in Canada, but it's been so long since I've seen any news from home), a zero-tolerance policy was adopted after the last few rounds of school shootings. Any sort of threatening action is grounds for expulsion, and I do mean any -- see the entry for May 16th here.

I can't find any mention of such policies in the UK. Good luck, and I hope your kid stays safe...


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#136352 - 22/01/2003 02:32 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: tfabris]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
In reply to:

Oh wait. In the UK, you don't even have local TV stations, or do you? They probably don't go for sensationalist news stories like that anyway. Here in the US, our local TV stations would eat that stuff right up. It'd be in the top five stories of the night on the 6 o'clock news. How's that sort of thing done in the UK?




The UK is a little too small for that, the BBC is divided into regions which have their own short news programs, everything else comes from London as part of the national news. I don't think they'd be particularly interested until someone was seriously injured, then they usually swing into action. ITV (Independant Television), until recently did more regional programming than the BBC but their continuity is now done from London as well, putting ITV in a similar position to the beeb. I think you'd probably stand a better chance of getting on ITV local news. Schools over here don't seem to be afraid of bad publicity...
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#136353 - 22/01/2003 02:37 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: canuckInOR]
Biscuitsjam
enthusiast

Registered: 22/01/2002
Posts: 355
I would normally say that his best bet is to fight the bully. I did that in elementary school and got them to leave me alone. Not only that, but when I gave a bully 4 years older than myself a black eye, he tried to become my friend. Zero tolerance kind of puts a damper on fighting, but it would still probably be worth it in most cases.

However, the way you have described this kid, he seems dangerous. Threatening people with scissors is not normal behavior, so your kid could very well get hurt. You should work your way up the chain of command in the school system. Never make threats: "I'm going to get you fired," "You're going to get a call from my lawyer," or "This will make the 5 o'clock news" are not going to get you meaningful results. Instead, it is better if you go into any meeting with two people. One person plays the nice guy routine, while the other plays the mean guy routine (without making threats). If they prove to be uncooperative, the nice guy can play the really-mean guy routine, still not making threats, until they back down a little. If you still haven't gotten any results, go up one level to their boss. Rinse, repeat, until you have gotten as high as you can go. Only then should you consider outside action (TV, etc.).

Another advantage of having two people is that you can have one person watch their facial expressions and reactions while the other is conversing. This gives you an enormous advantage. If a tactic isn't working, the other person can get around the impasse. If they try to back down from something said earlier, you have two people to call them on it. You are going to be severely disadvantaged if only one person goes into the meeting.

If you make threats, you are only going to make them want the problem to go away, probably by passing it on to somebody else. You do NOT want them to just keep passing the buck around! If they finally were to give in from threats, which is unlikely without a LOT of pressure, you would be a pariah in your town and your kid would be ostracized at school. Try it the easy way first.

Note: There are also strategies you can use in conversations. Mirroring (imitating someone's stance, etc.) often helps to develop a quick rapport. If they cross their legs, cross your legs. Another simple tactic is repeating what they said. "So what you are saying is, I should rephrase whatever they said?" There are hundreds of other tactics like this. They work, and work well, as long as they aren't too obvious or used too much. If you aren't comfortable doing them, keep it to a minimum.

-Biscuits

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#136354 - 22/01/2003 03:54 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: tfabris]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Get the local TV station to tape a pre-interview with you and your son

the LAST thing you, the school or the other child's parents want is the media. They will NOT solve the problem; just make life difficult for all involved. Especially your son.
What actions is the school taking to moderate this child's behaviour? It really doesn't sound like there is much being done. Maybe, and I hate to say it, there are drugs the boy could take until he grows out of this rage cycle.
Have you talked with or know what the parents are doing with this child? If they're not doing anything, they're negligent.

I hope you've talked to your son (it sounds like you have) about this boy. You should be really proud of him that he understands that DP should be avoided where possible AND that he shouldn't retaliate if anything does. He's a brave lad.

Expulsion may be the answer, but it would be best, perhaps, if the family concerned moved DP to a school that could better cater for his needs. It sounds like he has a few. Vilifying him relentlessly wont help him.
_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#136355 - 22/01/2003 04:00 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
The best thing you can do is what you are doing: go to the headmaster, relate the story as you know it, explain your concerns. Bear in mind that, for the confidentiality reasons you've already cited, only the teaching staff in the school can see the big picture here. Bear in mind, too, that if the other kid gets sent to a special school, the road back from there to normal society is a very rarely-travelled one: expulsion, especially from primary schools, is usually used only in provably irredeemable cases.

I wouldn't mention the "closing ranks" thing, or the thing about the kid's father being a governor. I wouldn't demand "real action". Comments like that will detract from the valid concerns that you do have.

I don't think you'll have any luck taking your story to even the feeblest local newspaper, for the sad-but-true reason that it's not news: everything you've described happens in every school in the country on a regular basis. Again, unless the incidents you describe are part of a wider pattern, then I think it's certain that the other kid will be disciplined, possibly even suspended, but unlikely that he'd be expelled.

When I was at primary school there was a kid in my class who was a bit like your DP sounds. He lived his life with the random violence which he'd experienced in his own home life. He beat everyone up at least once, including me. He didn't get expelled (I guess he might have had suspensions, but I don't remember it). Then suddenly, at age 11, to everyone's surprise including his own, he discovered he had an amazing singing voice. He sang beautiful solos in several school productions and the violence just stopped. Stopped. I'm sure that if they'd bundled him off to a special school at age 10 he'd be in prison today.

I'm not trying to claim that the problems here are minor, but they may be less serious than you think. (From your comment about "not raising the profile" of it with your own child, it sounds like he wasn't too traumatised.) If I were you, I'd express my concerns and then trust the teachers. Anger management is their job.

Peter

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#136356 - 22/01/2003 04:06 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: tfabris]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
But if it were my kid being threatened with a sharp deadly instrument in our school, especially by a child with known tantrum issues, "DP" would be permanently out of that school so fast he wouldn't have time to clean out his desk. I don't care who his parents are, they could be the president and the first lady for all I care, that kid's not going to be allowed to threaten my child with a deadly weapon any more. Not one single time more.

And if the school balks at expelling the child, the next people to hear about it would be the local newspaper. Then the local television station. Imagine the impact of a cute 10 year old on the screen saying, "He tried to stab me with the sharp scissors, but the school keeps him here even though Dad says he's dangerous."


Then imagine the defamation suit caused by widely exaggerating ("scissors" becomes "weapon", "threatened" becomes "tried to stab") an event to which there were no adult eye-witnesses.

Peter

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#136357 - 22/01/2003 04:08 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
boxer
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
I have spoken to the head of a primary school, who is the wife of one of my oldest friends ( I hope its not your son's!)

She confirms - off the record - that a head does not want matters raised that she is obliged to report to the education authority, and teachers tend to go along with that, by "not bothering her" unless it's drastic.

It's not a very pleasant thing to be told.

She advises that you should contact the School Governor's office at your education committee to ascertain a named person and write detailing all the facts and how they affect your son's education.

Do not co-opt other parents into writing, unless you know them very well, nor mention in your letter that other parents agree with you, unless you are absolutely sure of your ground.

Do not offer opinions on what should be done with the pupil concerned, as you have done in your posting, that's for them to discuss in committee - and you will get a negative reaction for doing their job for them.

If you are not happy with the response, ask for a meeting - but you will probably have to detail why you think a meeting with the Head is not viable.

Sorry, I took it down in longhand over the phone, but that's the gist of it, hope it helps.

P.S. I see where you live now, so it's not your son's head! Just one small point, procedures may differ with different authorities, for instance I can't find a governor's office listed for Harrogate, where I live.


Edited by boxer (22/01/2003 06:06)
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag

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#136358 - 22/01/2003 11:09 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & [Re: peter]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Then suddenly, at age 11, to everyone's surprise including his own, he discovered he had an amazing singing voice. He sang beautiful solos in several school productions and the violence just stopped.

Peter, you wouldn't happen to have a stock of stories like this, would you? I hope it's not too much to ask, but if you could post one at, say 10AM your time (work days, anyway), then I could read it when I get up.

That would be really great.

(seriously, anything I know about the experience of 10 year-olds is outdated by, oh, 40 years. The situation as described made me wonder about the degree of behavioral problems -- falling into "special needs" category?? -- and things like "mainstreaming", but that isn't obvious from the description. IMO, your approach wins the sage award, and your story about your 11 year-old singing compatriot is great.)
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#136359 - 22/01/2003 11:31 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: peter]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I agree with Tony that this kid should be expelled and fast (and would be in the school districts around here). It may be that this would disrupt his social development, but being in an environment where you are threatened in a very real and physical sense isn't good for social development either. It's true that this boy may never actually act on his threats, but even the threat of violence is harmful.

As far as anger management being the teacher’s job, I totally disagree. It's the parent’s job to raise a child and teach him or her how to behave. If a parent can't rein the child in, there isn't a place for him or her in a public school system.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#136360 - 22/01/2003 11:34 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & [Re: boxer]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Do not co-opt other parents into writing, unless you know them very well, nor mention in your letter that other parents agree with you, unless you are absolutely sure of your ground.

Of another set of thoughtful recommendations, this jumps out. Amazing how many folks will agree, commiserate, bitch and moan -- but then disappear when things get uncomfortable.

(Side note: Boxer, just how do I join the chapter? What is the age of eligibility? I think I met the 3rd potential member at CES.)
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#136361 - 22/01/2003 13:04 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & [Re: AndrewT]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Remember that the sharp scissors probably belonged to the school - teachers have a need for scissors too. You do want to raise the question of how 'DP' got his hands on them though.

I'd suggest that starting at the bottom of the chain is a good idea. Teachers tend to be overworked - 30 kids is a handful whichever way you look at it, and going immediately up the ladder is not going to help get the teacher onside. It's possible (probable?) that the teacher remains completely unaware of the scissor situation, and it's not fair to let him/her be in that situation whilst you go the the headteacher.

That being said, the cloakroom situation is the headteacher's domain. So you do need to speak to them too.

I'd suggest having a quiet word with the teacher first; Bring the scissor situation to their attention, and inform them that you need to talk to the headteacher about the other situation anyway, and that you intend to discuss the scissor situation at the same time. The teacher may well get defensive - just be calm but insistent. If the teacher says that he/she was completely unaware of the incident then accept that at face value, but don't let him/her talk you out of speaking to the headteacher.

At the end of this, the teacher needs to know;
1) About the incident.
2) That you appear to be a reasonable and calm parent looking to resolve the situation, and not on a witch hunt.
3) That the incident is going to be be further discussed with the headteacher.

Then set up a meeting - yourself, the headteacher, the teacher and the ex-helper. Arrive with an agenda; 1) The cloakroom incident, 2) The scissor incident, and 3) A proposed action plan.

It may be that the headteacher is not willing to accept the ex-helper being privy to the whole meeting, (due to their 'ex'- status, and the students' rights to privacy). But you do need to get their version of the cloakroom incident accepted into the meeting early on - it validates your concerns, and is likely to result in the (unseen) scissor incident being taken more seriously.

The proposed action plan should be realistic, well defined, and time-limited.

I'd suggest;
1) The teacher agrees to ensure that any potentially dangerous implements are stored safely out of reach. (Note the wording is important - you want the teacher to readily agree to do something *that they should already be doing* and to avoid placing any blame on the teacher for the past incident)
2) The teacher agrees to pay closer attention to interactions between 'DP' and other children (in particular your child), and to keep the headteacher updated weekly.
3) The head teacher agrees to take notice of those reports, and take action when necessary - a first step might be to provide extra classrom assistance to the teacher. If this kid really is dangerous (as opposed to just a bully), then to take immediate action to ensure the safety of other children in the classroom.
4) You agree to bring any other incidents that you hear about to the headteacher's attention in a timely manner.
5) The head teacher agrees to give you an update of any issues at half term.
6) The head teacher agrees a further conference to be held at the end of term, at which point either the issue has been dealt with, the 'watch' needs to be continued, or further action is necessary. (Ideally the first..)

The issue that I haven't addressed at all here is that of 'DP''s parents. They have a need to know that their kid is being scrutinised. Not only that, but they could be the solution to the problem. I'd suggest leaving that to the headteacher. (In fact, maybe make that another action point).

The point of the action plan being time-limited is that you just cannot put another family's kid under a life-time watch. It won't achieve anything but restrict your actions for escalating any issues. Having the plan with a defined end point defines when it's time to see whether the plan is working, and when to take further action if necessary.

At all costs, avoid losing your cool, or placing blame on the school or teachers. You need them to be proactive in resolving the issue, not thinking that you're Mr Unreasonable, nor covering their butts.

I'll leave you with a few thoughts;
1) Everyone is bullied in some way at some point in their lives. Learning how to deal with bullies is an important part of growing up. (That's not to say that dangerous or injurious behaviour should be condoned...)

2) Everyone has to learn what behaviour is acceptable and what is not at some point in their lives. Different people will obviously learn this at different times, and the triggers and methods of this learning will also be different. Don't assume that 'DP' will always be a bully.

3) It is far better for the issue to be resolved within the school if possible. Every escalation increases the chances that 'DP's life degenerates into a repetitive cycle of school exclusions and violence, something which I think that everyone would like to avoid.

_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#136362 - 22/01/2003 18:08 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
I called my father and asked him about the best way to proceed with a situation like this. Amongst his many, many years of teaching experience (He's 76 now, taught from about 20ish until forcibly retired at 71! ), he spent 15 years working at a 'special needs school', which is packed full of kids of the type you are having a problem with. What follows is distilled from his dispensed wisdom I've also had a little experience of this sort of child, both from observing them in his school and being on the recieving end in mine, many years ago, so I sympathise with you.

There are really two types of children in these schools. One is the evil little bugger, who is often fairly bright, amoral at best, a sociopath at worst, and causes trouble because he either likes it or doesn't see any good reason not to. The other type is the one that has genuine behavioural problems, is often educationally subnormal (PC for 'a bit thick'), tends to be somewhat clumsy, and is prone to snapping mentally at very little provocation. They then throw a major fit, which can range from rolling around on the ground screaming to beating the crap out of an unfortunate bystander. When they calm down, which often involves a teacher sitting on them for a few minutes, they're often ashamed at their own behaviour and somewhat at a loss to explain it.

Labelling a child like this a bully is not entirely fair, since in many cases they are not. However, as my father put it, 'Being behaviourally disturbed is an explanation, not an excuse'. Any person has a duty to take control of his own behaviour and actions, not let them take control of him. Even at age 10, the vast majority of children are aware of this.

If your problem child is of the first type, you have little recourse but to either arrange to get rid of him, or move your own child to a different school, I think. However, from your description, the boy is more likely of the second type, and some thought must be given to ways of resolving the situation without escalating it to the point he ends up in a special needs place, if at all possible. While you have, obviously, both a right and a duty to see that no avoidable harm befalls your son, relegating another child to such a facility is something I at least would have to think very carefully about. Once in, they stand a 99% chance of staying there for good, and these schools are pretty much just a holding pen for kids until they're old enough to be sent to prison. Almost all of my father's students ended up like that, despite his best efforts and theirs. Several could have been redeemed if they hadn't been classified as 'difficult'. Seems a waste.

Anyway, what my father said is in several points:

1) Make your son aware of what the most likely reason for this child's behaviour is, and that it may not be entirely his (DPs) fault, and is certainly not his (your son's) fault. From your description, your son is already aware of this, so it shouldn't be a problem.

2) The school has a legal responsibility to keep your (or anybodies) child safe while he or she in in their care, including from other children. This responsibility used to be from the time the child left your home until the time he returned, and my father says he believes this is still the case. The school must be made to recognise this fact, and to recognise you are aware of it. He suggests a carefully worded letter to the headmaster as a first action, calmly detailing the events as you understand them and asking for their immediate action to prevent such things happening in future. The school must also explain to DP that his actions are unacceptable. The fact that a potential weapon was used to threaten one of their pupils adds urgency, and they should institute measures to stop such items being available to the child.

Explain to the school that not only they, but you have a duty to protect your son, and you won't back down, but do it politely. Shouting at the headmaster in a meeting, or immediately threatening legal action, is likely to be counterproductive. It's also important to follow the chain of command. Jumping instantly to the school board is most likely to have them simply refer it back to the headmaster, as they will take the fairly reasonable attitude that it is his responsibility to act on the matter. Start with the head, and work up to the board if you don't get acceptable results.

3) If at all possible, involve parents of other students who have had similar run-ins. The more people involved on your side, and the more evidence, the more likely prompt action will be taken.There may be a parent's representative on the school board, and if so talking to them might be helpful. Again, if this is the case, wait until you've contacted the headmaster first.

4) If you have no joy with the preceding actions, it may be worthwhile contacting a representative of one of the teachers unions and talking to them about it. For state schools this is the National Union of Teachers, and for public (ie private, the british educational system is a little weird) it's the Association of Schoolmasters and Women Teachers.

5) Don't involve the media! Unless you have a real wish to suddenly have no privacy at all, keep them out of it. While there are no local TV channels like in north america, the tabloids are often willing to sensationalise child violence, the younger the better. 'Killer 10 Year Old Tried To Stab Classmate!!!!!", in the Sun, for instance. Also, immediately reaching for the nearest lawyer is probably going to do little but cost you money.

I hope this is of some help. While I sympathise with the situation, I don't have kids, and you may well feel that you have no choice but to go for the nuclear option immediately to keep your son safe. That said, if the situation can be resolved with the minimum of permanent damage to others, it would be nice.

pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#136363 - 23/01/2003 12:58 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: pca]
ninti
old hand

Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
> he spent 15 years working at a 'special needs school', which is packed full of kids of the type you are having a problem with.

That reminds me of this link, funny and kinda sick:
http://tardblog.com/
_________________________
Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB

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#136364 - 23/01/2003 14:31 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
boxer
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
Stating the obvious, but a great number of people have shown a great amount of thought and an even greater amount of concern on this thread.

Make's mine look a little bit light!

Where else, but here?
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag

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#136365 - 23/01/2003 18:59 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
Wow, isn't this place truly amazing!

I was offline for ~36hours after initially posting here and could not have imagined the wealth of advice and information awaiting my return.


My partner and I are sincerely grateful to you all for your posts and especially those that so obviously took a great deal of thought, time and effort to put together. We'd also like to extend an extra-special 'thank you' to Boxer and PCA along with the 3rd parties involved for going even further out of their way to help.


Mostly owing to the posts here, we both have a much clearer view and better understanding of the teacher/headteacher/school situation as a whole. This in turn has had quite a calming influence since we can clearly see that demanding, shouting and so on clearly is not going to get the best results.


As an update to the situation since my previous post, there have been a few more incidents at the school comprising of (in order); being hit with a book, open remarks of "Is it time to kill <myson> yet?" and preventing him from leaving the cloakroom.

When he was hit by the book (a flimsy exercise book) he grabbed it and threw it down on the floor and firmly told DP to "Stop!" and walked away. The events that followed were maybe some form of retaliation from DP, or maybe not, it's impossible to tell right now.

We have a meeting with the class teacher on Monday and hopefully the head will be attending too. Furthermore, we decided to get an overview of what's gone on to date in writing which the head and class teacher will be receiving tomorrow. I'm quite happy to post a copy of the letter in here which I'll probably do once I've had a chance to anonymize it.


In the meantime and once again, I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who's helped here

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#136366 - 23/01/2003 19:08 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
Biscuitsjam
enthusiast

Registered: 22/01/2002
Posts: 355
I wish you luck. Make sure you go into the meeting with a record of everything that happened (time/date). It gives you a much stronger position.

BTW, when I mentioned the nice guy/mean guy routine, I wasn't referring to one person being a total arse. I meant more along the lines of one person being there to let off pressure from the other asking for action. Then, if they are being unreasonable, they should already have some rapport with one of you, so a little anger from the "nice guy" should cause them to back down a little.

I really wasn't sure if I was very clear the first time around. I hope things work out for the best for both your kid and DP. He needs help of some kind, but there is always a chance that he can turn himself around. The bully I mentioned earlier that I had problems with eventually turned himself around in high school and is well-adjusted now.

-Biscuits

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#136367 - 24/01/2003 04:30 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
When he was hit by the book (a flimsy exercise book) he grabbed it and threw it down on the floor and firmly told DP to "Stop!" and walked away.

Your son is indeed very mature and handled that situation well.
_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#136368 - 27/01/2003 18:45 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
As previously mentioned, here is the letter we handed to the headteacher and classteacher last Friday:

Dear <headmaster>

As we are sure you are aware, <ourson> has unfortunately had difficulties in school recently with DP.

We are confident that both you and <classteacher> share our optimism that this matter can be resolved satisfactorily. To this end, we have briefly outlined some of the events that have taken place recently:

• Friday 17th January: In the cloakroom at home time, <ourson> was dragged by his hair down onto the floor and punched in the body repeatedly. A nearby parent saw the incident and intervened.

• Tuesday 21st January: While the children were grouping on the carpet, DP approached <ourson> and shoved him over. Then, with a pair of pointed scissors, gestured towards <ourson> in a threatening manner.

• Wednesday 22nd January: In the computer suite DP approached <ourson> holding his literacy book and struck him around the head with it.

On two separate occasions during class that day DP asked openly “Is it time to kill <ourson> yet?”.

• Thursday 23 rd January: After hanging up his coat upon arrival at school, <ourson> was prevented from leaving the cloakroom area by DP purposefully obstructing his exit.

<ourson> is now feeling increasingly threatened and at times emotional as a result of DP’s behaviour.

<classteacher> has kindly offered to speak with you on this matter and discuss it further with us on Monday afternoon. In view of the escalating situation we feel that, if possible, it would be beneficial if you could attend although we appreciate that this is short notice.

We look forward to meeting with you soon.

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#136369 - 27/01/2003 18:55 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
AndrewT
old hand

Registered: 16/02/2002
Posts: 867
Loc: Oxford, UK
Well, we met with the headmaster and classteacher this afternoon.

It went pretty well really, no unrealistic demands from either side and the whole affair was positive and upbeat.

The headteacher explained he was shocked to learn of our son's experiences mentioned in the letter. He said HE would have called a meeting with US if he'd learned of the goings-on sooner! Almost in disbelief, I asked him if our letter was the first he'd heard of ANY of these events. The teacher looked sideways at him before he replied as if to remind him of a previous discussion before, he replied "Yes".
We are reasonably sure he was talking BS but we couldn't disprove him so let it slide. FWIW, the reason we are so sure is because the events were reported on a daily basis both by my son (to the teacher) and by my partner the following morning before class. Added to that, DP's dad was asked by the class teacher to supervise him in the cloakroom before and after school - we find it hard to believe that in a small village school the headteacher would not have been informed.

The headteacher explained some of DP's problems as a special pupil and that they had various strategies for dealing with problems such this.
I don't know if I mentioned this before but literally one minute after an incident DP will have no recollection of doing anything bad to anyone. One example of this (and my son can cite many more) happened after the cloakroom/punching incident; DP was walking in front of him with his dad to the car to go home. My son was walking 20yds behind him in the same direction with his grandmother. DP happened to look around, saw my son and said "Hi <myson>" entirely as if nothing had happened! My son (I think 'rightly') believes DP has absolutely no idea why ~95% of his peers try to avoid him.

We have agreed that our son (and so has he), will participate in a technique that is sometimes successful in bullying situations where the perpetrator has no idea of the problems they cause their victim. The headmaster will sit with DP and our son together in his office and ask our son to explain how DP's actions affect him etc. The desired effect is that DP will see the angst he causes others by his actions thereby better enabling him to reconcile people's subsequent attitudes/behaviours toward him directly as a result of his own behaviour. There is a name for this technique which escapes me right now and possibly I haven't explained it too well (I need sleep )

This could go either way and I'm sure it's not going to be a pleasurable experience for my son to explain in front of DP how he made him feel. On a more positive note, if it's successful the results should be evident very quickly (which is the clincher really). The head has assured us he will be instructing all of the teachers etc. to be on the lookout over the coming days just in case there is a further incident.

If there's no big improvement over the next few days we'll be back meeting with the headmaster, watch this space!


That's the upbeat part done with, cynical me knows this is all one big game to the headteacher really, one which we as parents are obliged to play along with; The one where he would love to ignore the situation if he could get away with it and it (we) just went away. The one where he didn't confirm he would attend the meeting. The one where he wishes we wouldn't bug him, which is what the other parents seem to do.....

We heard from a friend of my son that DP had recently picked up a brick in the playground and threw it at another child (and missed). Nothing, we found out today, has been reported to the school!

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#136370 - 28/01/2003 13:28 Re: UK Primary School Disciplinary Policy Rules & Proc [Re: AndrewT]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
I hope you tell your son that this is his chance to let DP have it verbally. He should not hold back no matter how self conscious he feels because this is his last chance. If things don't work out after this, you should escalate the situation dramatically. It sounds like this kip need severe councelling.
_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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