Hey all... Just thought I'd drop a line to avail of all the brain power here.

Here's my current situation:
1 NT 4 server with 35 users
5 networked printers
DHCP on the server assigning IP addresses to the clients (some are fixed IP addresses)
No internet access through the server (we have a separate box handling that with a fixed IP internally)
ACCPAC for DOS running on the NT 4 server (this may cause a hiccup)

I have a nice new server running win2k sitting on my workbench. I would like to set it up with all of the above (tossing the old server in the parts bin) as well as an internal website hosted there and an internal newsserver (these are both standard in win2k if I am not mistaken).

Now my dilemma is this; should I try and migrate everything from the old server (if so, how?) or should I just set up this new server as a new server, recreate everything and copy the files over.

I am leaning towards plan B but I would like to get some experience with the migration option. I haven't really used Win2K server before (other then a 5 day course a year and a half ago where we blasted through 1000+ pages in a MOC course). I am not totally lost as I have been administering this network for 5 + years and have a few certs and experience to go with it, I am just a little rusty due to the fact that things have been working fine around here (for the most part) and I haven't had to keep my skills honed.

Thanks for any advice/links that you can provide!

Rene

Are you running any domains or exchange on the box that would involve active directory migration?

For something as misison-critical as a departmental server, I recommend against attempting a "migration" upgrade. I always do new servers from scratch. That's my standard procedure for all operating systems, not just NT4->NT5, I don't trust any of the migration wizards to do it right.

Besides, you should never miss an opportunity to clean an OS completely and start from scratch. Systems always run faster and more stably after a re-install of the OS because you don't have all the old unused crap such as old drivers and old software modules.

Your only trick will be if you're using domain security and that NT4 server is the domain controller. If so, you'll need to do the Domain Controller Dance (tm) as part of the migration. I've done this before, following Microsoft's instructions, and it's not that difficult, it's just time-consuming.

Are you running any domains or exchange on the box that would involve active directory migration?

Nothing really... approximately 35 users and one group (ACCOUNTING) which has 7 or 8 members in it. It's all in a flat directory structure.

The previous setup was basically created to give users a home directory and a public (shared to all) directory. On top of this is was a print server and shared ACCPAC out to the accounting people. ACCPAC itself is a nice (I can't believe I am saying that) program in that it all operates in it's own folder and doesn't tie into windows in anyway. I can simply move it to another pc if need be and it will run fine from there.

Rene

For something as misison-critical as a departmental server, I recommend against attempting a "migration" upgrade. I always do new servers from scratch. That's my standard procedure for all operating systems, not just NT4->NT5, I don't trust any of the migration wizards to do it right.

I tend to follow the same philosophy... however the thing that is biting me in the ass is the printer setup. How can I do this so that I don't have to go around and manually setup the printers on all the computers again?

Besides, you should never miss an opportunity to clean an OS completely and start from scratch. Systems always run faster and more stably after a re-install of the OS because you don't have all the old unused crap such as old drivers and old software modules.

Regardless of which way I do it, it will be a totally clean server. It is brand new (Compaq Prosignia ML330e) and I have already ran through an installation once just to try it out. I noted that I can choose between 'This is a new server for a new network' or 'This is a new server on an existing network' and something else. It almost seems as though it would be more straight forward to do the whole new network thing and setup a new network with the same Domain and somehow move all the files from the old server to the new (Copy from old server to a workstation, unplug old server, plug in new server and copy files from workstation to new server). But what about them printers... logon script maybe??

Your only trick will be if you're using domain security and that NT4 server is the domain controller. If so, you'll need to do the Domain Controller Dance (tm) as part of the migration. I've done this before, following Microsoft's instructions, and it's not that difficult, it's just time-consuming.

I assume you are referring to trust relationships here?? This is the only server on this domain which is not, nor has it ever been, attached to any other domain.

Thanks for the help thus far, it's all greatly appreciated!

Rene

I assume you are referring to trust relationships here?? This is the only server on this domain which is not, nor has it ever been, attached to any other domain.

If you have people logging on using NT security, even without trusts between domain you will have to shuffle the domain stuff if you are replacing the server. It involves creating the new server as a BDC, promoting it to a PDC, making sure it is all synced and then removing the old server. Or something like that...

Read the MS docs, three times !

NT security?? Such as workstations running 2000 Professional?

A lot of the users here are running 98... some 95, and a bunch running Win2k Professional.

Which docs and where are the docs located?

Rene

How can I do this so that I don't have to go around and manually setup the printers on all the computers again?

If you do the domain dance that I mentioned (and that Andy correctly described), you would name the new server to be the same name as the old one (in addition to a domain dance you'd do a server name dance). You would then make the printer shares exactly the same names and the users would not only not have to do anything, they wouldn't even notice anything had changed.

Obviously this is a weekend project. I did this recently with our new departmental server and it went pretty smoothly. Of course, I was going from NT351->NT4 instead of 4->5, so I'm not sure if there are any "gotchas" in 4->5.

A lot of the users here are running 98... some 95, and a bunch running Win2k Professional.

The client operating system is not the question, this counts no matter which version of Windows the clients are running.

Here's what counts, and how you answer the question:

When your users log into their computers, do they have two boxes to fill in information(username/password) or do they have three (username/password/domain). If three, then that's the whole trick, that third box.

"Domain" means the domain controller. You're replacing that domain controller and you have to migrate its security database over to the new box and promote the new box to a PDC.

When your users log into their computers, do they have two boxes to fill in information(username/password) or do they have three (username/password/domain). If three, then that's the whole trick, that third box.

Three boxes, Domain is CONNE_RIVER. I am replacing the domain controller with this new machine.

[orange"Domain" means the domain controller. You're replacing that domain controller and you have to migrate its security database over to the new box and promote the new box to a PDC.

The only thing that I am really fuzzy on now is this:
The old box is named SERVER, how can i connect the new server with name SERVER to the same DOMAIN to migrate the Security Database? Is there something I am totally missing out on here? Should I be using a temporary Win2k server named (i.e.) SERVER2 to migrate the data to first? Then remove the original SERVER and replace it with the new SERVER. Promote the new SERVER to PDC and then dump the temporary SERVER2.

Anyone wanna drop by with a 2-4 this weekend?

Rene

This is the way I did it with mine:

Format/install the new server as a BDC with the name "server_bdc" or something. Get it on the domain, make sure it's working. I seem to recall there were a lot of Microsoft Q-articles I had to read about doing things like stopping and restarting the Server Service on the boxes to make it re-grab the domain database and work properly on the network.

(At each step I had to check the event logs to be certain the boxes were properly on the domain and synching databases right.)

Then, demote "server" to a BDC. Make sure both are working right etc. Perhaps do the stop/start thing again to be sure.

Then, rename the original "server" to "server_old", do the dance to make sure they are all working etc.

Then, rename "server_bdc" to "server", do the dance, then promote it to PDC.


The above is all a little fuzzy because it was a few months ago and there was a lot more involved than that. I pored over the related MS Q-articles and had to do some digging to troubleshoot a couple of snags I ran into along the way. And also, that was a NT3->NT4 migration, I don't know how it's handled on NT5. I don't even know if you can do the BDC/PDC thing with an NT5 box, can you?

Anyone wanna drop by with a 2-4 this weekend?

You couldn't afford my consulting fees and expenses.

edit: But an expenses-paid trip to Newfoundland, would be fun...

From what I recall from the course so many moons ago there is no such thing as a PDC/BDC anymore... shite! I will dig that tidbit up first.

As for the trip to Newfoundland... that was gonna be my next offer... but you beat me to it in your edit.

Looks like I will just spend the weekend running around like a chicken with its head chopped off. Oh well, lots of preparation to do. Then again it would be a good time to start everything fresh... get myself a nice clean network running that way.

Thanks for the help... anymore suggestions please feel free to toss them my way.

Rene

From what I recall from the course so many moons ago there is no such thing as a PDC/BDC anymore... shite! I will dig that tidbit up first.

You're thinking about Active Directory I recon and how it's meant to replace PDC/BDC, it was added in Win2k Server. I'm unsure of the pro's and con's of AD but I suspect that a lot of them don't apply to a small network like yours. What I can be certain of, however, is that PDC/BDC IS still present in Win2kSvr.

As well as checking the MS online docs, get some books from your library or college if you can. There are heaps of resources about doing the things you want to do. I'd tell you some now except I've already returned the w2ksvr books and only have Novell at the moment.

I performed a similar feat in the spring of 2000 and was helped immensely by Mark Minasi's 'Mastering Windows 2000 Server'. It's one of those big tomes but it was well written and explained a good deal in a way that's understandable. HTH.

-Zeke

I know everyone here favors the Domain Dance, then a format/reload, but I have seen NT 4 migrations go smoothly over to 2000 without that hassle (On the scale of thousands of servers). The biggest problem is incompatible software or drivers. Depending on your server, there may be a utility you can run to prep it for an upgrade. Compaq for example released this primer that would strip out trouble causing components before the upgrade.

Best thing to do if you plan on going this route is have at least TWO verified backups before even touching the origional server. If you have the spare equipment, try it out. In general, quite a bit of effort is put into the upgrade tools for servers.

I know everyone here favors the Domain Dance, then a format/reload, but I have seen NT 4 migrations go smoothly over to 2000 without that hassle

Reading his description of the situation more closely, he not only wants to upgrade the server OS to NT5, but he also wants to replace the BOX with this new box, too, so I think he's stuck with the domain dance no matter what.

What I can be certain of, however, is that PDC/BDC IS still present in Win2kSvr.

Actually, 2000 does not have a PDC/BDC concept beyond NT 4 compatibility. All servers are domain controllers, and contain writable copies of the domain information.

One of the biggest differences is that you have multiple 'primary' domain controllers with fail-over capability. So if you have two co-equal PDC's each with their own (compatible) DHCP ranges then the AD rules & user logons capability are safely maintained should one of your servers fail. That way after you rebuild the failed server you can replicate your AD back to it without having to rebuild all your user rules etcetera.

There's also some neat DFS (Distributed File System) tricks you can use so that you can move your shared files around without having to re-map things on all your clinets (so long as the mapping calls \\domain\DFS-Share instead of \\machine\share).

W2k server is a huge improvement over NT4 especially wrt sensable user administration. There are a few new concepts to get your arms around (hence the book recomendation) but I think you'll like it much more, especially for those W2k clients (adding printers takes about 10 seconds). Also W2k server can hold print drivers for downlevel M$ OS's.

-Zeke
/edit: man Drakino, you're too fast for me...

get some books from your library or college if you can.

Just to give you some idea of what you are asking me to do here...

Closest Community College - 180 kms away
Closest University - 4 hours drive
Closest Coles - 4 hours drive
Closest Chapters - 5 hours drive
Closest Ford Dealership - 180 kms away

These are all highway driving distances and times.

In other words, the internet is all I really have that is easily attainable.

I'm in the middle of nowhere on the south coast of nowhere off of the east coast of Canada.

We just got analog cell service (1 tower) less then 2 years ago and you can forget about DSL and Cable internet access. I'd really like to move but the cost of living is so low... new house being built and I'll be paying $390 cdn. monthly for it and that includes all maintenance, new flooring every five years and so on... somebody makes me the right offer elsewhere though and I am gone. With my toys in tow and a building full of people who hardly know how to turn on a PC.

sorry about that little rant... it's just that it's so hard to get anything here when you need it, the internet has helped things immensely... even though I am only connecting via dial-up at speeds of 33,600bps.

Thanks for all the help again guys, it is truly appreciated!

Take a look at:

http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=7738
http://www.winnetmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=7967
http://www.windows2000faq.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=13527
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;Q153719&