Mark 3 Player?

One of the best things about this board has been its way of bringing people of all different technical backgrounds together but with a common interest.

Since there has been talk of a navigation system and reinventing the software, why not integrate the two, and add a few features in the form of a "mark 3" design. The navigation system and player would benefit from a color vga output. This also makes a remote display possible. Expandability like a PCMCIA slot would be nice too. You could follow the current hardware design or you could move to a PC104 type system with a little bit of custom power management additions. The PC104 system would then run a faster x86 processor so you would not be as limited in the embedded aspects of the empeg. The player would be essentially a PC.

I currently use a Tri-M MachZ+ and a Versalogic Panther for my PC104+ stuff. The Tri-M has everything except a vga controller built into the CPU chip. The panther is two pc104 boards but is very powerful.

I am assuming you could still use the original empeg case or make a similar one. The same display could be used or upgraded. I guess it depends.

If an ARM system is desired or some PC104 additions, I am more than happy to do the engineering and PCB layout.

It is an interesting situation but now is the best time to consider a hardware change. Otherwise the hardware will always be locked.

I'm just throwing this out for consideration so,

Feedback: Good? Bad? Suggestions?

Alex Lear

Sounds good to me! but the board is just part of the work involved. Parts and metalwork would have to be sourced though. Are there Color LCDs small enough for a din sized unit?

Sean

Here is a link to the panther board:
http://www.versalogic.com/Products/DS.asp?ProductID=51

The LCD I was thinking of is an external one with the player still having a built in VFD or equivalent. I don't think the metalwork is too bad. I have looked closely at the empeg, It appears that anyone could create a reasonable case. It is just expensive to have them manufactured in larger quantities.

Alex Lear

That is very cool. How much would something like that cost?

Sean

The panther is about $1000, but don't let the price scare you away. It does have a more powerful processor, several com ports, ethernet(100Mbit), vga, pci, LCD support, USB(master) and more RAM capability than the current empeg hardware. You can of course find cheaper PC104 products from other companies if you don't need all the features but the point is everyone could have a different manufacturer of CPU board and the same software could be used.

Alex Lear

...and here is a link to the LCD screens I was thinking about.

http://209.241.92.54:81/Single%20Board%20Computer%20Kits.htm
Prices are on par with current alpine/pioneer/sony TV resolution LCD's.

This of course would give you the ability to have in car video such as DVD or MPEG4(Divx).

Alex Lear

I've looked at the case too. Compared to the average head unit, it's a tank.

A stainless steel tank.

I don't think the guys a Empeg ever heard of planned obsolescence. Or if they did, they hold the concept in contempt. As should be.

After looking around I have found a bunch of singleboard/PC104 CPU's for less than $500.

Alex Lear

MPEG4(Divx).

Oh... divx is so horrible.. so.. so horrible.

(O|||||O)

Oh... divx is so horrible.. so.. so horrible.

Are you reffering to the attempted consumer movie players that were actually horrible?

These days, the term Divx refers to a form of MPEG4 video encoding which has the same effect to video as mp3 encoding had to audio. You can effectively shrink a DVD down to fit on a CD. Lossy compression of course, but done right it can look really good for its size (like MP3).

Alex Lear

Oh... divx is so horrible.. so.. so horrible.

Are you reffering to the attempted consumer movie players that were actually horrible?
These days, the term Divx refers to a form of MPEG4 video encoding which has the same effect to video as mp3 encoding had to audio. You can effectively shrink a DVD down to fit on a CD. Lossy compression of course, but done right it can look really good for its size (like MP3).

Well, there is a major difference between MPEG4 video encoding using DivX and the MP3 compression of audio:
DivX decoding is pretty expensive in terms of CPU and RAM usage, while MP3 decoding is rather cheap in these areas. To support displaying DivX videos, you really have to use a very powerful CPU or specialized processor.

A MarkIII design might be interesting anyhow, but we should keep being realistic about it. There are some minor improvements that would certainly be interesting and realistic: USB master is one, a second serial port (or third if you also count the serial that is used by the tuner module) is another one. VGA out might also be interesting and doable, but I would not necessarily use it for video (movie) output.

cu,
sven


proud MkII owner (12GB blue/green/smoked, was #080000113 is #090001010)

the original mp3man was a PC104 based device.. if I remember right.. the big problem with the board you linked is this.. it has a cooling fan.. if it has a CPU that get's hot enough to need a CPU fan.. it's going to generate way too much heat for an in-dash DIN module.

according to the specs.. it's going to require _minimum_ 2.55A at 5v. this is almost 3 times what the empeg takes.. and people say it get's too hot in the dashboard.. (mostly due to the VFD tho) 1A at 12v (regulated to 5v) is really the most I'd want to use for a car player.. exspecialy if you want to add internal amplifier circuts. you have only 15amps to play with for the accessory line in the car.. and a lot of that gets eaten up by other things like a cigarette lighter, power inverters, ham radio equipment.. etc.

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

if it has a CPU that get's hot enough to need a CPU fan.. it's going to generate way too much heat for an in-dash DIN module

I hear your concerns. My dash gets warm with the empeg.
So two things:
1) I use these all the time in sealed pc104 containers and the heat is not a problem. I have one (400MHz K6 panther) in front of me running the computer I am typing on and it runs very cool. Its not exactly a gighertz cpu when it comes to heat. I think the fan is a good precaution. You have to remember that the panther board has more everything than the empeg (MHz, conectivity, features) so it will require more power. You can get processors and features closer to the empeg and then no fan is required like the empeg. People could choose the cpu/features that are important to them and the same player software could run. I will put the pc104 cpu in a box in my dash and monitor cpu temp for a while and see what happends.

2) Doesn't exactly need to go in the dash, just the display. The main unit can go anywhere which many people have asked for anyway. It would be nice to have an empeg that you could plug in under your seat or in the back (trunk, boot). Out of sight of theives.

There isn't exactly a 15amp barrier on accessories you can add. There is an alternator capability barrier that varies by vehicle but even stock equipment can handle more than 15A extra load. From what I have heard in the install section, almost everybody runs a larger wire back for their amps anyway. Anybody that thinks they need a 4 or 8 gauge wire couldn't possible be concerned with 2 extra amps! The head unit I use with the empeg is a alpine with video (cva-1000) and it draws about 15amps alone when the video screen is on.

The pc104 seems like the most universal and expandable platform for mobile computing. With a few hardware accessories you could reproduce the empegs functionality as well as having (almost) the functionality of a desktop pc. Since empeg/Rio won't be creating new hardware, the next logical step would be to develop a hardware standard like this, sort of like open source for hardware. If the software is going to be recreated as open source you might as well make it work on this type of platform because it would be expandable and future compatable. It would also run on your home PC.

It just seems like a excellent opportunity if the software is going to be redeveloped anyway.

Alex Lear

yes, this probably wouldn't end up being a dashboard project.. which wouldn't be a major consumer item. (which to me is the goal fo a sequal to the mk2)

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

On some site I've found this. I don't know if it's something like this you mean.
I'm not a wiz with hardware, but I believe it's firmware is open-source.

Riocar 10gig (for now) S/N : 10101747 amber

One reason you have (or will have) heat and power conumption problems with your pc104 system is because of the pentium architecture. A 550MHZ Xeon chip will eat around 34W whereas something like a 500MHZ PowerPC only uses 6W (and will generally do around twice as much per MHz as the pentium!!), and don't forget, most of that 34W will also have to be disapated as heat! The ARM architecture is RISC based and low power consumption (which also translates to low heat output). It is also capable of more per MHz than a typical pentium - don't forget the empeg (which has a 220MHz ARM processor) is only using around 30% processor capacity while playing MP3s with the visuals on!

I'd personally much rather have an efficient low consumption box in my dashboard that something that needs fans and 4 gauge power wires. Part of the appeal of the emeg is also that it fits in a standard DIN slot - I don't want any boxes in my boot!

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

Oh, and for anyone who is interested you can find some nice processor comparisons here

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

" ... more powerful processor ..." [cough] A higher clock frequency doesn't necessarily mean a more powerful processor!! [sigh] Another poor soul brainwashed by the Intel MHz myth

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

doesn't intel make the "intel strongarm processor" that is in the empeg. don't blame it all on intel. blame the marketing people

32Gig MK2 In 2001 VW Golf TDI

Yeah sure, it is the fault of the marketing people, especially Intels. The StrongARM in the empeg is made by Intel, but the ARM design is from ARM in the UK. Actually I think you will find that ARM are based in Cambridge not far from the company formerly known as empeg.

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

well, you're partialy right.. the ARM people initialy designed the architecture, and from what I've seen, it's really nice. but intel wanted to push forward the design a bit.. so they branched the architecture to make strongarm, code written for strongarm will not execute on a 'real' ARM chip (currently no more than 57mhz, last i checked)

personaly, I wish we wern't so stuck on intel architecture, I would love to see more powerpc, and other architectures in desktop style computers.. I would really love to be able to have 4-5 machines running and not have a $200/month power bill ;)

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

how about transmeta ? i saw on www.advantech.com they have a crusoe -based "biscuit pc".
aren't those chips supposed to be really low power consuming ?

Erm, you've got that a bit mixed up. Arm don't make any processors at all - they licence the core, provide applications support and that sort of thing. They're an IP company, and a very successful one at that.

The StrongARM is one implementation - originally designed by Digital before Intel bought their processor business. Another implementation example would be the Cirrus 7212 as found inside the Rio Receiver (at 75Mhz).

I haven't a clue where you came up with 57Mhz - the clock rate is an implementation issue. There are dozens of licencees building ARM based silicon. The code is broadly compatible on all ARM implementations, with individual versions having a few unique features here and there. The instruction set is tiny - a truly orthogonal RISC architecture.

Rob

Like i understand this Panther board is single board computer. Does this mean that i can add TFT display, HDD, some IO devices and i have full featured computer? And i can run linux or windows on that? So that way i could have full featured computer in car. I don't want to replace the empeg, i am just thinking about another computer in car. So i could use it as ordinary pc or for video (sound to empeg aux-in).

Veiko
veiko@lc.ee

MK1 #317 - 20GB green

Yes Veiko, this is exactly the case. You can use a regular monitor (or TFT), HDD, whatever. Here is a link to a pretty good list of hardware devices available:
http://www.controlled.com/pc104/products.html

I actually don't want to replace my empeg either, but with the right software these other systems could be really cool. You could run video or navigation on them without any additional programming.

Alex Lear

It doesn't sound like that many people are interested. Is there anybody besides me that would like to create an in-dash car computer based on a pc104/sbc?

Alex Lear

I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade, BUT.

It seems you need to define a scope for what you want it to do and what you want it to interact with. Then yu can look at what is best suited to you. There is so much out there that you could spend the rest of the year talking and not agree on anything. Otherwise you may as well just go it alone.

best of luck, can't wait to see what you come up with.


Murray
Go-Wit-Da-Fro

Before I bought my empeg, I was planning on going the pc104 based route. I had already built a laptop based player.

The empeg is just a much more elegant solution. I know you aren't building this to replace your empeg, but it's a lot of work, and it ends up being very expensive by the time you're done.

On a slightly different note: I for one can't wait to see what this new "secret" project that the guys at empeg (yeah, I know, formerly empeg) have been working on. They appear to be very excited about it.

-Trevor

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Mk 2, Green 12GB, Tuner 080000349

As rob said, this is incorrect. The code is almost totally binary compatible. There are many ARMs apart from the StrongARM which are in the 200MHz area now (eg, ARM9 core based units).

We run the same binaries on ARMv4 (ARM7TDMI) CPUs as the strongarm; there are different optimisations you can do for each architecture, but the binaries run fine without modification.

The same is true for the Xscale (StrongARM2). It adds instructions which aren't backwards compatible, but if you're not using them the binaries will work (much the same as MMX extensions on x86). There are differences in CPU setup (caches, etc) but this is generally only at linux kernel level - user programs never get to see the differences.

Hugo

arg.. i was mis-informed by a visiting acorn user.. arg!

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

You don't want to listen to Acorn users - they're about 5 years out of date

Rob

ARM licence the core

And they are very good at it! Just read on a Dutch news site that their profit on the third quarter is 22% higher than expected.

­­______________
Edwin de Vaan

Hi Trevor,

I think I may have caught a glimpse of the 'secret' project when I visited Cambridge to get my Empeg repaired.

From the brief view I got, I think it's going to be very cool indeed.

If it weren't for the fact that I'm at risk of being made redundant at the moment, then I know what I'd be buying myself as a Christmas pressie :)

Andy.