Man o man. Decisions really suck.

I've gotta decide what "concentration" i want to choose for my major of Business Administration and i'm sorta lost. I've narrowed it down to basically Sales and Marketing, or Information Systems. My brother did IS and he seems to be doing pretty well at this point. I however, have this huge fear of getting out of college and ending up working at Radio Shack or something, with a worthless BA in my pocket. I realize that basically one needs a Masters to make the big bucks, but [censored], i can't even get over the first hurdle.

Everyone i know that has a techie job says that IS is stupid and its for all the people that couldn't make it as CS majors. Wellll [censored], thats just great to know.

As far as sales and marketing goes, i did a search on Monster.com for marketing jobs in my area and it came up with a whole S-load of Telemarketer jobs. Am i gonna end up as my own nemesis?


I know i can sell [censored] well, i've worked at the Good Guys for 3 years sellin' all sorts of big ticket stuff? Is that relevant at all? I dunno, i'm in somewhat of a stoned, depressed stupor right now, so forgive me.

Point is, i don't know what to do. I'd like a job in the computer field because i love tinkering with computers. I'm not nearly as proficient as 99.9% of the guys on this board, but i consider myself a little bit more knowledgable then you're average joe. Is this enough to warrant spending the next 4 years learing about database structures?

Being young and clueless sucks ass. Sorry if i wasted you're time but i just needed to vent and possible get some feedback.

thanks


PS
Song of the Day
Clinic
Come Into Our Room

(Note: The below assumes you're just-starting-college-age, I assume that's how old you are):

I didn't know how much I hated sales and marketing until I was in my mid-twenties. This was when I worked in retail and I was carefully trained on sales techniques and given a complete understanding of the subject.

I didn't know how much I hated management-related stuff until I was in my late twenties and early thirties, when I was given an opportunity to see how the management structure works in a large corporation, and was given detailed training on management and TQM.

There was a time when I thought I would have been great at telephone technical support. Until I had to do it for a while, and hated it. I eventually got the job taken away from me when I pissed off a customer by being hard-nosed about a particular problem (I was right, but they were still pissed at me).

I'm now in my mid-thirties, in an IT position, doing a little bit of programming here and there, and avoiding direct phone tech support as much as possible by keeping my network running smoothly. I've found that's my niche, I like it, I feel comfortable in it, and I do well at it. But I came to it in a very roundabout way, by working at different jobs and sort of being gently redirected to IT-related tasks until those tasks consumed my entire job description.

In my experience, if you're good at something, you'll tend to gravitate toward it. Lots of little gradual career moves will eventually land you in the job you're really best at. But it's not something you can simply "decide" at eighteen, or something you can glean from answering a multiple-choice personality test. It takes time and experience to find your niche.

I believe that it's impossible to choose a college curriculum accurately until after you're already too old for college. The important thing, in my opinion, is to get college over with as quickly and as painlessly as possible, and get on with your life. I'm sure there are those who will disagree. But in response, I present this poll question:

I would need an option for "Yes, I work in the field I studied, but my degree has been about as much use as a chocolate welding torch".

Rob

I meant for the question to be related to the actual subject matter of the education itself, not the piece of paper that says "Degree" at the top. If your education helped you, but the degree itself did not, then the answer is "Yes".

In my case, I went to college for computer science, but the education I received was not in the exact field I work in. I took programming classes that taught me nothing I didn't already know from hacking on the C-64 in my teens. I'm working in network administration, something that wasn't even taught when I was in college. So in my case, I answered "No", even though I studied computer-related stuff in college.

Umm, I stand by what I said. In the UK "Degree" usually refers to the whole 3 or 4 year learning process that you start when you're 18. I've worked in the field I studied for quite a few of the years that have passed since then, and in general have not found my university work to be very useful.

I rather wish I had taken a completely unrelated subject to further my personal education, as I'm sure this would not have negatively impacted on my career. Worked for Toby anyway.

Rob

Actually, i'm 21. I took a year off after high school, then went to a community college to get through with all my general education crap, which was by far, more interesting then all the God damn business classes.

Now that i'm starting to take my "upper division" courses, i have to choose a "concentration". When i said, "For the next 4 years", i meant finishing my BA in the next two years, then getting my masters in another two.

I totally understand the point you're putting across though. I've met scores of people who are in a job that has NIL to do with their major. A friend of mine just graduated from Brown with a degree in psychology -- he's working as a [censored] construction worker.

I'm just a little befuddled as to what to choose for my concentration. I mean, in the long run, its gonna have some bearing on my career, especially if i decide to get a Masters in that field.

Right, OK.

Dunno if it's the same as in the UK, but here in the US, the piece of paper itself is sometimes more important than what you studied. For instance, I could have a degree in animal husbandry, but if my experience was in computers, then as far as an employer is concerned, I meet the job requirement of "computer knowledge with a degree". Hence my desire to make a distinction.

My complaint is that the technology sector is changing so rapidly, it's hard for any college to offer a curriculum that meets current industry needs. Examples of classes I took in college were Pascal, Fortran, Cobol, and Z-80 assembler. I did compiling in CP/M and worked on a real-live mainframe with dumb terminals and a lineprinter for printing out my code. Haven't used any of that information since entering the job market. C? What's that? Ethernet? TCP/IP? Never heard of them.

I'm just a little befuddled as to what to choose for my concentration. I mean, in the long run, its gonna have some bearing on my career, especially if i decide to get a Masters in that field.

I'd say choose the one that will look most impressive on a resume, then.

It's sad, but my initial response to this was...

<homer>
Mmmmm, chocolate welding torch...
</homer>

It's just strange to hear Brits and Aussies quoting Simpsons.

Guess that's the way the Brits must feel to hear us quoting Python.

Actually, I think the worst part is realizing that we, as a country, are currently being represented to the English by Homer Simpson. Just like they probably shudder to think that our biggest impressions of the English public are John Cleese and Benny Hill.

Man, i grew up watching Benny Hill being chased by scantily clad women.

I would need an option for "Yes, I work in the field I studied, but my degree has been about as much use as a chocolate welding torch".


For all the good mines done me I might as well wipe my ass with it. I was a photo major, and jobs in that field pay a whopping average of $7.50 and hour (and they have the balls to ask for a degree in some of the ads, [censored] that) so I went back to waiting tables, and everyone I went to college with thought I was nuts until we compared W2's. I sell cars now. Toying with going back, I still think I might wait to figure out what I want to be when I grow up first.

Exactly my point.

I never had the chance to go to college and it has taken me many years in many different fields (sales being one of them, yuck) to fianally find something I love and feel I am good at. Most of what I have learned in the tech field has been from a good friend and on my own, though I did take a course on getting my A+.

If I was fresh out of high school now I would love to go for a EE major but if I tried that now I would probably be past retirement age going for a 5 year degree part time.

The best thing you could do for yourself if you are looking to rise up the corporate ladder rapidly is to concentrate in computer science and some form of business administration. Corporations are increasing using and recognizing IT departments as value centers rather than just as cost centers -- as in the past and until as recently as the early 1990s. There tends to be a rift between what techies do and want executive management and lines of businesses need. In other words, they don't speak the same language. The guys that can bridge the gap and make the two worlds meet are those that can rise the most rapidly in IT and make the most money.

Maybe this helps, maybe it doesn't.

I say the [censored] with getting a job. Do you really want some punk motherfucker telling you what to do? Start a business, invent something, try world domination- you'll be alright.

I've worked in the field I studied for quite a few of the years that have passed since then, and in general have not found my university work to be very useful.

AOL to that, brother!

I rather wish I had taken a completely unrelated subject to further my personal education, as I'm sure this would not have negatively impacted on my career.

I'm not sure I'd go that far, though. Bits of my degree were quite entertaining -- just not very useful. Although I still have a small twinge of regret for not reading Philosophy, even though it would have been shed-loads more work.

Peter

I picked a degree I knew would be a no brainer - Electronic & Electrical Engineering with a CS option - specifically because I knew I wouldn't need to work very hard as that kind of stuff was my hobby from about 5 years old.
I also picked a uni with an Eng dept with a history of heavy partying, for obvious reasons. You know you're in the right place when Eng Lecturer informs the assembled hungover baboons that Pi is silly, we'll all use 3 for procedural work and press the Pi button on the computer/calculator we use for the final results.
The course itself was useful for my hobbies (I design and build electric guitars and effects) but not relevant to my work, although I do work in the IT Security field.

So I checked "No"

England - John Cleese, USA - Homer Simpson, Australia -Kylie Minogue- interesting national icons when you start to think about it. Anybody else want to play?

Japan- Godzilla

If you think it's difficult to decide what to do at college, wait until you graduate. Then you've got to decide what to do for the rest of your life.

I did three years of college, working part-time throughout in various print jobs. Then I worked full-time for a year and got so bored with working 9-5, that I signed up for a three-year degree, just for something different to do.

I finish uni next month. I have *no idea* what I'm going to do.

Guess that's the way the Brits must feel to hear us quoting Python

I've observed that Americans seem to think there must be some kind of deeper aspect to Python which is worthy of adoration, where as in fact most non-student Brits realise it's pretty inane stuff. Umm, OK, actually I may be alone in that view.

Actually, I think the worst part is realizing that we, as a country, are currently being represented to the English by Homer Simpson

Every society has its Homers.

Rob

PS Apart from the society of No Homers of course.

"Apart from the society of No Homers of course"

DOH!!!

it's pretty inane stuff. Umm, OK, actually I may be alone in that view.

No, I'd agree with you there, Rob. The series had their moments of brilliance, but in wide-open fields of drivel. Same with Holy Grail. There was lots of dross in Meaning Of Life, too. The only Python thing I'd count as good from beginning to end is Life Of Brian; it should be compulsory on theology courses the world over. "Of course, when he says that blessed are the cheesemakers, that's obviously allegory, and in fact he's talking about all employees of the dairy industry." (But perhaps you need to have met plenty of theologians to realise how dead-on the parody is.)

Peter

Absolutely agree - Life of Brian is classic. I remember some of my friends at school (St Mary Redcliffe & Temple School - draw your own conclusions) getting in trouble with their parents for watching it!

Rob

If you think it's difficult to decide what to do at college, wait until you graduate. Then you've got to decide what to do for the rest of your life.

That brings no comfort what-so-ever

I guess ill just have to settle for a masters degree from a second rate college and hope i make it in life. In this country millions on welfare depend on me (or so i was told by a bumper sticker)

I don't know, I never thought there was something deeper to Python. It's just comedy, not the meaning of life (except for the Meaning of Life, of course).

But one thing I always that was cool was that my mom works at National Geographic. There's also a British guy who works there who went to school with the Python guys, and would always go on silly walks with them.

ps-score one for you Rob, nice ref

"I'm an elk, a Mason, a communist. I'm the president of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance for some reason..."

> That brings no comfort what-so-ever

Ah, reading my post over again I've realised that it didn't quite appear the way intended.

I suppose what I was trying to get at is that whatever decision you make now about what to study, it will have little effect on your choices when you graduate.

Choose a subject you want to do, that has a varied course content. Don't worry too much about what effect it may have on your future career. When you graduate, you'll find that your degree will help you get a job, but it won't dictate what jobs you can do.

Thats exactly what Im left with doing now, I spent 3 years in chemical engineering, and every second of it sucked, not because I cant do it, because I hated the work. now I have 1.5 years left in Mechanical Engineering and I hope it will put me somewhere I want to be, and if not, maybe I will go to law school, become a patent lawyer.

...if not, maybe I will go to law school, become a patent lawyer.

You could almost feel a cold chill and a shudder in the Force at the thought of another patent lawyer!

maybe I will go to law school, become a patent lawyer


....how to make friends and influence people...

The work I do today is so tangential to the degree that I have it's kind of sad. I have a total of maybe 1 class that's even vaguely related to what I'm doing today.

Calvin

Yes, I know, the thought ofmyself as a lawyer is not a good one, but right now its the best offer I have coming straight out of school. But Like I said I have 1.5 years left undergrad, hopefully something better will come up

I realize that basically one needs a Masters to make the big bucks,

I want you to print out this reply to your post, put it in a time capsule, and open it in 20 years. Don't even bother reading it now, because you will not believe me and no amount of persuasion on my part will convince you that I am right.

OK, here it is: Making the big bucks, as you put it, should be near the bottom of your priority list. The most important thing, really the only thing that matters is, do you enjoy your work?

By my standards, I am incredibly successful even though I don't earn much money, because I enjoy my job so much. I wouldn't trade my job for work that paid five times the salary if it was not something I enjoyed.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a career is about money. A career is about what you do with your life and how you live it. Money is only a way of keeping score -- and after all, who are you competing against that keeping score is necessary?

The title on the top of your diploma means very little in the general job market. Mostly, employers want to know that you are/were smart enough and committed enough to see your way through a college education. That shows you have a good work ethic and will be an asset to your potential employer.

20 Years from now when you open your time capsule and read this, you will realize the wisdom of what I am saying. I imagine that most people under the age of 25 will disagree with me; and that most people over the age of 40 will agree. (Bonzi, Laura, Schofiel, Henno -- what say you? Yz -- don't even think about it!)

tanstaafl.

I agree with every word you said. You can't call yourself successful unless you look forward to going to work every morning. There's nothing worse than not liking the work you do, no matter how much you're being paid.

I agree. I have had jobs that I loathed and jobs that I have loved and jobs I liked. When you put it in prespective and think about working for the next 30-40 years of your life, why would someone want a job that they hated just because the money is very good. It makes a difference when you wake up in the morning and look forward to going off to work instead of dreading it. In the long run you will have less stress and probably a longer life. Do what you enjoy, life is too short as it is, don't spend it hating your job.

I don't make the "big bucks" but it is enough to live on, for me that is enough. Course to me being rich and keeping up with the neighbors has never been important to me.

Well said taanst. I agree completely.

20 Years from now when you open your time capsule and read this, you will realize the wisdom of what I am saying. I imagine that most people under the age of 25 will disagree with me; and that most people over the age of 40 will agree.

Well, I'm only 30 and I'm sure I've agreed with that sentiment for a lot more than five years ;-)

The only thing I'd say is, while Making the big bucks, as you put it, should be near the bottom of your priority list, it doesn't make me shudder as much as the "climbing the corporate ladder" that someone upthread quoted as the aim of a well-spent life.

Peter

Greetings!

Wise answer!!! Excellent!

In reply to:

---

it doesn't make me shudder as much as the "climbing the corporate ladder" that someone upthread quoted as the aim of a well-spent life

---

No kidding. Screw the ladder. I'll find an elevator.

Agreed. I've always thought that when you start looking for excuses to stay in bed or pull a sicky, then it's time to move jobs. On two occasions, I've even followed my own advice.

Fortunately, working for empeg rocks .

I agree with you as well. As simple as your advice is, there is always external pressures that keep you from doing the work you enjoy. There are social and cultural pressures that is like fighting a riptide -- the want of material posessions, the pressure of debt, the pressure of social status, parental (mis)guidance, and more. Sometimes having a good work ethic works against you, because when you really start to enjoy the work, it begins to feel like play, and you resent yourself for being a slacker in your subconscious.

If only things were as simple to allow everyone to do what pleased them.

Calvin

Yeah, here you stay in bed and don't bother to think up an excuse.

Just wait til I get my truant detecting robot online *evil laugh*

Rob

I think i've got to agree with that. I did college for a year and a half, and decided to put things on hold until I could do it on my own dime. I didn't enjoy the guilt that came with depending on my parents. So i fixed it. I originally was going to be CS, but I eventually came to the conclusion that I didn't want to be a coding slave pushing deadlines. My anxiety would go through the roof and I would end up killing myself or others. A few friends of mine at the time were MIS students, and that seemed like a great option. A business degree with computer backing? cool, i'll be a double threat. how many IT managers do you know with a -strong- geek background? I would think management more in touch with the actual technology would be one step ahead of the group.

Fast forward 2 years, and the 2 MIS girls I was friends with had graduated. Neither had any experience (formal, informal) with PCs or computers in general beforehand. I helped both of them with their VB classes (learning C and then VB afterwards is detremental to your health! the language is horrid.).. I got to watch them learn RDBMS. I helped them a lot, but it wasn't so bad. One of them was my girlfriend at one time, so I felt obligated to help her since I was the local alpha geek.. anyways. neither of them has found a job in the IT field yet! one of them is cocktail waitress. the other is a complete daddy's girl, so she has no job. i think the point i'm trying to make is that it's tough for these 2 cute young girls to get jobs in the field due to the fact that they didn't have any experience aside from textbooks. 100% of what i've learned dealing with computers is self taught.

I don't know what the solution would be for schools. Obviously they need better curriculum, maybe more hands on training. hell, force the each student into a room with a damn pc and a stack of oreilly books every night for a few years. that's what I did

So.. I eventually will return to college. And I still think I'm going to head for MIS. I want to be that double threat, plus a general business degree would allow me to jump between management and tech jobs. The two things I've been wanting to do my entire life.

Right now I've got a great job that pays me very well. It's quite possible I could never return to college and be able to live quite comfortably for the rest of my life. I have skills and experience on paper that have already gotten me into jobs where a 4 year degree was a base requirement. But I know if I didn't go for that retarded little piece of paper that I would one day find myself at the peak of my career and wonder why my salary comes up with 4 zeros at the end.

but then again, i'll never become a millionaire working for someone else.

that's where my army of robots comes in.

MIS == blech!!!

Current market you really need experience or an insane GPA to get a decent job.

One of my 494 professors made a comment that has stuck with me over the past year. "If you're not going to do anything cool, (aka research or TRULY fresh developement) if you're just going be a code monkey, there's no reason to get a BS or BSE in comp. sci. Just go to a vocational school and learn the basics. It's all you'll ever need for grunt work."

I got a CS because I liked the curriculum. I'm currently CTO of a school in Arizona. I code almost not at all, but the DIFFICULTY I went through getting the BS has toughened me for all the stone headed liberal arts majors out there.

About your friends. Tell them to get jobs @ Computer temp agencies. It's a good way to get your foot in the door.