Sorry if someone asked this already, but when i was looking on the new site, i noticed that the buttons on the new MarkII have lights behind them... Is this true?

-CHiP

Right, the buttons have the possibility to be backlit, but they are not transparent so the are not backlit at the moment.

TeeMcBee

To clarify even further...

The buttons that ship with the Empeg do not have lights inside them, although there is a space inside the buttons for lights if you wanted to do some really precision soldering. Or purchase replacement buttons that already had the lights in them. The photo of the backlit buttons at the website was one of the developer's (or was it Rob's?) units where they did the lit-button hack for fun.

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Tony Fabris

Lit Button hack for fun? What does that mean? I mean, are there lights behind the buttons or not? and if there is, are you saying that they don't go on because of software?

-CHiP

They are saying they are not there, but they could be installed into the panel. The buttons on the pucture where placed there by themselves (or who evers pannel that actualy was).

Proud owner of #161

Lit Button hack for fun? What does that mean?

It means that one of the developers wondered what backlit buttons might look like on an Empeg Car and hacked (hardware hacked, i.e., soldering-iron-and-needlenose-pliers hacked) some LEDs onto the unit.

I mean, are there lights behind the buttons or not?

No, there are no lights behind the buttons. The buttons themselves are the kind that you could insert lights into them if you wanted to, but you'd have to do some delicate soldering work and know exactly what you were doing. And you'd have to fashion or obtain translucent button caps, too.

and if there is, are you saying that they don't go on because of software?

I think the option to control them via software could actually be implemented, but I don't know if you could do it independently of the display or not. They would probably just turn on and off with the display.

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Tony Fabris

I'm really keen on the backlit buttons - any knows if there are plans to provide transparent buttons ? Doing them themself probably doesn't give the best result back...

And I wonder why that hesn't been implemented into production - I think that would be a very nice feature.

J.

Ops, forgot to ask one thing - anyone knows if there are circuits on the display-panel PCB where the LED's could be soldered onto ? Cheers, J.

Maybe the guys@empeg could provide transparent & backlit buttons in a faceplate-upgrade a little later (when they have time)

TeeMcBee

We've already stated why we're not using backlit buttons on the production model, but here it is again:

1. We can't get enough white LED's, which would be needed if the button caps were to match the main display colour.

2. The button caps were not designed with backlighting in mind, so they won't diffuse the light well.

3. Having backlit buttons but not a backlit rotary control would look a bit odd.

4. The new buttons have a good contrast (both in colour and feel) with the rest of the player, and it's not hard to locate the one you want to use in the dark.

Just for fun, though, we're going to try to persuade the plastics people to run one complete set of parts in transparant plastic. I wonder how much the world's only "i-empeg" will be worth in years to come :-)

Rob

Yes, there are circuits. You need to fit a 1206 sized SMD 4-resistor pack and 4x 3mm LEDs, and write some software to send the correct ioctl to the display driver to turn the lights on (you can turn them on/off/dim them). They all turn on/off together, and can run wether or not the display is on.

As rob said, you also need transparent caps.

Basically, it's not a user-fit job. The PCB has the tracking on it, the PICs have the code in them, but the necessary parts are not fitted.

Hugo

You could do the whole case in plastic, and add the airport cable around the inside (like an iBook).

You'd definitely want different colour lights for each button though!

Awesome!

Paul

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254

The tracks have been designed into the boards on the Mk2. It is not a hack; the problem was in obtaining 3.5 mm White LEDs, as only 5mm ones were available at the time of design. You could fit LEDs yourself without effort.

When the guys looked at button illumination, it looked a bit tacky and could not really decide. They did have transparent buttons cast up to try it, but they were only for test.

Note that the tracking is not present in the Mk1 display boards, so you would have to hack this.

Me, I'm just waiting till the guarantee expires before going in with the soldering iron and 3.5 blue LEDs. Now where's my hobby casting kit...

Looks like its time to order some parts from digikey. And try my hand at plastic casting. Although I'll have to think about the warranty. Is there any way I can only void the warranty on the display board?

-Waiting to replace the hole in my truck with a Mark2

An alternative which I think I will try is to get a laser to drill a 0.6mm hole through the centre of the current buttons. You can then feed a standard multimode glass fibre through the hole for efficient light conduction.

This gives a really intense light in the centre of the button, and it looks really cool - I have seen this on a front panel for a telephone exchange, and behind a smoke glass panel it looks great.

I'll just be happy when I get mine and can listen to music with it. :)

"I drank what?" - Socrates

I think I may try that out. It just happens that my graduate work is in lasers and I have access to most any type.

It will be at least a month anyway because digikey is backorded on the white leds until about July 7th.

-Waiting to replace the hole in my truck with a Mark2

Thanks for the answers. I might try as well to get mine backlit. What I would like to use for that is a very little pice of fiber from a TOSLINK optical wire, drill a hole and use that to get the 'light-dot' in.

Another question I got, blue and white LED's require roughly 3.6V, other colors maybe 1.8V. Is this regulated via the resistor package Hugo was referring before ?

Wow..these white suckers are expensive!

Thanks! J.

Agreed, i would be willing to pay a few $$ to have the buttons light up. ( if done right).


-CHiP

Most likely the resistors are the current limiter for the leds. I'm not sure what voltage is supplied, but most likely 5v. So depending on what the voltage drop across the diode is and how much current you want flowing through them you can find the resistor size from Ohm's law.

Hugo, what are you driving the leds with to be able to dim them? Are you using pulse width modulation or an analog output?


-Waiting to replace the hole in my truck with a Mark2

Me, I'm just waiting till the guarantee expires before going in with the soldering iron and 3.5 blue LEDs. Now where's my hobby casting kit...

Rob, did you ever get around to doing this?

Last night in the car, my wife tried to skip a Nine Inch Nails track and couldn't find the button.

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Tony Fabris

Rob..... in response to "Just for fun, though, we're going to try to persuade the plastics people to run one complete set of parts in transparant plastic. I wonder how much the world's only "i-empeg" will be worth in years to come :-)"

I am very comfortable with performing my own addition of LEDs.
Please Sir..... How does one get on this list for a set of these magical transparent sets of buttons?????
Be happy to pay for them. :)

Consider doing the volume knob as well? ... it would be fairly simple to affix backround lighting for it.


12Gb MKII 080000516 Blue

There's only only one set, and Toby has them :-)

They don't look too good anyway - the plastic form wasn't designed with backlighting in mind.

Rob

How does one get on this list for a set of these magical transparent sets of buttons?

Rob S. mentioned trying it with a hobbyist casting set. I'm curious if anyone has tried this.


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Tony Fabris

Wouldn't translucent be better than transparent?
A translucent set of buttons would diffuse the light, would it not?
Say, for example, a 'murky white' color would allow for any color of LED.

Wouldn't translucent be better than transparent? A translucent set of buttons would diffuse the light, would it not?

I think that everyone here assumed that they meant translucent when they said transparent. I don't think anyone would want completely transparent buttons.

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Tony Fabris

You could do the opposite and light the area around the button and not need translucent buttons it would be an outline of the buttons. I think some equipment manufacturers have done this as a retrofit instead of a button change and it would only take one per left hand button and one for volume knob. The lighted buttons would look cooler.
I really like the fiber optic solution.

#695 Mk2 BLUE 12Gig

Ask and I may tell you

jwickis: thats a good idea...leave the buttons alone, and install something to shine out from behind them, to outline 'em.

That indiglo stuff used in night-lights and Timex watches (etc.) -- I wonder what the properties of that stuff is. I wonder if you can cut it into interesting shapes (say, an outline of the empeg buttons) and still power it...

You could buy two of those inexpensive night-lights that use the material and experiment...in fact, Costco has those on sale, so you could afford to mangle quite a few.

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MK2 #141, green, 12GB

That indiglo stuff used in night-lights and Timex watches (etc.) -- I wonder what the properties of that stuff is. I wonder if you can cut it into interesting shapes (say, an outline of the empeg buttons) and still power it...

They sell that stuff in the Edmund Scientific catalog for just that sort of purpose. You can cut it into shapes, with some limitations. Although I don't see how you could light effectively around the edges of the buttons, there's no gap between the buttons and the plastic bezel.

I'm starting to like the fiber optic idea...

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Tony Fabris

Sorry if this sounds daft but what about glo-in-the-dark plastic buttons? I don't know whether the grey pigment in the buttons would prevent them from glowing though.

Just a thought.

beaker
12 gig blue

Grr. Yah, you're right. The buttons are pretty tightly fit in the faceplate...if they had as much gap as the volume knob had, then maybe...

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MK2 #141, green, 12GB

Not only are the buttons a close fit, they are also tapered - outlining them almost certainly isn't an option.

Rob

It may be possible to inject the buttons using that material, however most photoluminescent materials are short lived - the ones that aren't are a little hazardous.

Rob

mmmm... good points. I knew there must have been reasons why it hadn't been suggested before .

beaker
12 gig blue

I found that I couldn't order the solid buttons from Farnell as they have just started slapping a minimum order quantity on; so I was going to get a set cast. At the point where I tried this I found a chap locally with a laser he uses to cut steel plates; he can punch a 0.5mm hole through the buttons for me with no effort, so I think I will go for this route.

I have got a supplier of blue LEDs locally, so I'll be buying up a batch soon.

As for wiring in the tracking and mounting the LEDs - no, not yet. This is something I'll be starting in the next month or two so I'll let you know.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I hear Tritium makes a great accelerator for nuclear bombs. It's also nifty for gun sites and watch faces.

It'd probably be a little more expensive than a solid Platinum Empeg though. And the amount that you'd be asking for would probably raise enough eyebrows at the US Department of Defense.

g

--
Rio Car (10MB) Blue Face (Looking for Tuner!)
'01 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro

I hear Tritium makes a great accelerator for nuclear bombs. It's also nifty for gun sites and watch faces.

It'd probably be a little more expensive than a solid Platinum Empeg though. And the amount that you'd be asking for would probably raise enough eyebrows at the US Department of Defense.

Actually, any alpha emiter will work with, IIRC, zinc sulphide screen (that's classical solution, I guess better ones exist). However, I would somehow be reluctant to put something that most positively must not find its way into my digestive or respiratory tract even at trace levels into something I regularly touch . Imagine headaches FDA would give guys@empeg with that, considering that remote required testing and clearance by them becaise of IR radiation .

OTOH, my Samsung A/C remote does have off/on button that glows in the dark, and, as far as I can see, the glow does not diminish over the period of several hours, so it would seem the effect used is not slow visible-spectrum fluorescence. I will make sure not to open the button, just in case...

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green