So, Kim was nice enough to send me a copy of his software along with a hunk of the tiger data to try it out. He said I could post some of my comments here since I figure several of you will be interested. So...

I am VERY impressed. He has all the basic features that you would expect in a nav system working. Route calculations, voice prompts, moving maps, direction info, speed info, etc. It can run along with the player software (using a button to toggle between the two menu systems) or all by itself. When it is running with the player it hushes the music when it speaks a voice prompt so that you can hear its driving directions. It even says good evening/good morning to you when you start it up! It is obvious that he has put a lot of work into it and I really hope that he makes it available to everyone once reasonable map data can be found.

As far as the Tiger data goes, I think it is going to be usable. Kim has added the ability to specify an offset to his software to adjust for inaccuracy of the data. At the moment it does loose the road occasionally, but I have not had time to try to adjust the offset properly. Once I calibrate that offset and have a chance to drive around with it for a day or two I will post another message about how it goes. I also think it should be possible to auto-calibrate this offset after the user initially adjusts it. I have sent Kim some ideas on how I though that might work, but obviously he knows more about this than I do.

Anyway, I always thought a nav system would be a killer app for the empeg. Commercial automotive nav systems cost as much or more than most of us spent on our first (pre-discount) empeg. The ability to add this functionality to the empeg with software further validates (for me at least) the purchase of an in car computer rather than one of those cheesy mp3 CD playing devices.

-Mike

Awesome! I can't wait until the missing links are pieced together! Is the map data the only thing keeping it from a wide release right now?

Is the moving map display on the empeg screen?

I thought it was on an outboard device.

Kim started with a Palm V as an output device, then an iPaq,before just moving back to the empeg alone. I thought it was discussed here, but it could have been on the dev mailing list, or in a private e-mail.

(edit, no clue why I said private memory. Don't post and support clients at the same time

Is the map data the only thing keeping it from a wide release right now?

Well, I don't know what Kim wants to do still before releasing it and I don't want to speak for him.

My take on it is that it would be useful to people in its current state if the map data is accurate enough, but that is just my opinion.

-Mike

Cool!

So what other hardware is required other than the empeg? What is its cost and its form factor? Would one need to hand-construct any sort of complex interface between the GPS module and the player, or is it a straight serial connection?

The reason I'm saying this, is that if such a thing were available for the empeg, I would seriously consider purchasing it and paying good money for it. This includes purchasing the necessary GPS interface hardware as well as paying Kim for a license of the software.

Kim started with a Palm V as an output device, then an iPaq,before just moving back to the empeg alone.

Right, as it stands now he has two main modes "GPS" and "Player and GPS" the map is currently only available in the GPS mode so it is not viewable while listening to music. I would like to see it added as a view to the other mode as well.

-Mike

So what other hardware is required other than the empeg? What is its cost and its form factor? Would one need to hand-construct any sort of complex interface between the GPS module and the player, or is it a straight serial connection?

Here is what I am using and their approx prices...

Garmin eTrex GPS ($100)
eTrex serial/power cable ($25)
Null Modem adapter and gender changer to plug it into empeg ($7)

Nothing else is required. Nothing needs to be fabricated. Now it would be nice to patch the power cable into the cars electrical system (rather than using the cig lighter) and to rig the GPS to automatically come one with the empeg. These would both require a bit of custom wiring. The GPS I am using is a little bigger than a pack of cigarretes. You could get a cheaper GPS unit meant specifically for this type of application without a display, etc. I think someone posted a link to one someplace on this site a while back.

-Mike

Wow, that's simpler and cheaper than I thought it would be. You've certainly got my attention. If we do a meet at Woodside this year, you must definitely bring that for us all to see.

Hmm.. would the rand mcnally gps work? It uses NMEA. I have no idea how good this gps is.

-Greg

would the rand mcnally gps work? It uses NMEA.

As I understand it any GPS that can output NMEA should work. NMEA is available on most GPSs. There are a lot of NMEA fields so some GPSs will not output all of them. For example there is an NMEA field for temperature which I guess some GPSs can report. It looks like Kim has support for reporting temperature through his software (I saw a menu item for it at least), but my GPS does not report this data.

-Mike

You mean like outside ambient temperature?

That would be cool to have on the empeg. One thing that my old GTI had that I really loved was the outside temperature indicator. My new Honda doesn't have it and I really miss it.

You mean like outside ambient temperature?

Well I have never used a GPS with this feature, but I don't see why you couldn't locate either the entire GPS or it's temp sensor someplace outside the cabin of the car in order to get the outside temp. Of course you could also do this without a GPS or Kim's software with a lot of off-the-shelf temperature sensors I am sure.

-Mike

Heh, I wonder if I could desolder the player's internal case temperature sensor and mount it somewhere outside the cabin with long wires.

Heh, I wonder if I could desolder the player's internal case temperature sensor and mount it somewhere outside the cabin with long wires.

Nah, I think the ideal solution would be to mount the whole empeg outside the car. That way the case materials would shield the sensor from the wind. You could then do some sort of remote display within the car :-)

-Mike

I am new to this board and new to the Empeg but I want to help! I was involved with GPS from 1986 through 1996 and have a Trimble receiver that does output NMEA. My own immediate needs would be served by an alternate display on the Empeg (a "visual" if possible) for position, velocity and time data from the GPS. Map displays and route guidance are certainly desireable as well. It seems that a lot of progress has already been made but hopefully I could add something to the effort. I have a lot of experience in testing and trouble shooting the navigation solution and data and I would guess that if the data plot discrepencies you show are due either to a datum missmatch or an altitude error in the 3D solution that has propagated to the output coordinates. A geoidal error (local altitude deviations from the mathamatically calculated ellipsoid that represents the earth's surface) could also contribute. The map data is unlikely to be off as much as you show even though the stated error potentially is that great. My empeg is almost in the car and my GPs is running. Unfortunately I do not have a laptop but I am eager to contribute. Lynn Weber ellweber@yahoo.com

LOL... might as well just go to radioshack and get one made for what you want for $10. My grandfather has one in his jeep. I tells the outside and inside temperature... im pretty sure he get it from radio shack.
Now if only kim would only let us download a sneak peek ; )

-Greg

Agreed... I've been anxiously reading every one of Kim's posts since i first saw the little blurb about his project on the OLD empeg site. I am more than willing to pay Kim a decent chunk of change to get GPS capability, especially with the hardware being so cheap. Nice work guys. Keep us updated.

Heh, I wonder if I could desolder the player's internal case temperature sensor and mount it somewhere outside the cabin with long wires.

Or you could do like I do... get a free thermometer from your friendly heating oil company and duct-tape it to your antenna.

Of course, knowing you guys, you'd then want to build a light-sensing circuit and a miniature spotlight to illuminate it when you were driving at night.

tanstaafl.

I am new to this board and new to the Empeg but I want to help!

Welcome. I am not really involved with Kim's project aside from being a willing guinea pig. Hopefully Kim will release his software to the general public at some point, but he has not promised to do that yet. There are some other people on this board that have expressed interest in creating something similar if Kim's project does not happen. I am sure they would appreciate your help if it comes to that.

I have a lot of experience in testing and trouble shooting the navigation solution and data and I would guess that if the data plot discrepencies you show are due either to a datum missmatch or an altitude error in the 3D solution that has propagated to the output coordinates.

If you have not read it already check out this thread for discussion of the tiger data and if it is accurate enough for proper navigation. The datum I am using matches the datum Kim told me the map data uses. Like I said above my gut feeling is that the data will be accurate enough once I get the software calibrated properly. The interface to do that calibration is kind of weak at the moment so it going to take some trial and error for me to get it setup. Out of curiosity are you familiar with the tiger data?

-Mike

This definitely is great. I'm just sad I haven't gotten my hands on a GPS receiver (still doing research on all this stuff, no real time to use it yet).

How were you able to get the one-ways out of the Tiger data? The best I could see was a guarantee that a road was a two way, but nothing to determine if it was a one way -- the difference between divided, undivided, separated, and unseparated from the Tiger fields (basically whether each direction has a distinct edge in the data or not)

-sml

I was woundering if Kim has a feature that will just tell you what street your on... this would be great to get a lot of use out of gps since i know i as well as many people dont always need to put in directions all the time.. i always find myself trying to remember/find out what street im on when im looking for a house (Especially at night).

-Greg

How were you able to get the one-ways out of the Tiger data?

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I don't think Kim has been able to. The data that he gave me assumes all roads are two way as I understand it. This may be a real problem with the Tiger stuff.

-Mike

Can you *please* tease us with a screen grab from the Empeg? Pretty please???

I was woundering if Kim has a feature that will just tell you what street your on

Yep. It tells you what road you are on, speed you are traveling, etc. even if you do not have a route plotted.

-Mike

Can you *please* tease us with a screen grab from the Empeg? Pretty please???

Let me see what Kim has to say about that. If he says it is OK I will post some screens.

-Mike

OMG... i neeeeeeeed this... hehe. Im drooling. Kim I have $$$... hehe actually i really don't, but i would love too try out your gps software. ; )

-Greg

Can you *please* tease us with a screen grab from the Empeg? Pretty please???

OK, here are the teasers. Sorry if there are a bit fuzzy. I am not aware of any way to get screen grabs when the player is not running so you get blurry photos instead...

One: this is a shot of the picker screen that comes up when you first turn it on so you can select which mode you want. "Player and GPS" is the normal mode. "GPS" is where Kim has hidden various debug screens and the map screen. You can also select just "Player" if you don't need the nav software.

Two: once it is running you get a screen like this with the current street overlayed on top of the empeg display which is vertically compressed to make everything fit. IIRC the street info toggles with your current speed.

Three: pressing the nob button gets you into the GPS system which shows you your heading. The graph in the back plots your speed over time.

Four: pressing the up/down buttons takes you through the various options allowing you to plot routes, edit the configuration (enable/disable audio hints, etc), etc.

Five: searching for a route is done in a similar manner to searching for a song on the empeg or an address on many cellphones. You spin the nob to select a group of letters ('abc','def', etc) and it does a fuzzy search narrowing your options as it goes. After you determine the street you enter the actual address. Searching seems to be reasonably quick although I have not done if for a route of more than a few miles. The software also remembers previous routes so you can access them again without going through this step.

Six: once you have a route plotted the main screen is updated with a direction/distance indicator. I just noticed this feature, I am assuming it is telling you what distance to head and how far you have to go.

Seven: a more advanced view of the main screen shows current speed, distance to destination, approximate arrival time, destination, distance to your next turn, and the direction you will be turning in.

That is it for the main screens. Keep in mind that there are also voice prompts to reinforce what the screens are showing you (1km to destination, turn left, calculating route, etc). The player continues to play music as you go through these screens, plot routes, etc. The music is hushed when the nav system is doing voice feedback.

Next comes the debug type screens that come up if you choose not to boot into the player combo mode. You get the same screens from above for selecting routes and otherwise configuring things plus a few extras...

One: here you have speed, bearing, longatude, latitude, and some other stuff that I am not familiar with.

Two: long and lat again along with x and y coordinates (are these x and y on the map?) temperature and what I assume is number of sattelites in "view".

Three: another debug screen, this one includes the name of the street you are currently on.

Four: and finally your basic moving map. This is not the most useful thing in the world on this small of a display, but it is cool. I have suggested to Kim that some visual hints on this map would help a lot such as an arrow pointing in the direction of your next turn next to the intersection where you need to turn.

That is basically it. There are a few other configuration screens that I did not bother with pics of. In simple terms, it is cool, it works, it makes the world a better place :-)

-Mike

So what other hardware is required other than the empeg? What is its cost and its form factor? Would one need to hand-construct any sort of complex interface between the GPS module and the player, or is it a straight serial connection?

As mentioned, the GPS receiver is the only extra hardware you need. It should plug into empeg's serial port and also should output the so-called NMEA sentences, which are pretty much standard for GPS receivers. Also, it's a bonus if it outputs the temperature readings, and that it outputs new data every second (as opposed to every other second).

I use a Garmin GPS35PC, which is a OEM receiver, meaning it does not have a display. It's just a small black box installed into my car's roof. It gets 12V power from the car's battery.

Kim

You mean like outside ambient temperature?

If the GPS receiver outputs the temperature reading, the software will give a audio cue telling whether it's getting warmer or colder along with the actual temperature.

The only minor issue with the temperature at the moment is that as the sensor is located inside the GPS module, the temperature usually grows couple of degrees (celcius) after start-up. But that can be fixed with a piece of code which automatically corrects the temperature for the first 5-10 minutes after power on.

Kim