i've had my riocar with 2.0b3 installed for 2 weeks, and filled up most of the 10 GB drive. I also have been using a 20 GB PJB for 2 years and my feeling at this point is, the PJB is easier to use. here are a few comments:

i don't use the remote because after the first time i tried to use it i found it almost impossible to tell if the button-press had registered or not (even with beeps), and it was too dangerous to watch the menu while i am driving, so i have been limited to functions i know from memory.

many of the cool features (search, skip visuals, info) aren't available without the remote unless you press a lot of buttons. there should be more parity between remote UI and 4-button UI

It takes me an average of 8 clicks to get to a certain song on the pjb, but it takes more than 20 clicks (scroll through genre, scroll through artist, scroll through album, scroll through songs) to get to most songs on the car player, because the PJB has a flatter structure perhaps. it seems really difficult to me to skip from playlist to playlist, esp. while driving. I would LOVE to see the PJB folder UI on the car unit.

i still don't know what bookmarks are used for. i have looked around and not found any common use for them documented, and so they remain unused

i also don't understand insert/append and so i haven't used them at all. they also aren't documented in the booklet

in general, it's hard to move around in the music library. the past 4 days i have just left it on one playlist because i got tired of hitting so many buttons to find something else.

playlists seem to be the primary interface to all the music, but there is no guideline that i can fidn to suggest best practices for playlist heirarchy and organization. as a result, i'm not really sure i have mine organized in the best possibel way, and actually i question my organization when i struggle to find/play music but everyone else here never mentions that problem.

as i mentioned, i have a hacked PJB with 20 GB (bought it with 6) and i also have a hacked replaytv (160 GB) and i love both these items and the empeg/riocar. even with the trouble i have using it, i prefer it to any other head unit. But of the 3, the empeg, while boasting the most active user community by far, has the hardest-to-use interface and the least documentation.

i know you guys are all very smart, so maybe i'm just a dumb "end user" but i would love to see some of these issues addressed

thanks :)
joe

I don't use the remote much either because I tend to just listen to entire albums at a time and I have a play list for each album so I just need to select that playlist.

if you want a flatter play list structure why not just make one you can organize the songs and play lists any way you want.

the features you are asking about are not documented because they have only just become avaliable in the beta version of the 2.0 software. I am sure there will be some kind of manual made when the final version of 2.0 comes out. the book with the player is for an older software version.

insert/ append modes are selected using the select mode button on the remote when searching and can be selected by pressing in and holding the knob while browsing the playlists. insert just inserts the selected song next in the play list you are currently playing append places the selected song at the end.

bookmarks are used to save the current position and playlist of the playlist you are currently playing. so for instance if you are playing all the songs on the player in random order then you decide you want to play a particular list you can save the one you were playing and go back to it later.

keep posting on here it you have questions or problems someone will probably be able to resolve them.

(scroll through genre, scroll through artist, scroll through album, scroll through songs) to get to most songs on the car player

I'm wondering how the PJB is different in selecting playlists? What is it that makes the PJB faster at this selection? How is it organized?

Now, as far as improving the speed of selecting songs on the empeg, try this:

- Don't have a Genres tree at all. Put your artists at the root. That will save a step. Or, if you occasionally like to select an entire genre, you can do both (have a genres tree parallel to the artists). Remember that if you copy a playlist within emplode, you're only copying its link, you're not wasting disk space.

- You can spin the knob to scroll through menus, you don't have to press buttons. That might make it faster for you.

- I know you said you don't use the remote, but you can jump to a letter in the playlists menu by pressing the corresponding key on the remote.

i also don't understand insert/append and so i haven't used them at all. they also aren't documented in the booklet

They are in the FAQ at Riocar.org, though. Perhaps you ought to give that a once-over?

I agree that bookmarks are not documented, I didn't realize they needed documentation. They're bookmarks. You set it, you retrieve it. Just like... uh... like...

Okay, I'll put it in the faq.

and actually i question my organization when i struggle to find/play music but everyone else here never mentions that problem.

I think that's probably because everyone just shuffles the whole player (down-down-down) and doesn't spend a lot of time on selecting specific songs.

Remember that the playlist heirarchy is totally free-form. If you want something with less branches to the tree, then simply make the playlists however you want them. What are they like on the PJB?

If you don't use the remote because it is dangerous to watch the menu whilst driving, then why are you bothered about changing the visual/info mode without a remote whilst driving?

Your post appears to contradict itself.

I have to agree with Joe.

After sending my unit back to get the IR checked out and a new remote. I have found the remote a bit of a bother, and I would rather see some of the functions implemented on the remote put into the UI. I also have to agree with Joe's point about not knowing if the button was pressed. If I push one of the 4 nav buttons I know it worked with the remote I'm not always sure.

Also on Tony's point about the rotary knob. I have always felt that this was very poorly implemented. It's too short to grab hold of and it binds on the facia too frequently, requiring a facia adjustment every so often.

As far as the organization is concerned, I don't have a lot of time on my hands to play with the playlists and try new techniques. I have longed for a "Best practices" way of organizing the music I'm sure this kind of implementation would require more attention to ID3 tags, but it would be useful.

I too generally just hit down down down to shuffle the whole player, and since the implementation of the most/least recently played shuffle life is better. I have yet to try bookmarks, but I'm sure I will love those as well.

John

Well, in response to remotes being dangerous, maybe you should consider a steering wheel remote. The Sony stalk remote plugs right into your Empeg, so no worrying about whether it registered or not. And the Pioneer CD-SR77 steering wheel remote (which I use) works great as well, though it uses IR and is somewhat subject to extremely bright light hitting the remote sensor. I never really have to look down at the player unless I'm doing something really complicated like a search... To do my root playlists is easy because I know how many button presses each one is.

I don't know what a PJB is and I don't know how it's working for you, but I can't imagine you're able to choose playlists without looking at it for at least a brief moment.

Maybe you can enlighten us on how this PJB unit structures playlists, and thus makes it easier to find stuff?

Question,

I've just bought a RioCar and am considering a Sony Stalk Remote. How does this work exactly ? Is it via IR or is it wired ?

Considering the RMX4S. What functions does it control ? I don't have a tuner ...

Thanks

the sony remote is wired it plugs into the tuner module or you can make an adaptor with a pic that plugs into the serial port although I don't know if that works with 2.0 or not

The Sony stalk remote is wired IF you have a MkII with a tuner module. The Sony stalk interface actually lives on the tuner module, not the Empeg. I don't actually own one because I don't have a convenient location to mount it. I went with the Pioneer model which "clips on" to the steering wheel itself. So in terms of what functions it controls, maybe some RM-X4S owners can chime in.

I would like to see a way to skip playlists easily - so you could have all your albums seperated into their own playlist, and could skip to the next one like you would change cd's on a changer. Then maybe the ability to shuffle all by playlist instead of individual tracks.

I know one of the ideas of the empeg is to not be restricted in the same way as you are with a CD-Changer, but I often like to listen to a whole album and the ability to skip around albums would be kewl.

So, given I don't have a preference for remotes, which Pioneer model do you have and what functions does it control.

Is it IR or wired, and how reliable is it ?

My Pioneer is the CD-SR77. A decent drawing of the remote can be found here and you can buy one from many online resellers.

It's an infra-red remote so it has the problems of other IR remotes in that if you've got bright light shining directly on the remote sensor, forget about it. Ambient/reflected light hasn't caused me problems, but when direct sunlight hits it, it's useless. It's a small annoyance and certainly a wired remote would be nice, but the only wired one that works out-of-the-box are the Sony's, and they're not "steering wheel remotes" they're "steering column remotes." So I chose location/ergonomics over 100% reliability (mine works about 98% of the time, it's not all that sunny here.)

As for functions... Well with Frank's IR trans kernel, whatever you'd like it to control. And I actually hacked up the IR trans to allow for double the number of functions (minus one) by choosing one of the buttons to be a "toggle button" which toggles what each button sends. So there are 11 buttons, and normally 10 of them control things like next/prev track, volume, menus, source (tuner/player), info mode, etc. Then I hit the toggle button and the buttons all become the numbers 0 through 9. This lets me do searches from the steering wheel remote (a little clunky to remember which button means which number, but it works for me.) So the number of remote BUTTONS is 11, but the number of functions can be more if you don't mind hacking a little.

Really it's a matter of personal choice. My Pioneer works good for me and some others, but some people like the convenience of the wired Sony stalk remote. I just think I'd have to mount it in an odd location on my car.

How did you hack the toggle into IRTrans? I'd be real interested in doing this on my Kenwood SWR.
Jason

Argh unfortunately my home DSL connection is down (I'm at work) so I can't get the code for you right now. I'll try to post something tonight, but right now mine is based on an IR trans from awhile back.. I'll have to get the 2.0b3 IR trans and see if I can create a patch that goes "on top of" his latest patch. Maybe tonight, if not, this weekend.

It changes the way the ir_codes files are structured (there's a third column for the alternate code) so you'll have to mess with that as well. And right now the toggle button is hardcoded to be the CD-SR77's "ATT" button. If I release a patch, I'll have to make this configurable, or everyone will have to hand-edit the patch or something.

So Pioneer Remotes do not work without hacking.

Which remotes do ? Apart from the Rio obviously. I wanted a steering remote if possible but do not have the tuner to support the Sony Stalk.

Thanks

So Pioneer Remotes do not work without hacking.

Ummm there's a Kenwood steering wheel remote but I have a Kenwood head unit so its codes would cause problems in my setup. I also don't like the design of it compared to the Pioneer.

The hacking you have to do to get a Pioneer remote working is minimal. Frank's IR trans comes with basic IR codes for the Pioneer pre-programmed, so it's basically flash and go. I hacked mine to allow for twice the number of codes, that's purely optional.

It is horrible isn't it.

I think the word hacking scares me. How exactly does this work. I think I would be confortable with changing the config.ini ? What would I have to do ?

I seem to remember that Big John's RM-X2S serial interface would support the RM-X4S (without a tuner), but think that would be a DIY proposition at best. Plus, there'd be no room for the GPS!

Jim

Well for starters, none of the hacking you do is going to damage your music files or your player's hardware. No matter how much you screw up an Empeg Linux kernel, unless you specifically program the kernel to overwrite all your music, you cannot damage anything important. The most you would have to do is re-flash an Upgrade file, which can be done even if your Empeg's kernel is unbootable. After the upgrade, everything is back to normal.

Having said that, if editing config.ini is about as far as you want to go with your own hacking, then you have to depend on some of the kernels that others have compiled and made available. The IR trans kernel is set up very nicely in that it's already got Pioneer codes in there by default. So you wouldn't need to do any compiling or anything, you'd just need to grab the kernel image from Frank's site, un-archive it (WinZip can extract tar.gz files.) Furthermore, Tony Fabris' Logo Editor makes the process of uploading a kernel pretty easy. Take a look at Frank's instructions and see if you think you'd be okay with following the steps he's listed, and remember, if you screw up, it's just a 20 minute or so setback to re-flash an upgrade file.

In summary, one need not be a hacker to install other peoples' hacks.

In summary, one need not be a hacker to install other peoples' hacks.
Yes, Thank $DEITY for that!!

ok glad to see at least one person out there agrees with me :)

i think i can sumarize the improvement as: move to the next playlist in the same folder without starting at the top of the playlist hierarchy

I'll try to describe the PJB: it has 3 folder levels, no more. but all 3 are displayed at the same time.
example:
Set: rock
Folder: Randy Newman
Disc: 12 Songs

I can move the cursor to the Folder level and LEFT/RIGHT to select different Folders in the Rock Set. Or I can move it to the Set level or the Disc level and sroll through my Sets and Discs respectively. In some cases the empeg would be faster, for example to move to the first entry listed at the top level takes 3 clicks (right, down, down) but to get to most of the lower level items i can get there faster with the PJB.

as far as the remote being dangerous but the visualization/info is not, i don't use the info screen much but i like to choose the "blank" visualization so i don't burn out my screen and other times i like to show people the different vis options, and it's such a hassle to switch between them without the remote it hardly seems worth it (down, right 4 times, down, then select group, then select vis). i know you can turn some of the vis's off using the .ini file but i couldn't get it to work, so i'm out of luck.

just want to reiterate, the unit is wonderful and i don't have buyer's remorse, but i feel it is lacking a few "idiot" features to make it simple and easy to move around in my music or change my display

thx for responding :)
joe

AH, okay, I see what you're saying.

A feature that is oft-requested for the empeg is a "next playlist" button.

The only problem is, when you're playing the whole player from the top, it has no concept of playlists. It flattens the structure and simply plays a shuffled/de-duped list of 1200 songs.

The other issue is, what if the song was in more than one playlist? When you hit Next Playlist, which of the several possible Next Playlists should it choose for the next one?

I know this is besides the point, but why are you afraid of your screen burning out?

Sean

I know this is besides the point, but why are you afraid of your screen burning out?

Because phosphor burn really happens on VFD displays.

I left "now and next" up on my Mark1 nonstop for a few weeks and now the timecode portion of the screen glows slightly more dimly than the rest of the screen.

It's very faint and you can hardly notice it unless there is a visual up with large areas of flat color such as Caledonian or Image Pan. But it is there.

Yes I know that, but from what I understand, he wants the screen completely blank unless he has the menu pulled up. I usually just leave a visual running and have info:transient selected now.

Sean

i read in another thread that it happens, and when it happens to me, the unit wil be effectively dead so i want to postpone it as long as possible. i keep dimmer down to 10-40% and no vis on most of the time for this reason

The display will not burn in unless it has some bit of text or numbers up on it for a long time. As long as a visual is running that is fairly dynamic, you won't have a problem. You should turn the screen up! Its a cool screen, you should enjoy it! I have had my player for a year now and haven't had a problem with screen burn in at all. Maybe others can comment on this, but I think that dimming the screen and turning off visuals entirely is an unnecessary precaution.

Sean

if the screen get too bad can't we just replace it anyway ? I know someone on here did that when their screen was broken

Yes it can be replaced, it will just cost some money to do so. :-)

Sean

but i want to be using this thing for years, and if it's EOL now, i doubt i will be able to get spare parts or repair in 2-3 years. just my assumption, i would love to be wrong though :)

I think you can get the screen elsewhere, I think Hugo has mentioned where it came from in the past. The hard part will be getting the new screen onto the board.

Sean

Yes, the screen is available elsewhere - a coworker of mine is playing
with one in a project for his home computer. If anyone want it, I'll ask him
about where he got it.

/Michael

i think i can sumarize the improvement as: move to the next playlist in the same folder without starting at the top of the playlist hierarchy

I'll try to describe the PJB: it has 3 folder levels, no more. but all 3 are displayed at the same time.
example:
Set: rock
Folder: Randy Newman
Disc: 12 Songs

I can move the cursor to the Folder level and LEFT/RIGHT to select different Folders in the Rock Set. Or I can move it to the Set level or the Disc level and sroll through my Sets and Discs respectively. In some cases the empeg would be faster, for example to move to the first entry listed at the top level takes 3 clicks (right, down, down) but to get to most of the lower level items i can get there faster with the PJB.

[...]

just want to reiterate, the unit is wonderful and i don't have buyer's remorse, but i feel it is lacking a few "idiot" features to make it simple and easy to move around in my music or change my display

Ah, I see now. If I had to choose between empeg and PJB UI, I would always take empeg's (I have learned to use remote blindly, while it is velcroed somewhere handy). That said, empeg does lack some 'idiot functions'.

OK, due to idea of running order vs. playlist (in running order one can - and I do very often - splice other lists or individual tracks and manipulate in other ways), 'skip to next playlist' function is not doable. However, similar functionality could be achieved by opening the playlist tree at the most recently launched one, in stead of at the root (also frequent request). What nags me is that I seem to remember reading that such a function is somewhere in 2.0b3, but I could not find it (neither function nor reference to it).

Other 'idiot' function missing (it has been promissed, though) is 'stupid' bass and treble control easily accessible from knob sound menu (of course, in addition to, not in stead of, current excellent parametric equilizer).

Speaking of that, what happened to promised 'assign EQ preset to playlist/tune' feature?

In reply to:

---

if the screen get too bad can't we just replace it anyway ? I know someone on here did that when their screen was broken

---

I had to replace mine when I dropped my baby on the Kitchen floor. The manufacturer is Noritake Itron and the model no. is MN12832E. Empeg charged me around £90 inc. VAT & delivery for mine. It's dead easy to replace if you're fairly competent with a soldering iron.

However, similar functionality could be achieved by opening the playlist tree at the most recently launched one, in stead of at the root (also frequent request). What nags me is that I seem to remember reading that such a function is somewhere in 2.0b3, but I could not find it (neither function nor reference to it).

Press and hold the bottom buton when selecting "Playlists" from the menu. This will take you back to the playlist you last selected.

Also, pressing and holding when selecting a playlist or tune will pop-up a menu to allow you to append/replace/insert the selection into the current running order.

What nags me is that I seem to remember reading that such a function is somewhere in 2.0b3, but I could not find it (neither function nor reference to it).

It was in the 2.0b3 release notes as I recall. I have also added it to the FAQ under the "tricks" item in the player operation section.

i read in another thread that it happens, and when it happens to me, the unit wil be effectively dead so i want to postpone it as long as possible. i keep dimmer down to 10-40% and no vis on most of the time for this reason

Don't worry too much about phosphor burn.

In order to get burn on my Mark 1, I had to leave the same text screen up 100 percent of the time for weeks. And even after that, the burn is so faint as to be almost not noticeable. There are only one or two visuals where you can notice it.

If you are really concerned about it, you can do one of the following:

- Leave a visual up all the time or use Info:Transient.

- Use Mark Lord's new kernel with a timed screen blanker.

But there's no reason to keep the dimmer that low. Just use a visual instead.

I too have one of the pjboxes. jlira is right, the players UI is dead easy to master. But, for controlling that interface, it also has two more buttons than the Empeg.

It may not be apparent, but this interface mimics the way that I play CD's. I go to the rack, where all the albums of an artist are together, I pick an album, and typically I just play it thru. I'm not a DJ. I have no real interest is building play lists. That's just too much like work.



Buttons are [UP][DN] [PLAY,PAUSE][STOP] [RIGHT,RW][LEFT,FF]
Up and Down buttons select between the menu items.
Right and Left make choices for each menu.

Menu items are:
Set | allows selection between user defined list of disks
Disk | allows selection of a disk within the current set
Track | allows selection of a track within the current disk
Play | Everything, This Track, The disk, The Set. Limits the player looping within the selected branch of the overall list.
Order | Sequential, Repeat, Shuffle. (When the player is set to Seq. the player shuts down when it reaches the end defined in the Play menu. ]
Tone | {Cheesy} Normal, Extra, and Super Bass choices.
Time | Disk, Disk Left, Track, Track Left (what the clock shows)
Clock | (When the clock is selected as a menu item the r/l buttons function as FF/RW)

I think the empeg interface definately has a high learning curve to it, but once you get used to it (took me about a month), it's very intuitive.. The remote is very easy to use for searches/etc..

Let me tell you my typical behavior though.. I tend to use the buttons to shuffle, play next, then if I hear something I like, I unshuffle.. If I wanna call something up, I use the remote - takes less then 30 seconds to find a typical album/song.

One note though - w/ 2.0beta, the search isn't as intuitive because it seems slower.. (button presses don't register as fast on the search screen) - I'm assuming that this is something that's being worked on (2.0 IS beta)

-mark

One note though - w/ 2.0beta, the search isn't as intuitive because it seems slower.. (button presses don't register as fast on the search screen) - I'm assuming that this is something that's being worked on (2.0 IS beta)

If you're sure about this, report it as a bug.

Press and hold the bottom buton when selecting "Playlists" from the menu. This will take you back to the playlist you last selected.

Also, pressing and holding when selecting a playlist or tune will pop-up a menu to allow you to append/replace/insert the selection into the current running order.

{Slaping myself} Damn, Bonzi, RTFRN!

I am using the later routinely now; I guess it kind of 'masked' the former in my memory...

Hey, this works from both front panel and remote! Well, I hereby officially pronounce that in my book this implements 'gimme another album by these guys' feature quite nicely, without sacrificing any other aspect of UI!

It may not be apparent, but this interface mimics the way that I play CD's.

You have exactly defined what makes the empeg such an extraordinary system: with the empeg, you don't have to play your music like it was CD's.

A year and a half ago Tony Fabris summed it up pretty well right here. The empeg will change the way you listen to music, and instead of wishing you could play it the way you used to play your music, you will wonder why you ever played your music that way in the first place. (simple answer: because before the empeg, you didn't have any choice!)

I think that if you make a note of this thread on the bbs, mark your calendar and come back here again in 30 days, you'll find that your attitude has changed. It usually takes about a month to really "get it" when it comes to the empeg -- and once that happens, there's no going back!

tanstaafl.

Agreed. welcome to club Empeg. We'll give you the official welcome package after 30 days:)
-mark

As far as playlists I have NEW,FAVORITES, then all the ARTISTS that's it. I do have GENRES using numbers in front so that alphabetize to the top (beginning of the menu). I don't seem to use them much though but it's a quick jump to HARD ROCK or METAL when I want to.