My wife and I are ok, being among those you've met in the DC area.

PLEASE let the experts deal with this. Yesterday in quiet Brisbane, Australia, a school bus carrying Muslim children had rocks thrown at it.
A 12 yo girl called a radio station talkback and was just about in tears because she and her freinds thought WW3 might break out. The DJ handled it very well, to his credit.

As much as I want the perpetrators brought to justice, I will not be the one to judge anyone. I hope you encourage your friends to do the same and calm anyone you see who acts irresponsibly.

I hope the world powers work this one out. The last thing we need is vigilante groups administering punishment to whomever they choose. I admire Bush's speaches to this effect.



Murray 06000047
Just increasing my post count

Here's an article from MSNBC from 1998 that lays it out pretty well.

Here are links to a couple of RAM files (1,2) of Dave Emory's (KFJC, Los Altos Hills) broadcast called "What does the W in George W. Bush Stand for". I'm not meaning to jump on the Bin Laden bandwagon, only to point out Bush's links to Laden's family and business ties. You won't hear about any of this on CNN. It's very long, but well worth the listen.


I also suggest listening to the stream from KQED and KPFA.


|| loren.cox ||

The US did back Afghanistan when Russia was invading, much like Russia helped Vietnam against the US.

Exactly. US backed genuine resistance agains occupation forces, whatever anyone might choose to think about their respective ideology (and I personally would be hard pressed to decide which was worse ). Likewise, US intervention in Vietnam pushed the country much deeper into Soviet bear hug (that seem to be common mistake - if it was mistake - in US past foreign policy: Cuba, Nicaragua, Cambodia - OK, it was China, not SU...)

But what I was going to say first of all is that I am again impressed with our community.


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

It's like the historians say, the winners write the history books, and decide the difference between a lawless coup and a glorious revolution. Don't know for sure about Bin Laden, but sure sounds logical. Bush Sr. & Reagan both supported Afghans in their freedom fight against Soviets... diff. world then.

As I said elsewhere, whatever US real motives were in Afganistan, they supported genuine resistance against an occupying force. I remember seeing a photo in Newsweek of a heavy Soviet attack-fighter (MiG-25 or something) over Afghanistan with caption 'Have they learnt nothing from Vietnam?'

What I still can't completely grasp is why they hate us so.... can't imagine Americans dancing in the streets (see THAT video yesterday?) after an unprovoked attack like this in Mid-East. We have a perspective gap... that's where we need to look for the fix ....retaliatory airstrikes don't made a dent in solving this one.

They are second or third generation born in refugee camps, and are being constantly brain-washed into believing that the sole guilty party is 'American devils and their Israeli lackeys'. It is obvious that partition plan of '48 that created Israel was designed to be unstable (mostly by British, who, no doubt, hoped to keep interest there). What those idiots dancing in the streets don't understand is that this horrible attack (as well as those before) is designed to make sure there is never peace in their homeland (unless it is simply a work of a madman on extreme power-trip, without a political agenda, which I doubt).

As for Americans dancing in the streets, sorry, but don't be so sure. I did a quick sample of several newsgroups (starting with the obvious one - alt.books.tom-clancy), and some posts in 'nukem!' style are frightening.

Military action to remedy this sort of ongoing hatred is like treating a virus with a sledgehammer.

As I said, I love you, people!


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

I just whipped up a little website "Tribute" for this atrocity. It should load quickly. No ads, no banners, no counters... just my small tribute for the sorrow of the civilized world. This was my first attempt at a webpage, so don't make fun of me too much, okay?

Tribute


George

I am a mixture of so many emotions at this point.
A sense of pride for my fellow citizen and support for this great country and a feeling of distrust that my government, "of the people" isn't true to sound motivations or intentions.
I truely don't know who is the greater evil, while I certainly can't condone the recent actions.

That's the best summary of how i feel that i've seen. Thanks for putting is so succinctly.

PS... mind if i quote ya?


|| loren.cox ||

I deliberated on how I wanted to say that. I tried to keep it short and sweet.
If you like it, run with it.
I still don't think it fully contains my emotions. Only in the future can we accurately try to contemplate the present.
I just wanted to represent this community as a torn American citizen. I appreciate the comment made about how this BBS has outgrown just being about a product. I think it's a good snapshot of our diverse world. At least the European and American influence.
I didn't want to miss my opportunity to be part of this history.

What martyrs are we still dealing with today besides maybe Jesus? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm genuinely interested in understanding how much power a martyr has over a people. Does a martyr's influence last longer than a couple of years in most cases? Anyone have any examples?

-Ryan.

I'm not into 'arab bashing', but they are some of the most fanatical people in the world. except neo-nazis and other extremist groups.
I have seen doco's where arab parents say they would gladly send thier own childeren out with bombs strapped to them if it would aid thier cause. These people are prepared to go to extreme lengths to put their point across. They believe absolutely in martyrdom. In the recent suicide bombings, the faces of the bombers were posted as a hero in their home town.

I don't believe that Bin Laden was directly responsible but troops he trained did this act. The Afghani Taliban regiem did not directly allow this, in their own way both parties are responsible. Bin Laden for issuing the Fatwah in the first place, giving permission to extremists to take these sort of actions.
But again where do you draw the line. Is the US in some way responsible by the same logic for training Bin Laden? I'ts a mess. The only real solution I see is the prosecution and extermination of any people who DIRECTLY assisted in this act.

Death by paper cuts might be suitable. This was a highly planned and thought out attack. Even finding a direct culprit will not ease this sorrow.

I know many others have noticed this, there isn't a single BBS that hasn't mentioned this catastrophe.



Murray
I made a conscious descision in a semi-conscious state

Muzza, you have to remember that the extremists responsible for yesterday's horrors do not represent any large group of people, Arabs or otherwise. By saying that "Arabs are some of the most fanatical people in the world", you are making a dangerous and incorrect generalization.

That's the very problem that Dignan17 and I were trying to point out. It is far to easy to equate a race or a religion with terrorism. You have to be very careful not to do that, in a delicate time such as this.

___________
Tony Fabris

But that's just it.. these suicide bombers are heros, not martyrs. They are praised for their heroic action and then forgotten pretty quickly. I think that most martyrs are believed to be among the religious "chosen" and the followers believe that they will be closer to their god if they carry out the prophecy of their martyrs.

But I'm having trouble thinking of many significant martyrs that drive people for more than 5 years. Jesus is an exception. And it's hard to believe that Jesus as a man ever told anyone to kill and rape millions in his name, but sometimes a martyr is used for other motives.

Still, Jesus seems to be a pretty rare case. Destroy the leader of this terrorist group (binLaden or whomever) and his people may rally around him for a while, but as long as an equally strong leader doesn't step in, the followers will dwindle. Usually there is not a clear replacement leader, which causes a battle for power, and creates doubt in the minds of the followers.

Someone please step in with other examples of long-standing martyrs.

-Ryan.

But I'm having trouble thinking of many significant martyrs that drive people for more than 5 years.

Most martyrs are famous only among their followers. In Northern Ireland (a place where the kind of group-vs-group hatred that Dignan was fearing has long been endemic), each side still venerates their dead paramilitaries from decades ago.

Peter

I have an other exemple of a martyr, but again he never ask people to kill. He only ask his people to show passively that they don't want foreigner to control in his country any more.

Is name was Gandy and the foreigners were the Brit.
Nevertheless he was killed by an indian.

I think that martyr can't be a military leader.

But again, as it was already said in this board, don't amalgamate arab and terrorist. It's a real tragedy and I hope we never see this again.

Daniel

A lot of the Christian saints are martyrs as well. I'm sure that other religions/groups have their martyrs too.

I wouldn't consider these hijackers martyrs though. Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary (see www.yourdictionary.com) has a definition:
martyr
2 : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
but I don't think these people valued their lives, and what was the principle?? Hatered or the wish to inflict harm on others is no principle. No, these people aren't martyrs!

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

I can agree with a lot of points brought up here. I do want to address a some of them.

While I am proud to be an American, as I assume everyone here is proud to be who they are wherever they are from.. it saddens me to hear stories of innocent people being 'attacked' after the WTC disaster. Someone mentioned in Australia that rocks were thrown at a school bus of children because of their heratige.. and at one college slurs were shouted at another student. These people are obviously innocent and do not deserve to be treated like that. I am not for this type of behaviour at all. This is nothing but ignorance and hatred. I would like it known that while there is hatred here, not all Americans hate blindly.

It is true that in the past the United States funded the Afgan rebels in their fight against the Soviets. It is also true that the United States funded Sadam/Iraq in their fight against Iran. Those were different times. I also find it interesting that they both have turned on us as if we never helped.

Stereotypes would be best if avoided in conversations of this nature.. not all Arabs hate the west. But Bin Laden does.

While I consider myself to be fairly level headed I still have anger, and still want more than swift justice. Once proven, I still want his head on a stick on display in front of the White House. Is this not an acceptable punishment in their part of the world?

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

On the night this happened, I couldn't sleep and decided to go out for a walk.

There's a bridge over the A1 motorway behind the Campanille hotel where we have had the owner's days, that goes between Amsterdam and Germany. As such it's a major road freight artery and it is never really still. About a mile away it joins with the main North South motorway, the A 28, that takes all the national freight traffic to the North of the country. The junction is always visible from this bridge at night since it is a huge cloverleaf, and you can see no less than 6 traffic streams merging. In the summer evenings, the combined noise from the two motorways can be clearly heard when we're trying to barby/party in the back garden, and it can be remarkably intrusive.

I walked up to the bridge about 1 AM, and was quite surprised to find...

... absolutely no traffic at all. Nothing, no lorries, cars, nothing. Even the intersection was empty.

I stood up there for about half an hour until I got too cold, then walked home. It has affected everyone.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Charles the First of England, illegally executed by by his parliament.

The Irish martyrs from the 1921 uprising.

Likewise, those martyred in the 1690's attacks on the Catholics by the incumbent King of England, Prins Willem van Oranje.

The people killed in the Bloody Sunday Massacre of 1970.

These are only ones that I personally am aware of from my personal experience in life; it is not that they begin as martyrs, but that they become revered over the years in stories passed between father and son. Over time, they imbued with a heroism they probably didn't posses, but memory (and story telling) embellishes them with time.

The guys crashing the jets into the WTC, regardless of their evil intent, will be feted not only for any religious meaning, but also for being the first to do it.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Centuries, Peter. When I was there I was astounded at how people could relate detailed stories of battles from the 1690's and ealier, passed down by word of mouth by families and inside communities. I was told that to stop the old stories being passed and stop the hatred propogating would take the extermination of three generations of people; which of course, would start the entire cycle again...

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

Is this not an acceptable punishment in their part of the world?

I don't know, may be it is.But fot sure, it is not an acceptable punishment in *our* part of the world . .

Henno
mk2 6 nr 6

Centuries, Peter. [...] I was told that to stop the old stories being passed and stop the hatred propogating would take the extermination of three generations of people

I was going to add to my previous message a link to a BBC News page on the Ardoyne/Holy Cross conflict, in which a leading figure said something like "The curse of Northern Ireland is whataboutism, the reaction to any concession that starts 'But what about...' and names some violent event of years ago."

But I couldn't find the page again when I looked. Anyone got a reference?

Peter

Charles the First of England, illegally executed by by his parliament.

The Irish martyrs from the 1921 uprising.

Likewise, those martyred in the 1690's attacks on the Catholics by the incumbent King of England, Prins Willem van Oranje.

The people killed in the Bloody Sunday Massacre of 1970.

These are only ones that I personally am aware of from my personal experience in life; it is not that they begin as martyrs, but that they become revered over the years in stories passed between father and son. Over time, they imbued with a heroism they probably didn't posses, but memory (and story telling) embellishes them with time.

The guys crashing the jets into the WTC, regardless of their evil intent, will be feted not only for any religious meaning, but also for being the first to do it.

In this case, those handfull of morons celebrating in the streets of Jerusalem and Gaza will probably mention Black September of 1970 (king Husein crackdown on Palestinian bases in Jordan in the wake of their attempt to topple him) and Sabra-Shatila massacre in 1982 (when Israeli-backed Lebanese 'Christian' militia killed more than two thousand Palestinian refugees).


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

As I was reading through all these posts and seeing for myself how the hearts and minds of people from every nation in the world are with us here in America, I was reminded of John Donne's famous words:

"No man is an island, entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the Main. If a Clod should be washed away by the sea, all of Europe is the lesse, as well as if Promontory were, as well as if a Manor filled with thy friends or thine own were. Any man's death dimishes me, because I am involved in mankind; therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."

Thank you, everybody.
Adam

"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care..."
-office space

I do want to see those responsible held accountable for their actions.
I would certainly hate to see a country bombed, trying to flush out a suspect.
President Bush has ralied world leaders for support and so far has unanimously gained that support.
If a country chooses to assist a terrorist by harboring them, I think the world should punish that country in humane ways, such as with trade sanctions or other ecconomic punishments.
Perhaps, if violence is necessary, it should be directed at the leaders of the offending countries not the innocent people trying to go about their lives.
It will be a sad day if America chosses to return hateful brutal acts with the same.

The one martyr I had in mind was Joan of Arc. Alive, she was an ineffective leader. Dead, she was a rallying point - an inspiration for those she represented. That is why Saddam Husein is still alive. The US could have killed him by bombing more (it is illegal for the US military to target specific individuals with the intent of assassination btw). But, they he would have become a hero. So, we tried (unsuccessfully) to have him killed by his enemies within his own country. Bin Laden has religious and political clout. I personally think that killing him would only strenghten the resolve of his supporters. But, this is just one aspect of the "big picture."

Remember, everyone thought that tthe Oklahoma bombing was from "muslim fundamentalist" when in fact, it was American militiamen.

And please, please don't generalize a whole ethnic group, religion or region based on what one small group did. The thinking could lead one to say all whites in southern US (KKK), Sicilians (mofia) or Catholics (Northern Ireland conflict) are fanatics.

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

Where & how do you start to convey the feelings?

What words can you use to describe the sadness you feel when you think of all those people this sickening tragedy has touched?

The lives it has ended.

The terrible waste.

This has truly touched every corner of our global community.

I don't believe in violence & killing. However, I do believe that the perpetrators of this evil deed must pay for this. Whoever they are.

Just my thoughts...

Marcus (beaker)
32 gig (various colours)

That is why Saddam Husein is still alive. The US could have killed him by bombing more (...). But, then he would have become a hero.

Actually, they did try to take him out. I remember seeing a very specific breifing on the subject, where Norman Schwarzkopf specifically said that they targeted military installations they thought he occupied, with the sole intent of killing him.

Unfortunately, the time-lag factor of intelligence prevented them from hitting their target. They didn't have any trouble knowing where he had been, and they sometimes even knew where he was at any given time. However, it takes time to mobilize forces and plan attacks, and by the time they attacked that building, he'd moved on.

I fear that any action made against the terrorists will have similar problems.

My point is that, although I don't know anything about the "legality" of attempting the assasination of a military leader, I don't think they are worried about martyring someone. They are interested in achieving a much more practical objective. If you're fighting an enemy in a war, you can't hesitate because you're afraid of martyring your enemy. That would be foolish.

___________
Tony Fabris

>...Once proven, I still want his head on a stick on display in front of the White House

Actually, I don't mind my tax dollars going to house the people responsible permanently in an American prison (hold the KY). Put a webcam in his cell so we can all enjoy seeing the ugliest man in prison ass-rape our terrorists family style. If American prisoners treat pedophiles and Jeffrey Dahmer like they do, these terrorists have a lot of misery to look forward to.

-Ryan.

That's pretty funny to think about.