My heart goes out to any and all family members involved in the horrendous act of terrorism we saw this morning happen not 15 minutes from where I work/live.

I wanted to make sure that everyone who I've met from the DC area, if they are okay, and weren't near the attack when it occured this morning.

This is so unreal.

(O|||||O)

Me too....

Obviosly there are some really f...ing weird people in this world.

TommyE

Me too...

Some years ago a plane crashed into a building in "De Bijlmer" in Amsterdam, that was an accident, but this... This is too crazy for words... I was totally shocked when I saw it on TV.

Edwin de Vaan
mk2 rev.7 # 080000263 (queue 1232) 6+20Gb blue/red

This is the most sureal thing I have ever seen. Never in my life did I ever expect to see some things, the fall of the Berlin Wall for example.. and the attack here is one of them.

As far away as Dallas Texas is from New York, the entire city here is in shock. 4 hours later, there is no traffic on the streets and everything is shut down. For the first time in my life there is absolutely no air traffic of any kind. No helicopters, nothing. This is the strangest thing I have ever experienced.

I am considered 'essential personel' here at my work so I have yet to try to go home. I am still in shock.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

I am still here. I work away from DC....I was watching the news about the first plane hitting then we saw the second one....i can watch horror movies with tons of gore but this sickened me....

Squid2k1
---
18GB of Green Mk II Fury - Fast As A Shark

Just to add my personal condolences to anyone who is affected by, or knows someone affected by this act of terrorism.

I hope that it is some help to realise that all of the world are watching and thinking of you all at such an ugly time.

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

I most sincerely hope that no one from this board, part of this family, has been involved in this barbarism.

I am sad to acknowledge, however, that there will be a lot of families that will have been touched by tragedy.

I have no words for it, because I have never had to try and deal with something like this - the Bijlemeer crash, Lockerbie, Omagh.

Have strength, you are supported by everyone on this side of the pond.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I also want to express my condolescence to everybody who's or whose family got affected by this horrible and atrocious attack.

Bush just announced he'll hold a speech at 2 am CET. I'm curious what he's going to say so l'll stay up.

It seems the shock has not merely affected the USA.
Here in Germany, near Frankfurt, life also seems to have paused.

Mk2 40GB #090000592

Thankfully, I don't know anyone harmed, and nobody I know knows anyone harmed, though that might change by tomorrow.

My mom works at National Geographic and her offices were closed. She convinced my dadto close his office and they are at home safe in Northern Virginia.

Right now I'm at school in Williamsburg. The William & Mary campus was pretty much closed today. As I waited in class for our teacher, the 10 or so people out of 20 that were there were dead silent. This is not a good day.

I see the Pentagon all the time when I'm home in Northern Virginia. I was also in NY for my birthday at the end of July. It's hard to believe the skyline I saw then will never be the same....





DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

My condolences to anyone touched by this tragic event. This event has indeed touched the world.

I have only this one piece of advice for anyone who knows people affected by this. Don't hold back on wishing your symplathies. Not saying anything because you don't know what to say doesn't help. The people who have lost loved ones or friends in this DO need to hear your support, no matter how you put it.

This is so sad.

Murray 06000047
Just increasing my post count

This is... entirely sickening. It hasn't sunk in for many of us. Watching the footage, I was convinced that it was a scene from a cheap Hollywood movie... this will clearly be a changing event in the US and maybe the world. I only pray that it is not a seed of hatred. Although not on the same level as those who lost their lives or loved ones, all Americans and our allies are victims in this. Last night, I was talking to a friend who lives outside of the US (I won't bother mentioning where) and she was saying how indifferent many of her co-workers were about the attack. It is relieving to know that it is not the case with everyone outside of our borders....

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

I am past the shock stage and now boil in anger. Being the son of a career naval officer I am pretty patriotic. Times like this is when I am proud to see our nation and the people of the world put aside their differences and unite.

Something else, I say when we are 100% certain who is responsible, blow them away. Overkill. Turn whatever piece of land they occupy into a parking lot. Just my humble opinion.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

I'm the son of Army, and went to the Air Force for a period of time.

Green Glass parking lots MIGHT be overkill. MIGHT.

Personally, I see a quick progression:

a> Afghanistan turns Trash Bin over.

OR

b> Afghanistan allows American forces to take Trash Bin.

OR

c> We SOLVE their civil war for them. And Take Trash bin. In multiple parts.

Anyone who knowingly backs these animals should be dealt with. And don't bother contacting the diplomatic channels to do so.

I've got a friend in DC who is at the present, unaccounted for. My father has more.

MIGHT be overkill. Right now, I can live with that.

Anyone who knowingly backs these animals should be dealt with.

Amen. I'm sick of countries harboring these animals inside their borders, and then coming onto the newswaves saying that they are abhored to hear about these acts of Terrorism against the United States, and that they had no knowledge or involvement with the acts at all. They are as guilty as the one who orchestrated the entire event. Of all the things Bush said in his address last night, I think the part about "no distinction will be made between those who commited the acts of Terror and those who harbor them" was the part that rang most true with me.

Nail all of their asses to the wall. On pay-per-view. Reality television at its worst.



(O|||||O)

Last night, I was talking to a friend who lives outside of the US (I won't bother mentioning where) and she was saying how indifferent many of her co-workers were about the attack. It is relieving to know that it is not the case with everyone outside of our borders....

I don't know about the place your friend lives, but here in Croatia everybody is genuinely shocked. It's not just public TV and state officials; I listened this morning to a radio station that targets teenagers and young adults: they were still swamped by phone calls from listeners expressing their outrage, sadness and sympathy with America or simply asking to hear 'Born in the USA', some of Pete Seeger's patriotic songs or something like that. In impromptu polls people mostly cite our primeminister's words, 'After this, there is no returning to business as usual', and president's, 'There is no neutrality'.

Have strength!


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

I'm leaving in Switzerland (a little country in the middle of europe for peoples who don't know). Here almost everybody was chocked. All the bells of the country rang at 1PM in memory of the victims and all flags were down.

For now nobody know who did that. So wait and see what will append. Remember Ocklahoma City. At the time everybody were showing the palestinian, do I have to remind you that it was an american who does that !!

I can agree with Pache.. dont jump to conclusions about who is responsible. Wait. But from what I understand, the evidence is mounting and all fingers point to Bin Ladin. I can only imagine that the news released here is the same that my friends across the ocean are hearing. Personally, I am convinced its him.

Once we are certain, I say cook him over a slow flame with an apple in his mouth for all eternity. Sew his butt closed (can I say that here?) and wait for him to explode. Launch him in the next space shuttle, put him out for a space walk, and let the entire continent of North America watch as he burns up on re-entry. Cruel and unusual? Yes.. but vengence is a dish best served cold.

On another note, this BBS is one of my favorites. All of us from all over the world get along here just fine, with music and our empeg/rio decks in common. The users here seem to be of above average intelligence, and all of us seem to know good and evil when we see it. I want to thank everyone from over seas for their support in these difficult times.

Carl

080000506 12gb-green

Let's not make a martyr out of him either....

32GB (JUST UPGRADED!) Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

A very interesting point was made by a politician on the radio in the UK; Bin Laden was *funded* by George W's father when he was fighting the communists in afghanistan - only then he was called a "freedom fighter".

The difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" obviously depends on if they're doing your dirty work for you, or are senselessly killing innocent people.

I was rather shocked by that nugget; I'm assuming it was true. Anyone else know the history?

Hugo

From what I remember, GB had the CIA train the forces in Afghanistan to fight against pockets of Russian Communists they feared there. Then the US left them high and dry once the cold war funding dried up and support dried up. There were stories that the CIA may have captured key people in the groups they trained to calm that situation but it fueled it instead. Bin Lauden probably has a good grudge against the US because of it and is highly trained by our own people.

One key thing John Clansy mentioned was about how people are comparing this to other attacks; specifically Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was an attack on the military. This was an attack on civilians. How you term it all depends on perspective. "Terrorism" "Freedom fight" "War" it's all the same thing. One person killing someone else over possessions or idealism.

What I fear is the counter-attack from the US that willfall on people involved with this attack on civilians. You can tell that Powell and GWB have been waiting for something like this to happen to flex their muscles. I think they wished for too much.

My hopes and wishes for a better life and world go out to everyone in hopes that one day we can all live in peace without terror.

The US did back Afghanistan when Russia was invading, much like Russia helped Vietnam against the US.

I don't know if Osama bin Laden was involved in that conflict, I don't remember much about it. You are correct though, the term is dependant on who the actions are against, and the perception of the viewer.

In reply to:

---

A very interesting point was made by a politician on the radio in the UK; Bin Laden was *funded* by George W's father when he was
fighting the communists in afghanistan - only then he was called a "freedom fighter".

The difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" obviously depends on if they're doing your dirty work for you, or are
senselessly killing innocent people.

I was rather shocked by that nugget; I'm assuming it was true. Anyone else know the history?

---

BBC News also mentioned Bin Laden's history in slightly more detail:

<URL:http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm>

As an aside, the commonality we have here such that waaay off-topic stuff like this is acceptable is a sure sign that a newsgroup/list/bbs has crossed from a simple information exchange to a real community. That is what sold me an empeg. (Well, that and the technical capabilities, and the expansion potential, and ...)

--
Toby Speight - 040103385

In reply to:

---

was talking to a friend who lives outside of the US (I won't bother mentioning where) and she was saying how indifferent many of her co-workers were about the attack. It is relieving to know that it is not the case with everyone outside of our borders....

---

I am living in Germany and I can say that pretty much everybody who could was stuck in front of the TV for the whole afternoon (started at 3pm here).

I was watching everything live from shortly after the first crash on until 1am and I know that a lot of people were watching for even longer.

I can hardly imagine that somebody was left untouched by this.

Till

Two more things that occured to me after reading the whole thread:

- Germany (and I guess, at least in Europe, all other countries) have expressed and still express their condolences. Flags are lowered, people go to church and lots more

- Let's please not make any assumptions about who it was until we know for sure and let's not try to get any prejudices. Also, even though that sounds pretty hard for those actually involved, don't do an overkill revenge. That would lower you to the same niveau as the terrorists. As it seems, this attack was not done by a country, but by a group of people. I understand that the responsible persons have to be found and punished, however, this has to be done in an "acceptable" way. Whether there is / might be / has been a country involved backing up this group is a different question and has to be treated differently as well.

- Bin Laden has (according to various news sources) indeed been funded by the USA some time ago

Till

I think this song says alot, especially in this time of tragedy...

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
-John Lennon

Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful?

Dave Clark
Austin, Texas
12g Blue MK2
S/N was 80000329 -> now 90000970

I agree that often people are quick to accuse, but it's not like the FBI is going to chase cats up trees. I'm pretty sure the leads they are following are pretty strong, and regardless of whether Bin Laden did this act, I still think he's a horrible human being and deserves only the worst.

What I am more seriously concerned and scared about is our own counrty. Now that there are these suspicions, I'm worried about how people react towards our own citizens.

I've heard rumors that in parts of the country, people of Middle Eastern descent have become targets of ignorant, hate-filled Americans. What's in some ways worse is that I've heard this coming from several institutions of higher education, where I would assume people would be too intelligent for this. I attend William & Mary, a school I consider one of the best in the nation (don't know how I got in, but that's another story). There was talk about one freshman girl from Bangledesh on a bus back to her dorm off campus, when others on the bus started yelling horrible things at her. This sickens me. You wouldn't think that at such an institution, in such an innocent place as Williamsburg, there would be college students so pathetically stupid.

To make matters worse at this time, my own girlfriend is Iranian. Frankly, I fear for her. I hate that I am part of a racial majority that would be so ignorant and so hatefull towards other inoccent American citizens. I am very nervous and scared for her.

Hopefully people around here will try to calm down and think about who the good people are. Sadly, this is one of the truly horrible aspects of terrorism, that we don't know who are with us and who are not. Maybe people will calm down in the days to come and recognize, with the help of the FBI, who the real enemy is.

Sorry, I had to vent.

DiGNAN
Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc.

Well, there is no secret the that western world is "sponsoring" a lot in the
middle east. For starters, there are lots of oil there...

TommyE

You make a good point. We must not forget that these acts were perpetrated by a specific, organized group of terrorists. These acts were not perpetrated by a race or by a religion. It would be ignorant to condemn an innocent person on that basis.

___________
Tony Fabris

It's like the historians say, the winners write the history books, and decide the difference between a lawless coup and a glorious revolution. Don't know for sure about Bin Laden, but sure sounds logical. Bush Sr. & Reagan both supported Afghans in their freedom fight against Soviets... diff. world then.

What I still can't completely grasp is why they hate us so.... can't imagine Americans dancing in the streets (see THAT video yesterday?) after an unprovoked attack like this in Mid-East. We have a perspective gap... that's where we need to look for the fix ....retaliatory airstrikes don't made a dent in solving this one. Military action to remedy this sort of ongoing hatred is like treating a virus with a sledgehammer.

-Doug
Mk2-12G Blue (Now A/R Green)

Although I can (barely) grasp the concept of their hatred of us, what I can't grasp is how this particular act could possibly advance their cause. The only thing this can do is bring the might of our military crashing down upon them.

Yesterday, when talk of the possible suspects first came up, I did a web search and located some FrontLine interviews on PBS.org, which are transcripted here. Reading some of this material may help shed some light on the subject, although it is still difficult for those in our positions to fully grasp.

___________
Tony Fabris