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#363577 - 05/03/2015 19:04 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: Taym]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Originally Posted By: Taym
A laser-scanning turntable introduces ADC - DAC in the chain, which I am sure vinyl loving Audiophiles will wholeheartedly despise. Or maybe not, what do I know.



According to the laser turntable folks, it's all analog.

http://www.elpj.com/about/laser-sound-quality.php

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#363579 - 05/03/2015 22:28 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: larry818]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: larry818
According to the laser turntable folks, it's all analog.

http://www.elpj.com/about/laser-sound-quality.php


I was curious to see how they would argue such a thing, and of course I got the nonsense I asked for:

Quote:
True Analog Playback

The laser beam travels to the wall of the groove and back. The reflection angle is transferred to the audio signal, meaning that the LT maintains analog sound through the entire process, without any digitization.


_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363580 - 05/03/2015 22:32 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tonyc]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Quote:

However, the LT has no contact and therefore no coloration added, so the audio reproduction is as close as possible to the master tape.


Closeness to master tape is a recurring concept in the whole remarkable page. I wonder what they came up with to address the fact master tape is digital?
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363581 - 05/03/2015 22:35 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: peter]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: peter
Wait, people are still using laser turntables at atmospheric pressure? Haven't they heard of Brownian motion? Vacuum-chamber turntables are where it's at.

Peter


On the other hand, because they use light, laser turntables are more subject to quantum mechanics and arguably that will introduce some alteration to sound quality. I'd only recommend using laser turntables when travelling close to speed of light in the same direction of the laser beam, to compensate for that.
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363584 - 06/03/2015 03:09 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: peter]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Originally Posted By: peter
Vacuum-chamber turntables are where it's at.Peter


So you're saying vacuum tubes are best?

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#363585 - 06/03/2015 13:23 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tonyc]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I'm trying to think of other product types beyond hifi audio where snake oil is so prevalent. What immediately comes to mind:

- Kitchen appliances. Is there really an improvement in your food from a $1000 oven to a $5000 oven? Once you've added a circulation fan, is there really anything else to do? I guess you can make it look prettier. That said, the high-end SubZero combo fridges have entirely separate compressors for the fridge and the freezer, which seems like a good thing.

- Vitamins. They don't do much of anything and apparently many brands don't even contain the listed ingredients. But I'll bet you can pay more if they're "organic".

I'm trying to think of others and not really getting anywhere. The closest I can come is the fashion / clothing universe, but some people seem to find real value in wearing "brands" even when they may be otherwise identical to unbranded clothing.

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#363586 - 06/03/2015 15:05 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: DWallach]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Originally Posted By: DWallach
I'm trying to think of other product types beyond hifi audio where snake oil is so prevalent.


Car air filters. K&N in particular keep bees & boulders out, but don't do any significant filtering. They even come with magic oil (might be snake).


Originally Posted By: DWallach
That said, the high-end SubZero combo fridges have entirely separate compressors for the fridge and the freezer, which seems like a good thing.


Ah, but those compressors are the same production stuff any fridge gets, and Sub Zero have other issues, like on my pair (separate fridge and freeze), the backs rusted out because of a poor design that allowed the coolant piping to freeze outside. I haven't found that to be a problem on any of the big brands.

Originally Posted By: DWallach
- Vitamins.


Isn't that the area that the term 'snake oil' got it's genesis?

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#363587 - 06/03/2015 15:59 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tonyc]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
More snake oil:

- Bottled water. Holy cow. You melted a glacier for this?

- Vodka. Really. It's just pure ethanol diluted with water, unless the distillery was cheap, which means you also get methanol and other poisonous loveliness.

I believe "snake oil" had its genesis in "patent medicines" which had all sorts of quackery (and/or opiates or cocaine) about them. The modern derivatives of that world, such as Italian amari, are at least quite tasty.

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#363588 - 06/03/2015 18:35 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: DWallach]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: DWallach
I'm trying to think of other product types beyond hifi audio where snake oil is so prevalent.


How about, "Gamers" accessories. Eg. keyboards, network cards, heat spreaders, case fans, etc.

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#363589 - 06/03/2015 18:43 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tfabris]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
What surprises me is how easily people have accepted crap audio on their phones in a trade-off to have a portable swiss-army knife computer in their hands all day. POTS had/has great sound quality in comparison. Calls are clear and you rarely get disconnected. Conference calls anymore just wear me out. I spend most of my listing power just trying to figure out what someone just said on their $600 phone.

Maybe someday it will get better but I haven't seen any improvement in years. IMO just the opposite.

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#363591 - 06/03/2015 22:51 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: DWallach]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: DWallach
The modern derivatives of that world, such as Italian amari, are at least quite tasty.


As a side historical note, I am not sure Italian amari have anything to do with "patent medicine". Certainly they predate "patent medicine" (and the modern idea of "patent") of at least 4 centuries, possibly more. They originated in the form we know at least back in the early middle age, being traditionally produced by monks in monasteries lost in the Apennines or in the Alps.

They are usually based on herbs of different kinds, made according to quite complicated, time-consuming recipes which were kept relatively secret, changed and improved over and over in time. They are supposedly deriving from even earlier traditions (Romans, Greeks, many others) the monks preserved through the "dark age" and modified over centuries.

While properties of these drinks are often based on superstition, or just traditional believes, and certainly not scientifically proven, occasionally their (therapeutic, or of other kind) properties are real, not snake oil.

I am not sure how much big popular brands ("Averna", "Lucano", and others), available all over the world, are actually faithful to some of the thousands of traditional regional recipes (certainly they claim to be), but I would guess they were to some extent changed for mass production in the 50s and 60s, possibly to taste OK to the vast public (some of the handmade amari I tasted are way, way too strong, or way too bitter, I would say).

However, the word "amaro" equally refers to the "industrial" version of it, and the traditional small local products.

Interestingly, some monks still make them, to this day, and occasionally sell locally. You will find them, albeit not too frequently, on sale at stands in small village markets, or in stores that specialize in original, traditional, local products. Of course they tend to be pricey.




Snake oil: I'd say wine industry is just full of it?
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363593 - 07/03/2015 03:37 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: Redrum]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Redrum
What surprises me is how easily people have accepted crap audio on their phones in a trade-off to have a portable swiss-army knife computer in their hands all day. POTS had/has great sound quality in comparison. Calls are clear and you rarely get disconnected. Conference calls anymore just wear me out. I spend most of my listing power just trying to figure out what someone just said on their $600 phone.


Agreed. My usage of voice telephone calls has significantly decreased since all systems went to VOIP systems with terrible compression and awful latency. I have been recently powerfully reminded of how bad voice phone calls are these days because I'm on a job hunt and I've been doing lots of phone interviews. Wow it's awful.

The worst part I think is the latency. The timing of a voice conversation is a very important thing, and if they're hearing me say something three seconds late, we always end up talking over each other. God I hate that.

Fortunately, most of the time, the multipurpose computer in my pants gives me communication methods that make the voice call unnecessary.
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Tony Fabris

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#363595 - 07/03/2015 05:28 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tfabris]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: tfabris
The worst part I think is the latency. The timing of a voice conversation is a very important thing, and if they're hearing me say something three seconds late, we always end up talking over each other. God I hate that.


Yes, that's so annoying. Every call EU-USA, in my recent experience, is like that. frown
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363596 - 07/03/2015 10:49 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tonyc]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
I have no problems with VoIP compression -- it's actually better (more bits) than the compression with POTS (56Kbps in Can/USA, 64kbps in EU). And mostly the same for GSM (mobile) voice.

But latency. Oh, latency. Killer.

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#363597 - 07/03/2015 12:23 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: DWallach]
Redrum
old hand

Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
Woot has a "Must Have" today.

http://www.woot.com/offers/philips-golit...5383974#tracked


Oh yea, gota have....

- Has a similar effect on well-being as a sunny blue sky
- Light is a Natural energizer that fits a healthy lifestyle
The pure blue light of goLITE BLU increases energy levels naturally. The effect is similar to that of a sunny day, but without the UV rays associated with sunlight.

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#363599 - 07/03/2015 22:52 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: Redrum]
petteri
addict

Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Originally Posted By: Redrum


Oh yea, gota have....

- Has a similar effect on well-being as a sunny blue sky
- Light is a Natural energizer that fits a healthy lifestyle
The pure blue light of goLITE BLU increases energy levels naturally. The effect is similar to that of a sunny day, but without the UV rays associated with sunlight.


Well, light boxes have been known as a treatment for SAD (seasonal affective disorder). I used them when I lived in a more northerly area. I can say they did help me. Was that a placebo effect? I don't know. But you did need to use them regularly and according to the instructions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_therapy

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#363600 - 09/03/2015 07:22 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: mlord]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: mlord
I have no problems with VoIP compression -- it's actually better (more bits) than the compression with POTS (56Kbps in Can/USA, 64kbps in EU). And mostly the same for GSM (mobile) voice.

But latency. Oh, latency. Killer.


I have to say that the cellular network audio quality here has been worsening significantly over the years. Signal tends to be weak, so conversations are way too frequently disappointing (broken, with "statics", dropped). In addition to latency, of course.

I wonder how much of this is partly caused by Smartphones being generally weaker in reception due to their embedded antennas? Do you think this makes sense?
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363602 - 09/03/2015 10:04 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: Redrum]
Tim
veteran

Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: Redrum
Conference calls anymore just wear me out. I spend most of my listing power just trying to figure out what someone just said on their $600 phone.

At the end of last year, I was doing twice weekly conference calls at 4am on a cell phone with folks from a country that has a very strong accent, who were also on cell phones.

I would be tired all day after those 2 hour calls. It was mentally exhausting trying to understand everything.

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#363628 - 10/03/2015 07:23 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tonyc]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
... so, I was thinking, rather than Jewelry, Apple should probably enter the audiophile market.

"Tests show that as you may not know, if you push the play button on your CD player while wearing a > $17,000 Apple Watch, its gold chassis will prevent statics from entering the audio chain and your CDs will sound perceptibly better."

smile
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#363703 - 18/03/2015 18:36 Re: "A tall, refreshing drink of snake oil" [Re: tonyc]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
This is possibly the most pointless article I've ever read on Wired.

Seriously, why?

http://www.wired.com/2015/03/120000-speakers-like-parking-symphony-den/?mbid=social_fb
_________________________
= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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