Y'all, I was going to sign in and tender a complaint that Off-Topic was getting a little mundane. But then I discovered that I may have terminated my old account/password with extreme prejudice.

No worry, I realized, as I don't really want an account/avatar with a real name in it (not in these days and times, anyway) so maybe time to reset the post count to zero and embark on some low-level reinvention.

OK, beyond complaining about a very sedate Off-Topic, my reason to create yet another account is to pose the very simple question:

Edward Snowden: Pillory or Lethal Injection?

(Some sort of sig to follow, will try to avoid sock puppetness.)

Out of curiosity, what was your old account name?

I hope to live out my years in peace and relative anonymity. To further my progress in that realm, I am trying to reduce my metadata profile on the InterWeb.

So I'd rather not say. Consider me a naked infant reborn, albeit with a lot of weird Empeg baggage.

Your name's not Paul, by any chance?

tanstaafl.

Uh...okay.


Of course, it's a little like Cobert's "great President or greatest President" question.

I say neither. He's a whistleblower.

And at the very least, if he's in the pillory (I sense you're British), he'd better be up there with Clapper.

Good grief, no! And he wasn't even unhip to use his actual name as a handle. I was very naive in 1999. Oh, and I am not really trying to be coy, but I am working on a little more anonymity and abstraction. I mean, how much can you talk about somebody like Snowden on a crawled BBS like this before you wind up on a no-fly list? I got a vacation coming up!

Or "Please tell the jury when you stopped beating your wife!". That was kind of the idea, going off of what I see for news coverage of the PRISM affair. Oh, scratch that. The *Snowden* traitor affair! I have to rely on a *British* newspaper to get any news!



I'm with you on that. I would hereby formally offer to have Snowden's love child. If I weren't so old. And a guy.

I've been more interested in the response to what he leaked then the man behind the leak. It's brought up some rather uncomfortable questions in the international community, and I'm rather curious to see how they are resolved.

Overall I'm just happy to see that as we continue to see computing and information usage grow rapidly around the world, our ability to expose unlawful activity by public officials is increasing. I do fear mob justice at times too though with this newfound power to broadcast information so quickly and to so many people.

Agreed. I've been a little surprised at the lack of outrage from most people. I would have thought this would be a much bigger problem for the public, but it seems to be mostly the techies that are ticked off. I feel like the people understand the issue, they're just willing to give up those freedoms because they're scared...

While I enjoyed how Paul mixed things up he went too far and deserved what he got, if not more.

Snowden - He pointed out the obvious (at least it was to me) so to me his actions were not big deal. However the argument that “Enemies” will now be better informed is perhaps a good one. If one act of terrorism or killing of someone is enabled by his actions then he should reap the consequences. Also no doubt he signed his rights away to discuss such things when he took his confidential job. Signing your name should mean something.

In these days of outsourcing and subcontracting, there must have been thousands of people who knew that three-letter agencies were routinely disregarding the Fourth Amendment and lying to Congress about doing so. Only one spoke out.

America, he was your last patriot. I hope he turned the lights out when he left.

Peter

So England’s house is clean hu. Or maybe a patriot will come forward to help you.

We don't even *have* a Fourth Amendment. What they routinely do here is therefore even worse, and they don't even really have to lie about it.

Peter

It sure does. If you are Wilhelm Keitel or Alfred Jodl it means the Amis hang you.

The "solemn oath" argument didn't work out so hot.

Only one.


I have been focused on Snowden, his situation, and whether he can get somewhere safe. Soon. My hope being that then we can return to the bigger discussion of what to do with what he has given us. That is a pretty faint hope, though, I'll admit.

I guess I’m thinking off topic here as far as “signing.” This goes much deeper for Snowden.

It just annoys me that someone can sign a binding contract (say the loan on a house) and just walk away if they change their mind. Or sign to do something and then just not do it if it doesn’t suit them.

I know there are minor penalties but it seams many have no moral problem with this sort of thing.

Maybe it’s my grumpy old man coming through – “Kids today…..”

I should point out, Mr snowcrash, that not having your name on here doesn't really mean much. It's likely trivial for the NSA to figure out who you are.

All you're really doing is ensuring that when they come to take you away, the people here won't know how to ask around about your disappearance because WE don't know who you are.

Cool. Could they tell me who I am?

When you take a job like that, you sign your life away. They tell you repeatedly that disclosing information is treason. Retraining every so often so you don't forget, etc. It is a binding contract between you and the USG for the rest of your life.

There could have been other ways he handled it, but he committed treason on so many different levels, there is no way he should be treated as a saint.

I changed my haircut!


I just wouldn't want you to worry. And you'd probably just wind up on the no-fly list, too!

I'd think my cheerful demeanor would make my identity obvious, esp to the few folks in this thread I have met in person.

Why do I feel the urge to go home and watch _Downfall_?


Enlighten me on those other ways he could have revealed what he revealed.


What levels are those? Daniel Ellsberg was likewise charged under the Espionage Act, but today walks the streets of the USA without a tracking bracelet. I hope that some day in the future Snowden will get to walk the streets of the USA. Without an ankle bracelet, even.


I guess that's true. He's embarrassed a lot of people who might even believe that they mean well. And the Vatican hasn't OK'd the second miracle.

Classified information abuse lines for one.


He should have been, but since I wasn't around at the time, I can't say what went on. What I can say is Snowden stole classified information, released that information, and released that information to a foreign entity which has more severe penalties depending on the markings of the document.

There has always been a strong suspicion of what was happening (as far as post 9/11 stuff), but no solid proof in the public realm. We learned a little bit in 2005 from Mark Klein exposing the AT&T wiretapping. In 2012, 3 NSA whistleblowers came forward to confirm the AT&T involvement.

Snowden has gone forward with providing more evidence to show what is going on, with enough depth to reveal the full program name and reaches. It's the difference between having hearsay vs real evidence. Very useful for establishing standing for legal cases to proceed. And a number of them have begun to be filed and given the goahead from judges to proceed.

Clearly a contract that violates law (in such a basic, fundamental way) is to be consider void. And you, as a citizen finding out about it, are actually in a moral obligation to to what the guy did.

All this assuming Prism is in fact illegal, and that Snowden had info to reasonably believe something illegal and very wrong was being done.

This, of course, in pure principle.


In reality - but we no nothing about it - everything and its contrary is possible; Snowden could be an secret services agent playing a role in a major deception plan to public opinion to do who knows what behind the scenes, and you can think of all conspitacy theories you want. Or not. Who knows?

We can rejoice. AG Holder has ruled out execution and/or torture.

What a low point the US has reached when we need to stipulate to such

No. He has only announced that - an act that makes it much harder for many countries to grant Snowden asylum (as risking death or torture is often one of the key criteria). Of course the opinion can always change after Snowden is in US hands...

Understand completely. The cynical maneuvering making it all the more nauseating. I think that if I had somehow convinced myself to vote for Obama I would be slitting my wrists right now.

But do I expect good faith from *PUTIN*? Nyet.

Snowden: half my age, twice the guts. Vaya con Dios, man.

I mean, other than the case of the display extender, how often do you get bonafide Top Secret info on the EmpegBBS?



Oh, I suppose I should reference the latest slide show from the Snowden-Greenwald conspiracy:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

I want to file a complaint that you have given me a bad Supertramp earworm problem. On the other hand, I talked with Stone's people and I think they are agreed that this should be in the soundtrack.

Neither do we, in Italy. But, it's also just a bit worse. Last Dec 24th a DPDM (Prime Minister's Decree, if u pass me the inaccurate translation) stated that any digital info in any db of any company (ISP included) must be disclosed to investigating authorities if such authorities think accessing them *could* be useful for matters of National Interest. So, not only we don't have a Fourth Amendment, but now its opposite legal principle is a law (approved bypassing Parliament).
So, Secret Services here can just "tap any digital wire" as they please.
Interestingly, this thing had NO media coverage at all.