http://www.electricimp.com/jobs/

I can't tell you what it is yet, but my new company is hiring... any leads appreciated and yes you will most likely all want one

OK, can we pre-order?

I'll have 2 then please

I thought he'd electrified one of these but whatever it is I'll have one too.

I think we should plan a meet already. Who's hosting?

I'm thinking you'll only need one...

Need a Unix admin? Can I work remotely?

Now that would be awesome.

I'm just curious why the custodians of the electricimp.com domain live next door to the Microsoft campus in Bellevue.

You'll want *at least* two. I wouldn't be surprised if people on the BBS have at least 5 each, and no I'm still not telling you what they are!

Is that where eNom are from? Oh dear, that's unfortunate. I do hope they don't use next-door's servers!

I'm okay with that, if you're okay with me not telling you how many I'm ordering.

+1

You'll have to let us know how much they are so we know if we need to start saving up for 5 or if we can just search the sofa for change.

I've already got one, and my wife says it's a handful. Zing.

I don't think Hugo's going to be selling children.

Well, if most people are going to need 5 maybe I should budget for at least 10 ???

I certainly hope the beta program is going to be a whole bag of empeg awesomeness !!!



Cheers

Cris

Am I going to want one for each room in my house, or just the main living areas?

Mine is going in the garage.

I'll wait to get the other four once the 2.0 version comes out and 1.0's are on sale.

That may be a good plan, but you know there's going to be debate over the fascia.

*grabs popcorn*

*leans back into chair*

Peter

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooh

you tease

You think I should mention that they're made with lasers?

Are sharks also involved?

Is a dilithium crystal involved?

Offensive home security system?

"Fuck off you thieving bastard" ?

You may well want quite a few...



pca

I hoping it will be as good as this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6EOvYZ93o4

Better

Tracking device. That's my guess.

Wired has leaked it

Will u please ship to EU since day 1?

B.S. Ears are primarily cartilage, I never liked it when mine was used to get my attention.

Probably not... but it will be CE approved. EU might take a little time to get sorted out.

Not long now!

It seems an announcement has been made.

I was guessing home automation, and I wasn't far off.

The wraps are off..

http://www.electricimp.com/

http://gizmodo.com/electric-imp/

http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/16/electric-imp/

It's a fabulous idea - the demos are very impressive. I'm already working on a couple of geek projects involving them. Hugo will hit the big time with this one (to make up for that silly phone thing he worked on).

Rob

Spectactular. Hits the same nerve as things like the Arduino, from the quick look at it, but even more awesome. Really interested in getting into this. Tweeted this to all my hacker/maker friends just now. Awesome.

Congrats to both Hugo and Peter for the announcement today, looks like this could be really useful and a lot of fun to tinker with.

So now we are just waiting for European availability.

....well, and US availability. Not until the end of June...

They will be CE approved from the start, but until we spin up some european servers, imps will be a little laggy in the EU

If they lag too badly my cats are going to bump their heads. Won't somebody please think of the kitties?

Rob

So how long before this becomes the unofficial imp BBS? Might actually become relevant again.

And how long before someone makes an imp-eg to control and possibly update their player?

Can't wait to replace the x10 I have with this stuff!!! Looks great!

Can already think of lots of uses, I hope it gets adopted and built into things quickly.

What is the prize for the first person to fit an imp into an empeg ???



Cheers

Cris

Wow! So excited about this. I love home automation, and nobody has even done lighting correctly yet. I really look forward to seeing what becomes of this.

Cheap, simple WiFi connectivity.. something I've been wanting for eons! Though not too sure about the monthly fee thing.

Cheers

Mmm.. USA-centric "sign up" page: doesn't accept postal codes from outside the USA.

Heh.. looks like I'll have to beg one of my pals who has an iPhone to let me use it for a few seconds to configure the EI cards for our Wifi!

Yeah... me, neither. Can we run these things without "the cloud"?

$25 per imp card plus the cost of imp-ized devices to hold them. I'm trying to comprehend the cost of doing every light switch in the house. It would get pricey. Consider what I've done now, the $40 "solar timer" switches I put into two sockets to control lights that I want to turn on automatically at night. What would an imp-ready light switch cost, such that I could program it to behave equivalently?

The other place in my house I'd really want an imp-ready thing would be my outdoor irrigation controller. When they installed it, I asked about a WiFi-ready model and the guy quoted me an astronomic price. No thanks. Vanilla model it is, for now.

Yeah, I'd imagine the price point would have to fall quite a bit for it to be cost-effective in light switch type applications. Seems like medium to large appliances and hobbyist projects would be the initial market.

I'd be interested to see what the tech inside the card looks like as compared to, say, the Eye-Fi, which seems to do the same basic thing (albeit for a different purpose.) The Eye-fi developers often mention limited hardware capability on the SD as a limiting factor in supporting new features.

I'd also echo the earlier comments about the questionable decision to assess a monthly fee. Why not just build the price into the cost of the device instead? As others alluded to, it would definitely be nice to see an option to allow people to run a server at home instead of requiring connectivity to a cloud service. Maybe those who had the knowledge to stand up their own server could use it without paying the subscription fee?

Hugo: how hard would it be to connect this thing to the ide bus on the empeg? They already make IDE to SD adapters (like this one). I'm assuming your card, while borrowing the form factor, is significantly different in the way it operates. Could one reasonably expect to use one of these to add wifi to the empeg?

The same doesn't really apply; Eye-Fi has a huge NAND chip in there that we don't have to fit in ours - our antenna is also waaaay bigger. The hardware is obviously limited, but not *that* limited.



It doesn't really work like that. One reason is because card firmware is not something users will always have access to - a washing machine vendor isn't likely to open their code and so it needs to stay private. If people ran their own servers then they'd need the entire code database for every vendor in order to make things work seamlessly.

Subscription is for up to 20 cards in our current model for the same price - it's not exactly bad value. It's possible we'll offer cards with included subscription, but they'd obviously be more expensive.

That wouldn't work I'm afraid. You *could* use an imp for a serial bridge, but maybe that's not really what you were looking for in terms of wifi performance

One per switch could get pricey, one per room on a new build is much more plausible though

I agree there are getting to be too many things with a small monthly fee.

Relatively speaking.



Fair enough. Maybe you could offer a less fully-featured server with more limited functionality (i.e. proprietary bits removed) for hobbyists to use, though?

Good to hear you're at least somewhat receptive to the idea of prepaid activation though. Seems like a win-win to me, you guys get cash up front and we don't have to worry about yet another subscription to manage.

I suppose the blog is the place to stay tuned for further announcements about manufacturers you're partnering with, etc.? Or is there some social media channel you're using that would be more up to date than that?

I'm interested to see where this will go, ie the uses people and manufactures will come up with for this low cost internet connectivity, and whether I'd find value in these products. I don't need a bird feeder that tweets, or a washing machine that turns on during lower rates - though I understand the appeal to some. But I know others can imagine more wilder and useful things that could be done, and I'm sure some of those might open my wallet.

In the mean time can I have some yummie imp cupcakes?

If you don't count X10 products (because they're crap), then it seems the price might match current home automation levels. A typical Z-Wave light switch costs $50, so if the switch its self costs around $25 plus the EI, that would be about equivalent. Plus, you'd get far more than just a solar timer if this behaves the way I would assume. You would be able to set dimming levels and scenes, and control them remotely instead of just by the time.

Plus, this cloud-based service has the potential to make the programming and control of a light system much easier. Z-Wave is great, but if I ever need to change anything it's a nightmare. I can't just sit at a computer and fiddle with things, it takes a great deal of time and annoyance. The one area where Z-Wave has an advantage is that instead of WiFi, it uses its own proprietary mesh network. It's annoying and means you can't join it to a normal computer network, but it does create a rock-solid network with no range problems. Still, I'd trade that for better control any day.

ps- I should note that I didn't buy my Z-Wave products at that $50 level. I swooped into Radio Shack during a fire sale and bought up the stock from several stores AND a ton of stuff from their website. It was still expensive as hell, but less than half what it would be otherwise

pps- just signed up for the newsletter. Mailchimp is great, BTW.

The problem is with the device being nothing but a (very tiny) doorstop when ElectricImp eventually goes bust (1-10 years from now). Imagine a whole home automation system based on it.. now needing replacement.

Or not necessarily "going bust", but simply "losing interest" or "deprecating the product."

Ain't gonna fly, at least not with anyone who thinks ahead.

I have to say I don't really get it. I mean, the geek in me thinks that this is very cool, but I'm struggling to see what the market is.

I'm imagining this is a technology that would be licensed to OEM manufacturers, like the washing machine example, but I'm not exactly sure that embedded connectivity is the long pole in the tent for these things. I certainly don't see a large market of enthusiasts who will connect them to their own franken-devices and program them, etc. I am probably ignorant and missing it, but I don't understand what problem this solves. If I am going to design a machine of some kind that has the socket for an imp, along with the logic and hardware to use it meaningfully, then why don't I just put my own wifi chip and antenna on the device? Sticking one of these into a camera won't connect the camera to the internet unless the camera has software to use it, right? Or am I wrong? Is that the point? I don't understand.

Of course, it could go very well...

I do see what you mean, but on the other hand any local server that a normal person might put in will likely also suffer from bit rot. A subscription service at least has a reason to continue operating as long as it has subscribers - My UK TiVo service ran for many many years after TiVo abandoned the UK market, for example.

If you want to roll your own home monitoring/control solution, there's a wide range of things on the market to do that work.

This pretty much addresses the why: http://www.electricimp.com/manufacturers/

It's a royal pain "just sticking my own wifi chip and antenna on the device". Besides, just doing that gets you... a device on local wifi. You'll need to run a service too, plus write some phone apps, deal with upgrades, sort out your security and configuration, etc.

All this is stuff which is best done once, by people whose business it is to do this stuff well. Would you trust a washing machine vendor to keep your device up to date with security updates, add facilities to talk to whatever new useful internet service comes out, or, god forbid, make their machine work with some other product made by a competitor? It's not their area of expertise - there's not really any money in it for them either.

Besides manufacturers like this, we're opening the market for "boring" devices to become cheaper. Want a plug top power controller? Buying a no-name chinese brand would be awful if you were relying on their software (and for them to fix bugs and provide updates), but buy one with an imp slot and all they have to do is make a power supply and a relay in a plastic box. You get proper networking and integration from a specialist.

Separating the networking/service bit and the device is actually a really good way to go.... at least IMHO

Lots of equipment in a typical home could benefit from decent Internet connectivity.

A furnace and A/C system that could report when the gas burner doesn't light as quickly or conistently as it used to (but the problem would otherwise be hidden behind an automatic retry and restart design until complete failure occurs) or the A/C cooling output is less effective than expected. Equipment that can request the owner call for service before failure or even directly request the service itself.

Equipment that can provide useful and usable ongoing and historical operational data. Equipment that can report and monitor trends and forecast wear, consumption or sub-optimal usage.

Equipment that can be told (via the Internet) when the power rates are lower (or higher) and factor that into its operation. Or be told about outside weather (current or forecasted) and adjust intelligently. Less local sensors and more efficient operation.

An outdoor ice/snow melting system that knows when the snow storm would actually arrive and preheat. Or automatic sunshades and climate control that know when it is cloudy without using local senors.

Equipment that can report operational statistics or other data back to the manufacturer or service organization.

Cars that can report each night their fuel consumption numbers and potential service items. Refrigerator that orders its own replacement water filter and it arrives the same day the 'replace filter' message appears on the front panel.

Devices with no front panel at all that you can easily configure and control from your smartphone or a web page. And provide data about how and how well the device is working.

Commercial equipment of many forms, from vending machines to security devices to specialized and vertical market equipment. Toner for the photocopier arrives just as it is needed.

Smart remote cloud services that add layers of management and integration to make swarms of enabled devices (of many different types) act and react in smart ways.

And many more...

Potential seems tremendous. Excellent!

I'd rather have the subscription "cost" built into the device at point of purchase, at least that way the only things I have to worry about are:

* it breaks (and I have to buy a replacement - and effectively I'll have paid for 2 subscriptions for the "same" device, but that's preferable to a monthly ongoing subscription which I may have to expand depending on how many units I have)

* the servers go off at electric imp.

Without playing with a device and knowing how it works, would there be the possibility of electric imp providing a "hobbyist" server, you know, something that will allow imps to run independently of the cloud but without support for commercial imp connected devices? I wouldn't even care about an overlord license on it "this may only be used for IMP devices that you own" etc.

Cortex M3? Energy micro?

Edit: Seems not, ST....

I can see a massive market myself.

Take my Pioneer AV Receiver for example, that is "internet" enabled. But it is quite difficult to use and need it's own app on the iPhone to work. As I see it if it had an EI slot on the front I could slip in a card fire up my home automation software/service/app and it would be there ready to go!

Apply that to most new electronics in a home and the doors really start opening up.

Cheers

Cris

I like the idea very much, but I imagine the hard part is getting manufacturers to implement a EI slot on their devices. (you'll need one of those on every device using it, if I understand correctly?)

If you could get them to do this, then you're all set.

Will you also look into getting it connected to existing home automation standards? Like EIB/KNX?

The STM32F2 in the Imp is a Cortex M3. I absolutely love these micros, I've used them in dozens of applications over the last couple of years. Of course in this case we're kept out of the firmware (at least directly) but from what I hear the script engine runs very quickly (and so it should).

The power consumption also looks very good. My first project will be adding an Imp to my RFID cat flap which runs on 4 AA cells. If Hugo's figures are accurate, and assuming I can get a wakeup signal from the RFID module, it should run for months/years on a set of batteries.

Rob

We're just in the process of doing a cut down version of one of our products and in addition are looking to cut our power usage. The "systems" our product are used in are generally battery powered, but we're talking big batteries (30+Ah) because of the load that it drives.

However, static current draw is a concern to us (because the load isn't on anywhere near 100% of the time) and we pretty much hit the limit on what was achievable with the old design and micro (SAM7 micro).

We knew we were moving to Cortex from ARM7 and we had a good look around at what was about, including the STM32 and the offerings from NXP, TI etc.

We eventually settled on the EnergyMicro family of Cortex M3 because they were designed from the ground up for low power, there's some pretty neat stuff in there for optimising power usage, oh and they're also pretty darned cheap.

...wants to get hands on an Imp to have a play.

This is where the greatest potential lies but also where my greatest fear for the product is. It makes complete sense that these companies should hand over this part of their product to someone who knows what they're doing, but it seems that more and more, these CE companies seem to be under the impression that they're software and service designers too. Convincing them otherwise seems like it will be the toughest row to hoe.

Right up until they did actually turn it off. Luckily TiVo's that old were hackable enough that someone else was able to carry on where TiVo left off and provide a programme guide that still works.

So, I think I'd be happier committing to a system if I knew that there was no DRM or other artificial mechanism that would stop the device (at least theoretically) working with an alternative service.

A proprietary mesh isn't a problem at all if you're using a Z-Wave (or whatever) to WiFi (or ethernet more likely) gateway to interface with your TCP/IP network. I don't think having every light switch on your LAN will be very good in practice. I'd much rather have a single controller able to address all the switches, with only that controller connected directly to the LAN. IMO, that's much more useful and would allow a single server-like app to interface with all the switches. Otherwise for that kind of functionality you'd still have to install such software on a server somewhere, also connected to the LAN.

Or conversely, that the network implementers are CE experts. Who is going to implement the software? How will it work with this type of product? Will it offer all the features a particular company wants exposed for their product? What if they want different product lines to have different features? What if they DON'T want it to work with competitor's products? How will they differentiate?

I see the potential and I see some of the benefits, but I also see a ton of question marks and dotted lines.

I dunno, Hugo. I think the vendor is going to be concerned with how clean his machine gets clothes, and is not going to be interested in re-tooling his factory and increasing his manufacturing cost in order to accommodate the tiny percentage of nerds and geeks who think it is a good idea to connect their washing machines to the internet.

I can imagine a woman asking the salesman "But why would I want to use my washing machine to send emails?"

I think you will have a difficult time convincing manufacturers to abandon the NIH (Not Invented Here) attitude that is deeply ingrained in most businesses.

tanstaafl.

Since this device will integrate into a machine and control it I’m thing finger pointing might be an issue for the washing machine owner. When the washing machine breaks the repair person might say “That’s your problem right there, you got that there imp thing installed.” Then when you call the imp tech line you get a tech saying we don’t fix washing machines.

So if the washing machine company does want to provide good customer service they’re going to have to take “ownership” of the imp and warranty the imp. In the end this will cost the company more than just adding an imp slot.

Well, for pretty much everybody selling boxes, the fashionable trend right now is to move back to the old IBM mainframe revenue model. They don't want to sell you a washing machine, they want you to subscribe to a washing machine service, where the customer pays a monthly fee for having their washing machine maintained and updated. Great idea, but why would I want to have my washing machine updated, and does it really benefit from preventive maintenance?

How about a life-long subscription option, similar Garmin's life map-update subscription? That would possibly make those who don't like subscriptions happy. I am one of them.

Also, how about some ready-to-end-user device that may help the product start pernetrate the market? I, for one, would love a plug adapter to place between plug and socket that tells me about consumption, produces stats, allows me to turn on and off devices? I know a socket bult-in solution would be more elegant, but many of us, I think, would still love something like that to begin with. As a matter of fact, I personally would like it so much I'd buy a bunch of them from day one (of EU shipping)

Just thinking out loud.

Congratulation on the new product. I wish you succeed in establishing a sort of de-facto standard, or at least to get as popular as the product deserves.

... oh, and My wishlist also would include:

1. Windows Phone App

2. Runnign my own server app. I am a bit confused here. If the Imp exposes some standard interface on the user-end, why can't that info be collected/controlled by a local server just as it is from the cloud? I am sure I am missing some parts, here.

Where there is and ongoing service I am far happier to be paying a subscription rather than a one off cost. Quite apart from anything else, it increases the chances that the service will be around for a long time...

True. It is just me, I am one of those who hates installments/periodic fees/sybscriptions and other forms of payments that extend in time. Still, I use them all the time, it goes w/o saying. But, was I offered a $2 monthly fee or a $100 upfront lifetime, provided it is for a product I like and cherish, I'd probably go with the $100. What can I tell you.

I find my Garmin nav a nice (useful) device. Garmin asks for € 20 circa each full map update. But they also offered a life-long update plan, at € 100, which can be migrated from one device to another (but one device at the time). I particularly liked that. Only last week I updated my Garmin for the sixth time, so I am only now economically benefiting from the life-time subscription, after more that two years. If it wasn't that it is a water-proof model for motorbikes which they did not care to update so far, it would probably be outdated hardware, and after two year who knows what I would be considering now. Trying TomTom, getting a new model wich comes with at least one mat upgrade, etc. So, I am not sure the life-long subscription it is a valid economic choice. Pychologically, I like it. I just know that I can always plug my Garmin to my PC and update it, and forget all worries.

I've been pondering the business model behind the Imp and I think it makes more sense for "cheap" devices (light switches) than "expensive" ones (home appliances).

For the light switches, a builder can roll cheap switches that happen to be Imp-ready into any new-construction house. Most home buyers won't do anything, while some will buy a 20-pack of Imps and have a rocking home automation system. That makes lots of sense.

Conversely, for the fridge, the dish washer, or even the thermostat, there's a lot more going on. Sure, you could stick an Imp slot in a "dumb" thermostat, but that doesn't yield something half as smart as a Nest, with all its extra sensors and more sophisticated control systems. (Not that they exactly *work*, but that's getting off-topic.)

The other trick with major appliances is who gets to "own the experience" of the homeowner. If I'm GE or Bosch or Miele, I want the user to log into ge.com, not electricimp.com. Among other things, they want to connect sales and service. "Ahh, I see your fridge's water filter is expired. Can we bill your card and send you a fresh one?"

And then, there's the whole open question of who gets to be at the center of the "connected home." When you talk about coordinating things like your fridge and your A/C and your electric car, where you want to stay below some maximum current draw, you need central coordination to make decisions. Who gets to own that? Apple? Honeywell? Electric Imp? Heaven forbid we might have a *standard* for how all of this stuff will interoperate.

I'm going to try to knock up an Imp connected RFID cat flap to see how well it works in practice (keeping in mind this stuff is pre-alpha right now).

Blogging it here:

http://fenconsultants.com/blog/

Rob

Excellent point. Sadly the products I've seen that do this are obscenely expensive and look like they have terrible interfaces. I've been waiting for someone to come around to this market segment for years and shake it up, because it would be SO easy to do. I was hoping that Google was going to do it, but ever since that Google IO announcement about automation stuff, I haven't heard word one about it

I really need to reiterate how awesome the Z-Wave mesh network is. I have NEVER had signal issues with it, it works every single time, and every single device gets the signal every time. It's pretty amazing stuff. Now I just wish it were easier to set up, and had more control options...

How about: "of course I'd love to receive a text message/email/big red flashing light that tells me when the washing has finished or reminds me when the washing has been sat in the machine for half an hour and I haven't emptied it. Will this let me do that?"

It's a great reminder to get in the car and then drive, from work, an hour back home to deal with the wash.

A washing machine needs an wifi/lan/internet connection as much as an ottoman needs an oil pump. A wifi connection on that type of machine doesn't do anything remotely interesting (no pun intended) to automate its functionality. Nothing that isn't already accomplished with timers and sensors already built into machines for over a decade. The benefit of automation comes in removing/lessening the manual portion of the activity. A wifi connection can't do this.

Why would anybody start their wash before work when it takes an hour to get to work (my typical load takes 51minutes)? I see it more as a use for somebody outside doing lawn work, or playing in the pool where you can't hear the washing machine beeping.

While it's true to say the WiFi connection itself doesn't make this happen, it does open the door to a whole new world of automation and control. How about keeping logs of water consumption and energy usage? The weight of the load and suggestions of how you can do your washing more efficiently?

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out, and I look forward to having a play with it when it hits the UK.

Cheers

Cris

And just how is a washing machine going to do that without $100 worth of extra sensors and firmware? It would cost the manufacturer tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to re-tool his factory, purchase the additional pieces and install them, pay someone to write and support the firmware for the additional electronics, all so someone can pay $200 more for a washing machine that gets his clothes exactly as clean as the low-end model without all the bells and whistles.

Oh, boy -- more efficient. I can't imagine how saving two pints of water and 1/10 of a kWh per load is going to save me $200 over the life of the machine. At 10 cents/kWh, two loads per week, it would take nearly 200 years for the payback.

If my clothes sit in the washing machine for an extra hour (or even an extra day) before I put them in the dryer... Well, dilligaf?

tanstaafl.

Yeah. Right.

tanstaafl.

I think the idea is that modern machines already have most/all of those sensors (ours here does), but lack the UI to present/track it all. EDIT: they also lack time-of-day and utility rate info, but that is all available on the web once the device has internet capability.

With an imp installed to relay that info to a central server, remote web/based software can track the usage and compute averages and load advice etc.. and present it all with snazzy graphics within a web-browser interface.

The added B.O.M. cost is about a dollar to the washer, plus perhaps twice that much again in overhead costs, and they get to sell the "intelligent internet enabled" washer for an extra $100 to "savvy" consumers.

Cheers

Oooh.. and another use for the imp: any device that has (or wants) a built-in clock can now set the time/date all by itself. No need for extra buttons to do that, and no need for us all to (re-)do it after power failures or daylight-savings adjustments.

+10!

Modern washing machines already have a bunch of sensors, some including sensors to weigh the load and act accordingly.

And you keep talking about retooling factories. Manufacturers don't continually turn out the same* appliances year after year, they update and redesign them all the time. Adding an extra slot that is connected to the firmware and electronics they already have doesn't involve retooling the factory anymore that updating to next years models does.

* or at least they don't in Europe, though given the pictures I've seen of US appliances in the past, the same might not apply there

Exactly!

All that is missing is the connection to the outside world.

I see this a little like the difference between a computer without a modem and one with. At first we didn't all really get it did we? Then it hit the mass market and now we can't imagine buying a computer without some form of connection to the outside world.

I don't really see why a washing machine should be any different. This is a way of removing the premium model and just having everything internet ready if you want it to be.

Cheers

Cris

While washing machines have had these kinds of sensors for years, small and cheap integrated wifi chipsets have also been around for years. If manufacturers saw a demand for this, it would already be in their machines.

While wifi tech is useful for many applications, there are thousands of applications that are going to be left as "so what? who cares?"

Smart electric meters already have these tracking capabilities and by all accounts, people aren't using the stats or report-making abilities. Google shut down their tracking service as an example.

Honestly, most people don't want to sit around looking at graphs. I know plenty of people who do that during work hours who want to step on their computers at the end of each day. Which brings us back to the cool factor, which is automation. And you can't automate a washing machine with an internet connection.

The light switch example is much more apt, except for the fact where every switch is now going to cost $100+ retail. If you want to spend $100 on a light switch there are already products out there for you today. You might actually spend a lot less than $100 on the actual switch, but don't fret, you can make up for it in an expensive controller/gateway.

Now, I'd really be interested in hearing about the real/actual products this tech is going to find its way into. But I'm certain that if they were allowed to be announced at this time, we would already know. I suppose we'll have to wait.

Again, yes the WiFi technology has been around for years, but has someone ever come up with a end user friendly way of connecting all your appliances together before ???

WWV

I guess if your in a an underground bunker that might be an issue with RF reception but my WWV clocks work fine in the middle of nowhere. Maybe WWV is only a US thing. Not sure, and too lazy to check.

I would love to hook one of these things up but I can't figure out a need or want.

I've not heard of $1 wifi with an attached programmable microprocessor before. That *is* new here, as is the infrastructure behind it all.

Cheers

As I understand it, the support bits for the manufacturer are $1. The actual SD card is $25. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Bitt is right.

Isn't the retail price for the card $25 - so not really comparable to the $1 mfg incremental cost.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that the two parts are complementary. You can't use the EI SD card without the support bits, and, without the card, the support bits are useless.

To be clear, by "support bits", I'm talking about the slot to put the card in, plus the rest that makes that slot actually connect to something internal to the device.

My understanding of the way things are supposed to go is: manufacturers include the support bits in the item for very little cost, and then the consumer can choose to internet-enable the device by putting an EI card into it.

Oh, absolutely. But it's the cost to the manufacturer that's most important here. At $1/unit, they could well sign on, and then sell the "internet ready" appliance for an extra $100 or so.

Then some "savvy" consumers might decide that for the cost of a bottle of vino they'll add the $25 internet connection -- peanuts for anyone already buying the most expensive machines.

That's somewhat clever of EI -- making it cheap and easy for the factories to support the product, and leaving the major (well, moderate) portion of the cost up to the end consumer.

Cheers

Agreed, I wasn't clear.
I was more noting that $25 is retail and whilst the production cost for it is not likely $1 yet, it is likely to be capable of going to ${small} in the near future.

Electricity, Water and Gas meters with Imps in them would be really great. Even if a third party electricity check meter existed with an Imp slot, I know some of my customers (landlords) who would buy them a dozen at a time.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have a clock with this, and it seems to take about three days past DST to actually change the time.

Besides, that's a pretty weak argument. "Don't put this thing in that can do a bunch of stuff because here's another technology that's also not in any of these products that does only one thing."

Anyway, I'm already an Electric Imp fan. If I had the know-how to install these into things I already own, I would. Hopefully it'll catch on with manufacturers, and I especially hope it gets picked up by someone who puts it in a Z-Wave controller, so I can finally have some decent interaction with my house lights...

I really don't have an argument here just an observation.

If I were to argue I would say – “If it’s only going to set my clock or turn on/off lights I'm not going to pay a monthly service fee. Also I don't want to pay $44 for a clock when the older free technology will get me a $19 clock." I've never had to wait days for my clock to change.

But if there was something I needed/wanted to control or monitor remotely I would be all over this. I just can't think of one. The only thing I can think of is a home monitoring system. But they allow remote access now.

I would think remote temperature control of the house would be nice but I heat with wood and I don’t think this thing will load my stove.

No... but it could call the fire department when your chimney caught fire because you didn't clean the creosote out of it.

tanstaafl.

Good idea but unfortunately in the US government services like the fire department and police don’t take automated calls. But I guess it could call me or a neighbor. But after just spending $6k on a new stove and chimney I’ll take my chances. Plus my insurance is paid up.

I’m still thinking

AC system: Not sure if Nest does this, but remote control of the system when you are coming home early (and it is 107F outside) and the temp isn't set to lower for another few hours. Health monitoring so you can spot a problem and call the repairman before it is 95F in the house and you just got home.

Stove/Crockpot: Change the timer so that the cooking time starts earlier or higher temp so the food is cooked sooner. Adjust the timer on something like a bread-making machine to start earlier/later depending on a schedule change.

Irrigation system: Modify the timers while out of town to account for any weather changes/rain.

DVR: Notification that you ran out of space and are not going to get the show recorded you were waiting for. Delete shows remotely to free up space (Myth TV probably does that already).

Those are definitely some good ideas and I hope manufactures do build the imp into these products. I guess I’m thinking is more on the lines of “What can I hook-up now that will probably never be in a product.”

You did spark my thinking on irrigation. I have a cistern that is filled from a spring. If we have a heavy rain the water gets murky and this either clogs up the filter or in some cases gets mud into the cistern. If I could have this turned off automatically when a heavy rain comes, or remotely when I’m expecting a big rain that would be cool. However the cistern is probably 300’ from the house not in my wifi range.

I suppose I could also do this with a rain gauge to automatically turn off the flow. But this would be a cool project I could possibly do.

While I can see some value in turning on the oven remotely, eg I just bought a frozn pizza on the way home, I don't see £5.95 (~$9) a month value in it - I just don't eat that much pizza.

Paying a flat amount for several Imps would be more palatable, but the cloud offering will really need to be sweet, and the variety of appliances / uses to be great. Unfortunately I think manufactures will reserve this feature for their top of the line products, rather then the bigger mid-range market, meaning most of us will have to wait.

Oddly enough, since we mentioned that we were looking to use the energy micro family, our component supplier has been bending over backwards to get us to use the stm32 family, so much so that we're actually looking at using the stm32f2 in our design.

We like the fact that the BGA package is pin compatible with the f4 which has FPU and DSP bits inside and could be of use on our products "bigger brothers".

It's also fast!

Adrian

Sorry, Hugo. They talked about you and your company on the last episode of This Week In Tech, and it was surprisingly disrespectful. The moment they finished "discussing" your product I turned the show off and deleted the episode. I've sent them an email expressing my disappointment.

Was there any substance to their criticism? Just curious what their complaints were.

They didn't really say much about it. They weren't actually commenting on a story about EI. They were commenting on a quote from Hugo about phones being hard to build, where he was about the Facebook building their own phone.

The only thing they actually said about EI was John C Dvorak with his normal cynical "it has been tried before, it didn't work".

I didn't see any of it as disrespectful, they were just having an odder and crabbier week than normal

Isn't Dvorak reason enough not to go near that podcast? Ever?

Where in the podcast is it? I didn't realize that it was going to be 2-3 hours of four old dudes rambling on.

Edit: Found it. 1:18:55

Agreed! I went through the same yesterday just to hear the small snippet they devoted to Electric Imp. I had the exact same feeling: what rambling old geezers! Do you watch this show every week Dignan? Wow, talk about endurance!

It can be quite fun listening to it because of Dvorak. Not because I agree with much of what he says, hell I don't think he agrees with much of what it says, but it can be entertaining none the less. Very far from my favourite podcast though, think that has to be Hypercritical, probably.

Haha, yes, I tend to at least start it every week. It used to be excellent, but has very very slowly turned into what it is today. It used to be a great show analyzing the tech news of the week, but now they don't really say much of any substance, they ramble, and sometimes they don't even really talk about tech. This episode was particularly bad.

*edit*
And to add to that, I have a lot of problems with how Leo runs his shows and many of his newer viewpoints, which seem to conflict with older ones he used to have.

Hmm, didn't hear about that one. The NYT quote was a bit out of context - the correct context was an answer to a question about "couldn't they just take an HTC phone and modify it a bit", and I was noting that there's very little simple about "modifying a phone a bit". Everything in a phone is dependent on everything else to a very large extent - before you know it you'll be designing a whole new phone.

It's been interesting reading the discussion here; I do think it's *not* actually been tried before - not in this way - and whilst I accept that many large vendors will not try it at first (NIH, we've spent lots on our own solution, we only want things to work with our own products, etc etc), I believe that smaller vendors don't suffer from the same issues and will adopt it because, well, it's actually useful in some contexts and is a cheap way to differentiate products.

Longer term, I believe customers will start demanding the integration from the larger vendors, because it "just works" and is a user-centric service vs a vendor-centric service. Vendor-centric services often tend to deliver no user benefits at all, then the vendor is surprised when they don't catch on.

I need to listen to that one more. Started in back when John talked about the Jobs biography. More and more 5by5 shows are creeping into my list, displacing some TWiT ones.

This Week in Tech I think suffers from how many shows are on the network now. The really interesting discussions are very spread out, compared to when it was the only podcast Leo did.

Most of the shows on the TWiT network seem to have no state. In that they will discuss an issue, misunderstand or mischaracterise it and then never correct themselves in a following show. Or they will understand an issue one week, only to get mixed up on it next week.

The 5by5 shows on the other hand tend to correct themselves from listener feedback when they get it wrong. Which leads to a lot less of me shouting at the Squeezebox that they are wrong...

And I still can't work out if Steve Gibson is a crackpot, genius or both

I've noticed some of this too. Every show pretty much discusses the same issues, and then might make observations based on the theme of the show, but most of the time they just say the same thing everyone else is saying.

In other cases, I've found I simply can't stand the hosts anymore. I've listened to Tech News Today since the first episode, and it does help me stay informed, but I can't stand Sarah Lane and Iyaz Akhtar. If Sarah is hosting one day, I delete the show immediately. Tom Merrit, on the other hand, is great.


Ugh, I definitely hear you there. Leo has always claimed that he's all about the social aspect of podcasting, and he's so proud of his chat room. But TNT is the show that actually reads their email and gets corrections, and he's not on that one.


Haha! I think both. He's pretty dang smart, though.

So.. that cat flap thing. It looks like a one-way portal (diode).
Does one need to install two of them for a cat to be able to come and go as cats are wont to do ?

Hmmm - some info here: http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/

It'll let any cat (or no cats) out. It'll let any cat, no cats or your cats in. All depending on the position of a (manual) latch. That will need to be motorised really, for my project.

Rob

How about Raccoons and small dogs?

If they have rfid chips, yes.

I assumed "any cat" meant one without any kind of tag.

We had a ginger tom cat a good few years ago. We had a cat flap not unlike this one, but it was pre tog so it was activated by a little magnet on his collar.

We could set it so he go out, but not back in. It didn't take him long to figure out the door only opened outwards, and when outside he could hook a claw on the lip, pull the door out, get is head under and back in the house!

It was pretty impressive the first time I caught him doing it.

So all cats out, could also meant all smart cats in

Cheers

Cris

I just learned about Electric Imp by hearing TWiT stumble across it in their podcast... because I'm constantly three months behind in listening. I'm really glad to hear that Hugo and Peter are creating new and interesting hardware. Your venture seems well timed, poised to deliver before the rest of the industry figures it out and gets their "corporation centric" products widespread. Good luck guys!

And thanks for the 5by5 podcast network recommendation. I'm going to check out a few of their shows, especially In Beta with Gina Trapani and Kevin Purdy. Though the TWiT show may be a waste, Gina's appearance on This Week in Google makes it a good listen. Also a plug for TWiT's Triangulation interview show and Security Now, which you already knew about.

Hugo:

So is SmartThings a competitor? What do you think of their offering?

I thought the same thing. But to me it looks like they're not as ambitious as Electric Imp. If anything, it seems to me like they're trying to create yet another automation standard. An open standard, that includes interoperability (supposedly) with things like Z-Wave or Insteon, but still another standard.

SmartThings also doesn't seem to have the goal of being in large electronics like washer/dryers or fridges. In fact, they don't seem to have much of a specific gameplan at all. They don't mention how they're going about any of these things they're trying.

Last night I ordered one of these, which will become the new hub of my Z-Wave network. I'll be able to do a lot more with this thing. It can control Insteon and X10 as well, so I still don't get the point of this SmartThings project.


I maintain that the only thing that will ever change the home automation market is lower prices. The cost of these systems is still much to high for the average consumer to jump on it. Then we can start to address how awful it usually is to control all these things...

Link doesn't work Matt.

The Smarthings looks like a retail solution, whereas Hugo's company seems positioned as an OEM solution.

I don't think lower prices will make a difference to adoption. The fact remains that most people out there simply can't wrap their heads around the concept and wouldn't be able to implement the solution(s). Once you throw custom installers into the mix that can take some consumers there, but it's still a hard sell on the benefits to get them to pick up the phone to get an installer over in the first place.

To see these things take off you'll have to see adoption by home builders or utility-like monopolies. If it doesn't come standard with the home or isn't installed as part of an already familiar technology, I don't think the general public is going to get on board.

Fixed the link.

Yeah, I agree with that. I suppose I mean there's a decent-sized portion of DIY geeks who are thrown off by the cost. I don't suppose that lowering the cost will immediately spark a home automation revolution, but at the moment the prices are just too high either way. $50 for a single light switch or single lamp module is at least twice what some people are going to spend. I'm already dreading having to repurchase my light switches (when I move - the current ones are staying where they are).

Try $130+ for a light switch to work with URC gear. OUCH.

Forgot this bit earlier about custom installers...

If the product is retail, with few exceptions, it's not going to gain tremendous support from the CI industry, most of whom are operating in the dark ages and will only support/install/carry brands that offer them protection and support through exclusivity and super-fat margins. Nothing pisses of a custom installer like a consumer's ability to buy from someone else what he installs.

Pretty much on the same page as you are. They're buying in white-label zigbee/zwave stuff and then doing work to try and integrate these various devices at the operation level, vs at any lower level. This does nothing to help enable new classes of device, it just helps devices out there already may possibly get easier to use (though that remains to be seen).

It's been done many times before, though not at the same price point. eg Micasaverde does this for Zwave/Insteon/etc.

Indeed. I just picked up a Vera Lite, and I've been completely reworking my Z-Wave network. It's a great little box, and relatively inexpensive for the functionality it adds to my system. The software needs a lot of work, though, and my remotes are seriously neutered, for some reason. They have less than half their original functionality, and I can't figure out why.

On the positive side, today I was out and about and remembered I forgot to turn off the lights in my office at home. I was able to use my phone to turn them off from wherever I was That was pretty neat.

Thanks, I'd not actually seen that one! Nobody on forums.electricimp.com mentioned it

I've had an imp for a couple of weeks now and I'm still struggling to see the point of it (Sorry Hugo) I've been trying hard to figure out what purpose it actually serves.

The price point serves as a killer, I know as much as the next guy how much technology costs but given that essentially this is a one-imp per "device" system (+ subscription) it's going to get expensive fairly quickly.

My second problem is what use it actually is? Sure, I could have an "imp ready" TV or HiFi that lets me control it from my iPhone - but it's less hassle and less clicks just to use the remote control that came with the tv/hifi (over unlock phone, find app, open wait, wait for app to open). Sure, I could control these devices from outside my home, but again, changing the channel on the TV from 1000 miles away isn't exactly useful.

So, home automation? Sure, this is where you might think there's a possible use, but how is the imp going to work with it? One imp per socket? (Ouch! $$$) Ok, so a gateway, Imp->X10...but why not just forego the imp and go straight to X10 with an IP gateway?

And now I'm left struggling to find any other uses for it integrating it apart from "well, we did it because we could".

I've just been left with the feeling that this is a great toy for electronics hobbyists to add WiFi to a device and not much more.

Please tell me I'm wrong Hugo, maybe I've just skipped past that eureka moment that would lead me onto that killer usage.

I must have really missed something.

Not good for that use -- won't work locally, talks only to "the cloud".

Yeah, probably should have clarified that as *internet* (via cloud via WiFi) rather than direct to home network.

You can get the imp to communicate with the outside world via a HTTP interface, so you could in theory get an imp to communicate to something on the local network via a convoluted method.

Or you would buy an embedded WiFi module and use that instead, probably cheaper and easier for the hobbyist.

Now I think I have zero ideas where these things are useful!

I think that's the problem: You've *just* got the imp. By itself, it doesn't do anything. The point is that other devices will be built *around* the imp, and *those* are what will be cool. The imp fills a technological gap for any inventor who can build a neat physical device, but can't make good web-enabled software.

There are tons of devices that would benefit from being web-enabled, if only the people who made those devices could write decent software. There was always a lot of talk about web-enabled appliances, but it turns out most of the appliance manufacturers are only good at making reliable appliances. An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer). But the imp doesn't do that by itself, it needs the circuit to integrate it with the dryer. You need both bits before it's useful.

It's like the Arduino. You could buy an Arduino Uno board and stare at it and say "well this is useless". Or you could design a circuit that does something cool with it. Or, you could buy any number of devices that are already made by someone else, which happen to *leverage* the Arduino internally.

I work on embedded projects Tony, I'm aware of what I have in my hands!

I just fail to see why I'd spend $25 (per device) on something that tells me that my dryer is finished or my kettle has boiled or my fridge door is open etc.

They all have the same thing in common, they're all things that happen local to me, but because of the architecture of the imp require that the trigger go out over the network and then bounce back down to my phone, if my internet goes down I'll never know that my kettles boiled or my dryers finished...apart from the the fact that they're probably beeping or it's been 3 minutes since I turned it on.

Same for home automation, sounds like an ideal application, but again it's dependant on the cloud. No internet, no worky.

Show me something cool and convince me otherwise, but I still can't see it's usefulness other than being a curiosity.

Don't get me wrong, I want to like it, I want to see the use in it, I want it to succeed. I'm just struggling.

Sorry. Misunderstood you. I see what you're saying.

Let's see what other applications folks come up with? :-)

Not exactly. At least not according to EI's web site. The manufacturer would still need to develop their own UI and related software, but EI's web-based tools may make this easier for at least the web-based front-end. I believe the larger benefits come on the hardware end and they're covered on the site...

Lots of good information and explanation of what the EI product/solution offers: http://electricimp.com/manufacturers/

It's somewhat compelling from a manufacturing perspective and it's good to see that this page does a good job of explaining a lot of questions I had when the project was first announced.