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#350977 - 19/03/2012 12:01 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I love mystery software without a product page or any indication of what it does. wink
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#350978 - 19/03/2012 12:13 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#350979 - 19/03/2012 12:53 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: andy]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
You don't know how many links I clicked on with the original landing page to try and find a page like this. "DOCUMENTS" - go figure. wink

This is exactly the type of third-party app I was talking about previously, allowing you to bind an arbitrary keystroke to a different keystroke.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#350980 - 19/03/2012 13:17 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
KeyRemap4MacBook should be able to do what you want.

Thanks, Bitt.

Here's my issue: while I can already see things in OSX that I like, including a couple I like more than Windows, these keyboard shortcuts really don't make sense to me. I don't like having to transition from one key to another when I only need one in Windows, and holding down the command key for these actions does not seem ergonomic, seeing as it's right next to the space bar.

Anyway, I'll see about using that program to remap things. Thanks, Bitt. Keyboard shortcuts are a big deal for me.
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Matt

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#350981 - 19/03/2012 13:22 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Oooo. Now that is what I want. Thanks all!

Peter

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#350982 - 19/03/2012 13:36 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: peter]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Matt, there should be a command key on both sides of the keyboard for helping to reduce any muscle strain. For the command key on the left, I always use my left thumb.

Windows shortcut keys are quite barbaric and nonexistent when compared to what you have available in Mac OS X. In the OS, shortcuts should generally always be command-key based unless they are extended shortcuts which would then employ an additional modifier. So unless you're switching to a different OS (VM, etc.) you'll be pretty much using only the single modifier. CTRL is rarely used as a shortcut modifier, and then typically in combination with command. CTRL on the Mac is used for its original purpose, for sending control sequences to terminal sessions.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#350983 - 19/03/2012 14:29 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: Dignan
holding down the command key for these actions does not seem ergonomic, seeing as it's right next to the space bar.

While I'm not going to get into a religious discussion about the merits of various modifier keys, I am going to hold your feet over the fire on calling the location of the MacOS Command key less ergonomically preferable than the location of the Windows Control key. Unless you have some sort of stubby pseudo-vestigial additional finger sticking out of the side of your hand, there is no way that that Control key can in any way be considered ergonomic.
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Bitt Faulk

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#350984 - 19/03/2012 14:29 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Here's my issue: while I can already see things in OSX that I like, including a couple I like more than Windows, these keyboard shortcuts really don't make sense to me.

You are going to hit more of this as you explore deeper. There are reasons for why it's different. And yes, sometimes it's frustrating and weird at times. But it doesn't always mean there is a flaw in the Windows or the Mac way, it's just different. Similar to how one can know how to drive a manual transmission, and still feel weird when shifting with the left hand instead of the right. (Or the other way around for those who grew up shifting with the left)

Apple had the advantage of controlling the hardware and software from day one. When they felt there was a need for a modifier key that was different then the one already in use for terminal based apps, they had the ability to make that separation (Control vs Command). Microsoft didn't have this ability, so they ended up mapping a lot of GUI commands to Control when DOS, and the Unixes of the era already had many established control functions. It wasn't until Windows 95 that Microsoft influenced PC makers to add a dedicated Windows key. It also wan't mandatory, so it's been heavily underutilized compared to the command key.

Originally Posted By: Dignan
holding down the command key for these actions does not seem ergonomic

Ergonomics wise, the default home row hand position would have both thumbs on the spacebar. By placing command right next to it, there is less thumb movement compared to reaching for control. Or less finger movement overall compared to moving the pinky off A down to control. Back when control was where the caps lock key is, you could have equally minimal movement to access either control or command.

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#350986 - 19/03/2012 16:06 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: wfaulk]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Unless you have some sort of stubby pseudo-vestigial additional finger sticking out of the side of your hand, there is no way that that Control key can in any way be considered ergonomic.


It's not an extra finger, but I did spend 3 years using Emacs at University. You soon build up strength and flexibility in your little finger when you're pressing ^X combos all the time.

Of course, I use vim now.
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-- roger

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#350988 - 19/03/2012 16:51 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Originally Posted By: Dignan
holding down the command key for these actions does not seem ergonomic, seeing as it's right next to the space bar.

While I'm not going to get into a religious discussion about the merits of various modifier keys, I am going to hold your feet over the fire on calling the location of the MacOS Command key less ergonomically preferable than the location of the Windows Control key. Unless you have some sort of stubby pseudo-vestigial additional finger sticking out of the side of your hand, there is no way that that Control key can in any way be considered ergonomic.

Well, technically I never said it WAS ergonomic, just that the option key wasn't wink

Paying attention to how I hit it, when I'm speeding along with my fingers on the home row, it looks like I tend to hit it by curling my pinky finger and hitting it with the top of my fingernail. That sounds a lot less ergonomic than it is, and feels just fine to me. It also lets me hit the shift key with the first knuckle on the same finger, which is nice because I can roll onto it when selecting whole words, which I do constantly.

Much of what's bugging me about this is just because things are different, and I admit that. But I do believe that I'm switching modifier keys far more often. For example, ctrl+tab is still used in OSX for browser tab switching because option+tab switches between open apps like alt+tab in Windows. I copy and paste text between tabs constantly, and it seems inconvenient to switch modifier keys every time. In Windows, when my left little finger isn't on the A key, it's hovering halfway over the ctrl and shift keys.

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Matt, there should be a command key on both sides of the keyboard for helping to reduce any muscle strain. For the command key on the left, I always use my left thumb.

This is definitely a per-user thing, but the area between the spacebar and the left arrow key on my keyboard might as well not exist. I never use those keys. All of my keyboard shortcuts are done with a single hand, so that my right hand is free to use the arrow keys or the mouse.
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Matt

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#350989 - 19/03/2012 17:47 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
A popular shortcut mod (if any can be considered "popular" ) is to re-assign the CAPS LOCK key as CTRL. Then it's quite easy to hit it with a pinky.

I don't use CTRL-Tab to switch between tabs, but I just might now. I've always used shift-command-] and [ to move right and left through tabs. But that takes two hands.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#350993 - 19/03/2012 19:47 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
A popular shortcut mod (if any can be considered "popular" ) is to re-assign the CAPS LOCK key as CTRL. Then it's quite easy to hit it with a pinky.

I can definitely see doing that. It'll definitely take retraining, though, and that's what I'm trying to avoid in the first place.

Quote:
I don't use CTRL-Tab to switch between tabs, but I just might now. I've always used shift-command-] and [ to move right and left through tabs. But that takes two hands.

It also takes three keys instead of two, but it does make it possible to go right to left instead of just left to right, however, I can still do that by using ctrl+pgup/down, which again uses the ctrl key as the major modifier.

Let me clean my argument up a little. Here's three activities:

-switch tabs
-skip from word to word
-copy and paste

I do these three things in equal amounts all day long. In OSX, I'm going to have to get used to using the ctrl, option, and command keys, respectively. In Windows, I just need ctrl.

That's the irritation I have. The rest of it is just getting used to something being done differently (I can get used to command+tab for app switching, for example).

I also want to reiterate that I like a lot of OSX. I don't want to put people here on the defensive, it's just unfortunate that it's easier for us as people to go online and complain or seek help than it is to praise. I'll try to make a special effort to note things I like about using this operating system while I'm going through this, so I can post about them and not anger the Apple faithful as much smile
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Matt

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#350994 - 19/03/2012 19:48 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
Oh, and I'm going to need to get a good KVM switch, because I can't stand typing on laptop keyboards of any kind (nothing to do with Apple). I'd also like to make use of my 30" monitor, that is if the Macbook will support it. Any ideas on that, and what kind of switch to get?
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Matt

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#350995 - 19/03/2012 19:49 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
ctrl-shift-tab will go left in most properly-tabbed intefaces.

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#350997 - 19/03/2012 20:25 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: Dignan
I'd also like to make use of my 30" monitor, that is if the Macbook will support it.

That model is limited to 1920x1200, via a single link DVI connection. Only the MacBook Pro systems from that era had a full dual link DVI connector, prior to Apple switching over to displayport.

To get video out, you will need to track down an adaptor to go from the weird mini-dvi port to standard DVI or VGA.

No real suggestions on a KVM, but as long as it supports USB keyboard and mice, along with DVI for video, you should be good. Just keep in mind the dual link DVI requirement on your monitor (if using DVI) also applies to the KVM if you want to retain your 2560x1600 resolution from your main PC.

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#350998 - 19/03/2012 20:32 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: drakino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
Ah, thanks Tom. I do have the adapter already, I just wasn't sure what resolution was supported. Hopefully it won't look too bad.
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Matt

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#350999 - 19/03/2012 21:08 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Oh, and I'm going to need to get a good KVM switch

Many of us might define "good" as "USB for KB/mouse and digital for video."
With that in mind, I bought a "good" KVM last fall for $100. It's a Belkin 4-port SOHO.

Works well enough, no complaints. Full cabling was included for USB, DVI and sound (Line-out + MIC) for all four ports. Nothing else with digital video switching was even within 2X the price at the time.

Cheers

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#351000 - 19/03/2012 21:21 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: mlord]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
I bought a "good" KVM last fall for $100. It's a Belkin 4-port SOHO.

I've got one of those too, it works very well.
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Andy M

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#351001 - 19/03/2012 22:11 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: andym]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I'll tell you what KVM works very poorly on my 2009 Mac Mini. The IOGear GCS1104 has multiple issues. My mouse (Microsoft Wireless Mouse 5000) won't resume properly when switching to OS X. The mouse will only move horizontally. The audio switching also doesn't work on the Mac. The computer sees that something is plugged in, and shuts off its internal speaker, but no sound ever comes out.

I use the thing as a KV switcher only because of this. Avoid.

I recently upgraded this 2009 Mini (2.0GHz C2D) with Lion after stuffing it with 8GB of RAM. Unfortunately, the performance is far worse than the same machine with 4GB on Snow Leopard. The main issue is when trying to invoke the login screen. Mouse movement doesn't do it anymore, which is a bit annoying, but I can sometimes wait 60 seconds between wake, having the login box pop up, having the cursor visible in the password box, typing the password, then waiting for the typed information to be acknowledged. Then, for a minute or two after that, the machine is very sluggish and both cores of the CPU are spiked.

Is anyone else noticing this behavior? Keep in mind that the Mini doesn't ever actually sleep and the hard drive is also set to stay awake. Is there something I'm missing that causes this coma-like situation?

I have two other Mac Minis (current generation). One is the "server" with quad core i7 with 16GB of RAM and the other is a base model i5 with 8GB of RAM. Both those machines are virtualization platforms for Windows servers. The i7 has two instances of Win Server 2003 with 4GB allocated to each. The i5 runs a 2K3 machine with 1GB and a Win7 machine with 2GB. Both these Minis run Lion Server, but the i7 is always smoking-fast. The i5 can get bogged down at login just like my 2009 Mini sometimes, but generally regains its snappiness much quicker. So, does Lion need more than 2 cores or does it just crave tons of memory? Either way, the 2009 looks like its days are numbered.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#351004 - 20/03/2012 01:22 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
re-assign the CAPS LOCK key as CTRL

This is about the first thing I do with any computer I intend to use for any significant amount of time.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#351013 - 20/03/2012 13:00 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Does anyone else notice that trackpad pointer movement when running Lion will occasionally be slow or seem to get hung up when doing fine movements?

With 10.6 mouse movement on a unibody MBP was always fluid. Predictable acceleration and a very proportional feel.

Within an hour of using Lion I'm noticing that while sweeping movements seem the same or similar, often when making smaller movements the pointer will move far too slowly and that proportional feel is lost. This behavior seems random, like a hiccup of sorts, because just as quickly as it happened, it will disappear and thing will go back to "normal."
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#351020 - 21/03/2012 00:12 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
Bruno, I don't know if this is Lion, but when I was setting up my mother's Mac Mini, I was pretty irritated that when an application was loading, the cursor seemed to freeze when passing over its window. I think Tom has told me that this is an Apple thing, but I haven't seen it so far on my Macbook here...
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Matt

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#351026 - 21/03/2012 11:35 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: robricc]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: robricc
Is anyone else noticing this behavior? Keep in mind that the Mini doesn't ever actually sleep and the hard drive is also set to stay awake. Is there something I'm missing that causes this coma-like situation?

Rob, you should check the Console app shortly after these coma like states to see if anything relevant is being displayed in there. My mini at home has had some sluggishness, but not like you describe. Typically for me, it's struggling with some Flash videos, which I have yet to diagnose too much. I need to just convert the Mini to be Flash free like my other machines.

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#351027 - 21/03/2012 11:36 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Does anyone else notice that trackpad pointer movement when running Lion will occasionally be slow or seem to get hung up when doing fine movements?

Unless my battery is dying in the trackpad and it cuts off, I haven't noticed anything too weird with trackpad cursor movement with Lion. I however didn't use the trackpad as heavily in Snow Leopard, so I may not be as sensitive to any changes.

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#351028 - 21/03/2012 11:36 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: Dignan]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: Dignan
I was pretty irritated that when an application was loading, the cursor seemed to freeze when passing over its window. I think Tom has told me that this is an Apple thing

Not sure what you mean by a cursor freezing when being over a window being an "Apple thing". I haven't experienced that behavior either, but maybe it's a low resource issue going on. How much RAM does the Mini have? I have noticed Lion is more system resource hungry compared to older versions.

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#351029 - 21/03/2012 12:19 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I can't say I've ever experienced the cursor freezing over the window of an opening app. The mouse cursor is usually the most responsive UI thread, even as everything around it starts to hang. smile

With regards to the Trackpad, in response to Tom, I'm seeing the behavior on both the external Magic Trackpad and the one built into the MBP, so it's not battery related.

They changed a lot in Lion, despite the OS's outward and feature experience being on the (mostly) light side. The trackpad system was apparently completely overhauled as part of the introduction of the newer multi-touch gestures. Hopefully it's something at least a few other people inside Apple notice too and they catch the issue.

Apart from random issues waking from sleep or Safari taking down the desktop (mostly in Snow), one problem area since the beginning of time has always been disappearing network shares. When a network share goes down, some of the OS can take forever to realize it and will seem to just hang for ages, causing other software to go with it (like Path Finder).

Processes which I've noticed can really slow things down are mdworker and mds, which are part of the indexing system used in Spotlight - and of course Time Machine backups can put a drain on disk access every now and then.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#351031 - 21/03/2012 13:31 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Ok, I've been able to reproduce one pointer slow-down 100% of the time.

If I'm typing in a text box in programs within my VMWare Windows XP and the mouse cursor blanks (because I'm typing), moving it again causes it to appear and move very slowly for the first bit.

I thought this might be the universal cause, but it doesn't seem to happen in this text field in Safari. I'll keep my eyes open for more specific cases.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#351032 - 21/03/2012 13:32 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: drakino]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Originally Posted By: drakino
Originally Posted By: robricc
Is anyone else noticing this behavior? Keep in mind that the Mini doesn't ever actually sleep and the hard drive is also set to stay awake. Is there something I'm missing that causes this coma-like situation?

Rob, you should check the Console app shortly after these coma like states to see if anything relevant is being displayed in there. My mini at home has had some sluggishness, but not like you describe. Typically for me, it's struggling with some Flash videos, which I have yet to diagnose too much. I need to just convert the Mini to be Flash free like my other machines.

Shortly after posting my problems, I ran through OnyX on the 2009 Mini. It's a utility that I pretty-much forgot about, but it seems to have done something. Perhaps using Migration Assistant to go from 10.6 to 10.7 messed up some permissions causing the machine to hang? Since the cleanup, the login box still comes up lethargically, but I can now get in within about 10 seconds of waking the display. It still feels too slow, but overall, I'm pleased with the results. 10.6 was definitely faster on this machine, however. I'm thinking one of the current-gen Minis with AMD graphics would be a reasonable upgrade. Especially if I can get it from the refurb store.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#351033 - 21/03/2012 14:31 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: hybrid8]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
If I'm typing in a text box in programs within my VMWare Windows XP and the mouse cursor blanks (because I'm typing), moving it again causes it to appear and move very slowly for the first bit.

I'm unable to replicate this with VMWare Fusion 4.1.1 and a Windows 7 VM running in unity mode. I do see it if set the VM to single window mode. If I turn off "Enhance pointer position" in the Windows 7 Mouse control panel, it seems to change the behavior a bit.

Oh, random other tidbits about my VMWare setup, in Preferences (for all of VMWare) under Keyboard & Mouse, I have Secondary button turned off. (This is where VMWare will send a context click if I'm holding control and click. I can already do this without control, so it just tended to cause issues). I also changed the setting on the VM under USB & Bluetooth to not share Bluetooth devices. When Windows booted, it enjoyed disconnecting my Bluetooth keyboard and mouse for a bit before reconnecting.

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#351035 - 21/03/2012 14:38 Re: Hell hath frozen over! [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I've been using VMWare 3.x, but I've been seeing the issue all over the place.

I was having a USB problem in VMWare with my URC remote today, so I'm currently updating the VM to Parallels 7. We'll see how that goes.


Edited by hybrid8 (21/03/2012 15:19)
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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