#348878 - 04/11/2011 19:02
How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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I've got a WiFi only iPad2, so the non 3G, non-GPS version of the device. And yet, using its maps app, it's capable of pinpointing my current location accurately up to a few meters! I'm absolutely amazed by this and have tried this at several locations, everytime with the same incredibly accurate result.
How does it do that? It's not like it can triangulate my position. I'm guessing the external IP address is used, but I've never known this to be very accurate. Usually it can only pinpoint the town you're in and most of the time not even that. So how does Apple do it?
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Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
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#348879 - 04/11/2011 19:20
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Bitt Faulk
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#348880 - 04/11/2011 19:47
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Similar now. Apple licensed Skyhook initially, and has switched over to their own database. This location tech is also built into OS X and can be used to find a missing laptop if it's within range of WiFi.
This cache of information (WiFi, and Cell towers for 3G units) on the iOS devices is what lead to the locationgate stories last year. It was mostly overblown, and in the investigation, Apple revealed a bit more info. Specifically if you use Maps on a unit without 3G, and search for something on the map, it also downloads WiFi location info around the area you searched. This allows GPS like tracking when the device lacks an internet connection and real GPS chip. It's not as good, but can be better then nothing for a quick walk in a downtown environment in a foreign city.
Also neat, the iPhone will relay actual GPS information to the WiFi only iPads if the iPad tethers to the iPhone.
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#349019 - 08/11/2011 09:21
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: drakino]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Google Maps on Android is the same. Using my home Wifi, it gets the location to less than a meter or two. i.e. it pinpoints the specific area of the phone socket my ADSL connects to. Of course that must be a fluke since I could move my ADSL to one of the other sockets and it wouldn't know any better.
I had presumed that at some time possibly when the GPS and Wifi were both on at home, it matched the external IP against the GPS location?
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#349023 - 08/11/2011 11:49
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: Shonky]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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I'd guess that it also remembers the SSID from the wifi, and uses that as a validation step against the IP address.
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#349025 - 08/11/2011 14:50
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It actually just uses the WiFi BSSID (effectively the MAC address of the access point), which obviates the need to perform any active communication with the AP, It also means that the SSID is irrelevant.
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Bitt Faulk
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#349026 - 08/11/2011 17:51
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Also neat, the iPhone will relay actual GPS information to the WiFi only iPads if the iPad tethers to the iPhone.
This is a myth that somehow steamrollered into being and internet fact in a very short space of time! I thought it was a bit odd when the article first came about all those months ago.
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#349040 - 08/11/2011 23:31
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Also neat, the iPhone will relay actual GPS information to the WiFi only iPads if the iPad tethers to the iPhone.
This is a myth that somehow steamrollered into being and internet fact in a very short space of time! Hrm, I'll have to check again when I can do so in a more isolated location. If it is a myth, it was pretty convincing, and speaks highly of how well the WiFi location system does work.
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#349043 - 09/11/2011 00:53
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: drakino]
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old hand
Registered: 29/05/2002
Posts: 801
Loc: near Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Certainly when my iPad 2 is tethered to my iPhone 4 via Bluetooth the iPad has accurate GPS data. We use it often while traveling in the car for live mapping, and my iPad 2 is the WiFi only 3G model (but without an active SIM card) which does not have it's own GPS receiver.
I have not tested whether the GPS data is also available to the iPad when tethered to the iPhone via WiFi Personal Hotspot, without Bluetooth.
Edit: I have two iPads, one with 3G and one WiFi only. I may be in error as I have used both in the car, but apparently I have not have properly verified map updates with both.
About to update iPad to iOS 5 and new iPhone 4S. Will report back later.
Edited by K447 (10/11/2011 00:05)
Edit Reason: Inaccurate info, sorry about that
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#349046 - 09/11/2011 04:43
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: K447]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Here's a section from the FAQ from the Motion-X (Makers of GPS Software in the App Store)
Q12. “If I tether my iPhone 4 to my Wifi only iPad using the personal hotspot feature, will my Wifi iPad receive a GPS signal?”
A11. Unfortunately no. While there have been claims that one can obtain GPS location data by tethering an iPhone 4 to a Wifi iPad using the personal hotspot feature, this simply isn't the case. TabletMonsters.com posted a video showing what appeared to be location data passed from the iPhone to the Wifi iPad, but this claim has since been debunked by our own testing and others.
If you'd like to confirm this yourself, try the following. Setup the personal hotspot feature ($20/mo from AT&T) using Bluetooth to connect your Wifi iPad to the iPhone 4. Turn Wifi off on your iPad to ensure the location on the map isn't being updated using Skyhook's Wifi access point database. Launch the native maps app on the iPhone 4 and wait until you see the blue dot "ping". Your iPhone now has a GPS signal. While tethered to your iPad via Bluetooth, launch the native Maps app on the iPad. When the maps app is opened, a popup will state "Cannot Determine Location". So the iPhone didn't send the iPad it's GPS location data. If you turn Wifi back on, you'll see your approximate location updated on the native maps app on the iPad, but this location is simply your iPad looking up Wifi access points in Skyhook's database to determine an approximate location.
Theres also a couple of links inside that which show why this is false.
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#349570 - 21/12/2011 05:04
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: sn00p]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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This is a myth that somehow steamrollered into being and internet fact in a very short space of time!
I thought it was a bit odd when the article first came about all those months ago. Finally verified this, and indeed, it is a myth. Would be cool if Apple did add this though somehow, especially if it was done as a Bluetooth gos setup to work with other devices too. My testing spot was some random highway exit in New Mexico. The area was so unpopulated, they didn't bother to name the exit. The iPad couldn't find the location via wifi or Bluetooth tethering. The good part of the experiment, using star walk to find tons of constellations in the night sky. Always fun to do this where the stars visible number well into the thousands.
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#349574 - 21/12/2011 10:31
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: drakino]
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old hand
Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
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I'll bet you missed the stars during your time in the OC.
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#349579 - 22/12/2011 06:37
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Just another question regarding this Skyhook system. I've read through their website, and it seems you need to submit your wifi access point to them in order for it to work.
Then I'm wondering how the system was able to pinpoint my location so accurately, since I'm 100% sure I've NEVER registered anywhere that I've got a Wifi router. I'm pretty sure my neighbours haven't either since they are not really technology savvy. Then how does this system receive its data?
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Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#349586 - 23/12/2011 04:44
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 09/01/2002
Posts: 702
Loc: Tacoma,WA
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Just change the MAC address and SSID.  Even more fun would be to "swap" MAC address and SSID with lots of Internet Contacts/Friends at distant locations. "Why does my phone say I'm in Alaska??"
Edited by siberia37 (23/12/2011 04:47)
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#349587 - 23/12/2011 11:11
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: siberia37]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Heh! Yeah, that would be cool! Now, an SSID is changed easily enough. But how do you change a MAC address?
Edit: read up a bit on MAC cloning. Doesn't seem all that difficult, but the router must support it.
Edited by Archeon (23/12/2011 15:48)
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#349588 - 23/12/2011 18:32
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Chaos gains another toe hold.
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Glenn
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#349589 - 23/12/2011 19:11
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: gbeer]
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old hand
Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
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How about we all change to the ssid and mac address to that of someone in Hell, Michigan.
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#349600 - 24/12/2011 18:23
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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Heh! Yeah, that would be cool! Now, an SSID is changed easily enough. But how do you change a MAC address?
Edit: read up a bit on MAC cloning. Doesn't seem all that difficult, but the router must support it. It's a standard feature of the common replacement firmwares (eg. Tomato, DDWRT, ..).
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#349601 - 25/12/2011 01:35
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
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Am I the only one to think this is a bit scary, at least the fact that this is not at all being shared with general audience (at least, not here)? I had only >read< about the possibility of tracing back to your location these ways, a while back, but did not know it was actively being done.
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MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg
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#349602 - 25/12/2011 07:25
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: Taym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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No, you're not the only one. This is where that mac cloning feature comes in. But in a way it's sad one has to resort to these kinds of measures to protect one's privacy.
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#349604 - 26/12/2011 12:55
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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What kind of information do you think could possibly be gleaned from that data? There's nothing that identifies anything about you in your MAC address and SSID (unless you specifically put personal information in your SSID). It's merely being used as a beacon. That said, if you're really that concerned about it, stop transmitting radio waves into public areas.
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Bitt Faulk
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#349605 - 26/12/2011 13:25
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
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..and they know when he's at home (or not) from the geolocating data.
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#349606 - 26/12/2011 14:52
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Who is "they"? My Wifi access point doesn't indicate if I'm home or not. And if someone buys an iOS powered device, it specificially asks about using location features (where wifi locating would be used, along with cell towers and gps in appropriately equipped units). If its off, no one knows. If its on, only the services the person chooses knows the location, and it's only easily accessible if the user chooses to post location somewhere. This stuff all defaults to off and forces the user to make an active choice to turn it on.
Sure, with cell tower info, it's somewhat easy for the phone company to know where someone is, especially with E911 laws mandating this. But that's separate from wifi, and has been a general "concern" since cell phones existed, due to how they have to work. Or really any radio transmitter in general. And sure, someone local could have the right radio scanning equipment and use it to track my phone. I accept this as a minor risk to have the convenience of a phone usable nearly anywhere.
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#349607 - 26/12/2011 16:07
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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it's sad one has to resort to these kinds of measures to protect one's privacy. I would think that your telephone directory is compromising your privacy more than whatever info might be gleaned from your SSID and your MAC address. There you are, putting out your name, your address, your telephone number, even [sometimes] your marital status, for every nefarious ne'er-do-well to peruse at his leisure. tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#349610 - 27/12/2011 09:11
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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it's sad one has to resort to these kinds of measures to protect one's privacy. I would think that your telephone directory is compromising your privacy more than whatever info might be gleaned from your SSID and your MAC address. There you are, putting out your name, your address, your telephone number, even [sometimes] your marital status, for every nefarious ne'er-do-well to peruse at his leisure. tanstaafl. Heh. I don't know if that's possible where you live, but I simply opted NOT to be registered in the telephone directory. Saves me a lot of time from those pesky tele-marketing companies as well.
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#349611 - 27/12/2011 12:56
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: BartDG]
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old hand
Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
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In the US, opting out of the directory only opts one out of the alphabetical one they deliver to clients. There is also an address based one that you'll still be included in, and that's the one the telemarketingscum will be using.
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#349616 - 27/12/2011 23:20
Re: How can my non-3G iPad pinpoint my position so accurately?
[Re: larry818]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Don't they just autodial sequential numbers? Holding back only on the do not call nos.
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Glenn
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