I'm looking for a wireless mouse and keyboard that doesn't suck. That is:

• It must have the Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn cluster in the right place, and right order.
• It must have proper function keys. That is: not remapped to do odd things, and not half-size or half-height.
• It must have a Windows key.

I would prefer one with media keys, but not that fussed. I'm not bothered about Bluetooth vs. whatever RF, as long as it works with Windows 7.

You might want a Caps Lock and Num Lock LED as well. I know my wireless keyloard does not have one and that indeed sucks

Wow. That's oddly hard to find.

I only found one — Kensington PilotBoard — and then realized you probably wanted a UK layout, and they don't seem to sell a UK version of that.

Check to see if HP sells one. They sell a US keyboard that matches your specs, but their site seems hosed right now and I can't get it to load to search for either one.

Yeah. Most modern keyboards tend to mess up the function keys (which I need because I use Visual Studio, and a lot of the keystrokes are function-key based), and the ins/del cluster, which just freaks me out when Del and PgUp/Dn are not in the right place.

Oddly, I don't think I'm bothered about that, but I might be once they're missing

I'm still very happy with my Logitech DiNovo keyboard + mouse combo (not the Edge variant, the classical DiNovo), but I don't know if they still sell it.

Just to clarify what that means, is this the right order?

I understand what you mean about the function keys. It used to be that on laptops you would see the alternate functions on the F-keys, and you had to hold down something like an Fn key to use them. I see a lot of laptops these days that do the opposite, where you have to hold down the Fn key to get the F-keys, and I hate that.

I have the Logitech K800, which I've really been liking. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to meet your requirements. The F keys are slightly more than half-height, but I think they're contoured in a way that makes up for that. They have a good feel IMO.

The only negative I have for this keyboard is that the battery runs out pretty quick because of the backlight. I love the backlight, but while I probably replaced the couple of AA's in my old wireless keyboard every 12-18 months, I probably have to recharge my K800 every other week. It's not a big deal, though, I just hook up a micro USB cable overnight and it's done. Or I can keep working on it while it's charging.

You didn't specify any requirements for the mouse, did you? Anything you're looking for there? I like my Logitech Performance MX quite a lot.

I'd imagine he'd prefer a UK keyboard layout.

Yes, I see. I wasn't familiar with the UK layout. I was only linking to that image to verify what he was talking about in the section I quoted above. He said he wanted that cluster in the "right" place, but how do I know what he thinks is the right place?

Meh... the paint on the key caps doesn't matter, you can set your layout to whatever you like.

(says the guy touch-typing dvorak on a qwerty keyboard)

I always wanted to play with Dvorak. I even set up my favorite free typing tutor, Stamina, to use it, but never got around to it.

Anyone know why the US and UK layouts are so different? Wikipedia somewhat explains it with the need to type £ and € commonly instead of $, but what about historically before the euro? Why the extra keys, and different enter for example? Is it mostly just legacy from wanting one physical layout with different key caps for multiple languages in the European area?

Ah, but what does matter is the position and number of keys. And that UK layout has a different arrangement than my US keyboards and many other keyboards I've seen. As a quick example, there's an extra key between the left shift and Z keys.

And if you use that keyboard without a UK layout at the software layer, you're going to have to start swapping keycaps around.

But unfortunately (or fortunately?) it's impossible to make a single keyboard perform exactly the same way in every locale because of the software layers that remap the key codes. Not when using HID or key codes anyway. I suppose someone could make a keyboard with a micro-controller that spit out specific unicode strings. Then you'd be stuck with what was written on the keycaps.

Yep I think that it's quite silly to have to press Fn-F2 ro rename or Fn-F5 to refresh but be able to adjust volume or screen brightness with just F1, F2 etc particularly when many laptops also have dedicated media keys for volume at least and brightness is not something that you change every few minutes. Dell's (at least a studio 17 has) have a setting in the BIOS to swap it back to original sane settings.

You can't "play" with dvorak, you commit whole hog. Typing is all about muscle memory, and playing will never get you to that point.

As a "C" programmer (and mac user) I prefer the US keyboards to the UK ones, mainly because if I'm in bootcamp I can create "#" characters naturally rather than having to use Ctrl+Alt+3, I hardly ever use the £ sign.

Adrian

I agree. The point you make is exactly why I haven't done much towards it.

I think I would probably just start learning Chinese instead, it seems a lot more achievable.

Good luck, Bruno!

I do have a copy of Windows 3.2 if you need it.

I have a copy of Windows 2000 in Traditional Chinese. None of that commie pinko simplified crap...

You're welcome to it.

PgUp/PgDn key cluster's not right.



Yes.



As Bruno points out, the UK keyboard actually has different key layout. Relative to a US keyboard, the backslash moves from above Enter to between Left-Shift and Z; the # symbol is on a key next to the Enter key (Shift+3 gets you a £).



This doesn't make any sense. On a real UK keyboard, # gets its own key.

Yes....but UK mac keyboards don't, infact you won't even see the # symbol anywhere, you have to know that it's on the "3" key. (Alt+3 in Mac OS and Ctrl+Alt+3 in Windows)

Hence why as a C programmer I prefer US mac keyboards.

Adrian

It does if you are using a UK Mac keyboard, which doesn't have a dedicated # key (or a key with a # symbol on it at all).

Wow. That sucks. Does it have double-quote on Shift+2, etc.? I can only find pictures of what look like US mac keyboards.

Use ??=

Double quote is near the return key shared with the apostrophe. 2 is the @ and euro symbol.

Adrian

Here's a full-sized (wired) UK Mac keyboard. Open the image in a new tab or window to see the full size (~900 pixels wide)



The PgUp cluster is correct and it still has an extra key between the left shift and z, though different glyphs. There are also a number of other changes making this distinctly different than the previously posted UK keyboard.

BTW, what are the symbols on the key below the ESC used for?

Those seem to be the 'plus minus' and 'paragraph' symbols. Not used all that frequently. The paragraph symbol I used most frequently in legal documents. The 'plus minus' symbol is used even less.

Since it wasn't (originally) immediately clear, I'm talking about the Mac keyboard below.

To me it would seem like a good move to standardize (at least for the UK) on the US layout with minor keycap changes. For instance in the UK you'd place the £ up top at number along with # - and you'd type them with inverse modifiers compared to a US layout. Shift and Option in Mac OS. Similarly I suppose for the € which requires Shift+Option+2 in the US layout. It can be swapped with ™ which only requires Option.

I really can't stand that janky return/enter key on the Apple UK keyboard.

To me it would seem like a good move to standardize (at least for the US) on the UK layout with minor keycap changes.

...

I really can't stand that janky return/enter key on the Apple US keyboard.

You do know that I wasn't trying to single out all UK keyboards in general. I'm talking about production for other countries in Europe as well and Apple products mostly. As you can see from the attached image, their UK keyboard isn't very much like the UK keyboards elsewhere and in fact doesn't contain so many changes from the US keyboard that they couldn't use it as a base for that country.

Besides, you can't call a rectangle janky. It's next to as simple a shape as you can make. Clean.

I normally wouldn't recommend US-anything, but the standard Mac keyboard is quite clean in line. No key spans more than a single row. Like-modifiers are the same size on the left as they are on the right. The physical number of keycaps is suitable to be relabeled for multiple locales.

I do notice that Apple are using the same key layout as found on the UK keyboard for most European countries. I thought there was even more key variation here (not keycap labeling, but physical key placement). I hope I'm not offending anyone by considering the UK as part of Europe.

Not paragraph (¶), but section(§). Also, FYI, '¶' is known as a pilcrow.

You're correct, of course.

Been looking into this a little more, seems the modern setup is mostly a difference in standards organizations. The full keyboard layout article had quite a bit more information on the differences. US layout is an ANSI standard, while the UK one is an ISO standard. I'm not finding much on the history though. The ANSI layout seems to be derived from the common typewriters, but I'm not finding a similar link for the ISO side.

The Apple differences are also strange. In the US, a PC and Mac keyboard is nearly identical, with the main difference being a swap of where the alt and command/windows keys are.

I definitely prefer the larger enter/return key on UK keyboards as I tend to hit that with the side of my little finger as opposed to pressing it straight on with the tip. Not sure it would be as easy for me if it was only on one row of keys.

This is the kind of huge return key I used to use back in the day... Although my keyboard didn't look like it had been recently run through a mud pit like the one in the picture.

I think that style enter key is a hold over from certain electric typewriter keyboards.



Here is something google found.
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb03.htm

I expect that the key layout is largely based on IBM's PC, XT, AT, and Extended AT keyboard layouts. For whatever reason, they designed the UK Extended AT keyboards (in '86) to have the same basic layout that UK PC keyboards have now, and the same is true with US keyboards.

Interestingly, having a backslash/vertical-bar key between 'Z' and Shift was a feature of the PC and XT keyboards.

Makes sense - if there is an American (US) National Standard, and an International Standards Organisation worldwide global standard, of course the American national one wins...

Umm, but the keyboard being used in Europe (whether or not it is an ISO standard) was created in the US for US computers. It's on Wikipedia in the link Tom posted and it's in the vast document Glenn linked, multiple times.

What we have here are simply multiple iterations that at some point maintained divergent paths. Because IBM and others weren't above ping-ponging back and forth between the various designs over the course of the early years.

Looks like this may be it Glenn, mostly appears to be IBM trying different layouts. Makes sense to me, with how involved they were with the early personal computer market, along with the electronic typewriters.

(and sorry about the thread derail, origins of certain keyboard setups have interested me for a while, mostly due to appreciating the modern Mac setup of modifier keys.)

For Roger's initial question, still not really sure what to suggest. The main issue seems to be full sized function keys. The closest seems to be the Logitech UK offerings.

Here's hitting all your points except for a variation on the PgUp/PgDn cluster.

http://www.wireless-computing.com/products/wireless-desktop-keyboardmouse-R18/

But it's US-style layout.

I point out the lip just under the cursor keys. A good palm rest would be needed.

You might want to try the GeekHack forums. They are keyboard aficionados. While the site is mostly geared towards mechanical keyboards, I bet there's someone there that will know about what you want.

Oh, also, how about a previous-generation Apple wireless keyboard? There are going to be some minor variations in the layout, but it might work for you.

Bitt, the keyboard is the Apple Wireless Keyboard Pro and I believe it's three generations back. It seems like you can still get it through third-party resellers. At least the US layout version. It also appears to be the only thing I've seen that actually hits every single point. Which is surprising.

Look at that... Here's a UK version on eBay UK (@ £23 plus postage):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Apple-Bluetooth-Wi...c#ht_1291wt_907

I still use mine, it's the best keyboard I've ever had, although before I had this I was still using an old Cherry one that came with a 1989 Olivetti server.

Cheers

Cris

Cherry, good you mentioned that, it made me remember this.

Google for G83-6104 Business Keyboard Wait that has a cord, never mind.

But this is wireless. Still has the smaller function keys though.

What you want is available. The trick is to find someone who will sell just one.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/332323783/wireless_keyboard.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/345365836/2_4G_Wireless_Keyboard.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/407736367/2_4G_wireless_standard_keyboard.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/342342489/Hottest_wireless_keyboard_mouse_combo_SY.html

Damn, if I had made that Hong Kong trip I could have probably scored a few samples.

http://www.dinodirect.com/vol-2-4ghz-wir...&DinoDirect

Here it is.

Really? The Apple keyboard has pretty lousy tactility. It's like pushing your finger into wet mush. At least there's a decent amount of travel, and there's a curve to the key layout.

None of those has a UK layout.

Somehow I missed that UK layout was a requirement.

Suggest googling images for "wireless keyboard uk layout" Scan the images and checking web pages to see if a lead can be found.

http://www.priceinspector.co.uk/d/349813...-compare-prices

ok?


http://cpc.farnell.com/trust/16594/wireless-keyboard-mouse/dp/CS18107

You didn't read the fine print... Those keyboards are shown actual size. You have to type on them with toothpicks.

Nice google-fu, not only did you pull up UK wireless keyboards, but they seem to be the same brand (ODM/OEM) as the previous US versions.

Searching google images was the trick.

Still not UK layout.

Here's a wireless keyboard with proper UK layout. It even has media keys. I suspect that it might not meet your "doesn't suck" requirement, though.

Is this a proper UK keyboard layout?

The exact same image I linked to earlier? Yeah.

http://www.kevblog.co.uk/156384/Advent_multimedia_wireless_keyboard_and_mouse/

Here is one with that layout. Haven't found one for sale.

Good find. Here's another: Esonic TDKS109.