Well we know know what is comming next. For those who missed it, heres the details:

Visitors to Comdex will have seen the prototype of our next production model. It's the good old empeg that you all know and love, but with some extra bells and whistles.. First is on-board 10BaseT ethernet, which will be offered as an option on a special edition model aimed at developers. Then there's an extra 4Mb of RAM, giving 12Mb as standard, and a front panel control (gradiated rotary with push function). The display is unchanged although there's an LCD interface inside, for which we have no plans at the moment. Red display panels will be available (we finally found one that works with IR). The tuner has been removed from inside the player - instead we've created an external tuner interface, for which we will produce an AM/FM/RDS module initially, with DAB planned for the future. A cell phone muting input is provided, and the wiring loom has moved to a standard ISO connector. The grounding leads are nolonger required, and all filters are integral to the player and/or wiring loom.

I saved the best til last - we've licenced some very sophisticated voice recognition technology and fitted a microphone input. Proper nouns (e.g. artist/track names etc) can be taught to the system via the PC software, so you can simply tell the empeg what you want to listen to and it will deliver.


I am very excited to hear the new features, as this will add so many new possibilities to the player. It should allow a remote web based control on the player like I currently have for playing MP3's off my Linux server to my amp here at home. It will definitly be interesting to see what programmers do with an ethernet interface.

Out of curiosity, what is the external radio tuner? Is it a seperate box that will have to be hidden, or simply a heavially shielded box that sits inside the new unit?

Also, anyone from Comdex get any pictures of the prototype? I'd love to see what it looks like. (/me kicks himself for not being able to find decent hotel accomidations to be able to go to this Comdex)

---

Reg 1640, 6gb Blue empeg-car mark 1. SN unknown

Great! i am envious already! Of course I hope development wont be stopped on our models :)

Empeg Kicks Ass
S/N 00203
http://www.iretro.com

The external tuner is a seperate box, but it will be very small and easily fitted behind the dash somewhere.

The prototype at Comdex looked just like a regular empeg, apart from the back panel. This was because we couldn't get the new front screen in time for the show, although I think there was a display board PCB there showing the new rotary control.

Rob

No, we won't stop development on the old models - most of the circuitry is the same, so a huge majority of the code is common.

The tuner is a faceless box that just needs to be hidden somewhere behind the dash. It's totally controlled by the empeg - you can't tell if you're using an internal or external tuner model.

Hugo

Can you sign me up for one already??, will there be a list as it is now???


TommyE

Will there be an upgrade path made available to current empeg owners, or are we going to have to sell it on ebay to be able to get the new one?

Pretty please, 100meg RJ45! 10baseT is slower than USB! It would be nice if it was used as a transport for getting mp3 onto the unit, as well as being 'for developers'.

Regards
Simon

Awaiting delivery... #5833

new screen? what will the new front entail? color display? any tidbits for us to whet out appetites with? i second the question about a new registering que. if there is a new one, i want in :). will the next newsletter contain more info about what the new model consists of?

i guess it is good that i couldn't afford an empeg when i was offered...

jeremy

oh, i wish i wish i had an empeg...

I definitely want to be on the upgrade list as early as possible too :)

Still glad I had the money to get the Mark 1 - it's been a blast so far, and it can only get better!

Geoff
---- -------
Reg No. 554, s/n 00064 - It's mine I tell you.... all mine :)

Sorry, the design is now fixed. 100Mbit ethernet isn't really possible for a few reasons:

- Bus bandwidth. Though there are one or two chips which do 100mbit on an ISA bus (the SA1100 has a fast ISA bus - faster than standard ISA, but not PCI).
- Space. The chips that do hook up to our bus require external RAM (etc) for 100mbit. There really is no room.
- Approvals. 100mbit is a major headache as far as emissions is concerned. Yes, we could do several board revisions and try and optimise this, but for an option which isn't even going to be shipped on the majority of players, it's not worth the expense.

10mbit is pretty quick - I think we were getting >700kb/sec. Remember the drives don't have DMA, so disk rates are limited (2mb/sec-ish). 100mbit would just saturate the bus. Remember this isn't a server PC, it's a car radio :)

Hugo

The new screen is basically the same but with a rotary control on the right (which has a pushbutton action too). We also added a display dimmer with 256 levels.

Hugo

There won't be a seperate registration queue. Existing queue positions will be honoured, and there will be a preferential route for existing owners, although the details haven't been finalised yet.

As Rob said, this hasn't been fixed yet. There won't be a "trade-in" path, but there will be a discount to existing owners if they want a new one. You'll have to sell your player to one of your friends who have been drooling over it ;)

The old model is not going to be unsupported though - we have no plans to stop doing releases for it. It still has the same CPU & the same power (in fact, the old model has 2 IDE busses, the new one only one - ie you need a custom 2-drive cable), the same DSP, the same display.

Hugo

No trade in :(

> As Rob said, this hasn't been fixed yet. There won't be a "trade-in" path, but there will be a discount to existing owners if they want a new one. You'll
> have to sell your player to one of your friends who have been drooling over it ;)

Hmm. Too bad all my friends are college kids that barely have enough money for food, let alone a 1200$ car stereo.

I was kinda banking on the fact that there would be some kind of a trade-in opportunity. Of course, not a even swap, but couldn't you guys use the parts off of the trade-in units in building new ones or something? ;) I just have been waiting for the empeg for almost a year now, finally got mine, and 2 weeks later find out that there will be a newer, better one released very soon... Makes me kinda disappointed that I got involved so early and felt privelaged by getting one of the first units (especially since it was already outdated when I got it)...

:-(

PS: don't get me wrong, I love the empeg. I've loved it from the minute I received it.

(O|||||O)
Q: 0596 S/N 00246 6GB Blue

Will there be an option for the rotary dial on the left? We drive on the left side in the U.S. (Hope that doesn't sound to picky!)

We can't re-use parts - these things aren't made on the kitchen table, they're constructed by robots on a fully automated surface mount production line! :-)

I don't think you'll have much trouble finding buyers for secondhand players, though.

The alternative to us releasing an improved player now is... not to release one! It doesn't make any sense for us to hold back the technology, and most people realise that continuous improvements are a fact of life in the technology market. We started shipped the current release in August, and the next release will start to ship in March - seven months is a long time in technology terms.

Please don't get the idea that the current players will become scrap - just because Intel release a faster processor every few months doesn't mean that last years models are now useless. We will continue to fully support our existing products, with much on-going development being common to both models.

Rob

A suggestion/request for the Mk II...

Firm up what the connections between the docking bay and the unit can/should/would-ever be, and use that.

The logic I am thinking of here is to make it work in such a way that I could remove the Mark II unit from my car, open up the box to my Mark III unit (down the road) and insert it into the same chassis, giving the new chassis I received from the Mk III to whoever I sell the MkII to.

I understand the connections, etc, are changing on the MkII unit, so if you go THIS route, then future upgrades won't require professional reinstallations, reducing the upgrade cost for users and increasing the chance of people doing it. :)

If this was already planned, then please feel free to bitch-slap me at your convenience. :)

I've got to say, I am disappointed with this news. I understand the motivations for imporving the unit, but after shipping so few of mark 1? I am feeling less fortunate that I was #1249 in the queue.

I sincerely hope that you do honor mark 1 customers with software support. The way these things usually work is that you won't forget about us until you've shipped a ton of mark 2's, and then all of a sudden, making the interface on mark 1 operate smoothly will fall by the wayside due to simple economics and resource constraints.

Sounds to me like the Empeg was shipped a few months too soon.

Gosh, my computer takes a year, but my Empeg is obsolete after a couple months.

I think it's a little melodramatic to say that your empeg is obsolete!

The new model is essentially the same product. We had to make some changes to the main board because the current one is far too inconvenient to manufacture, what with many through hole components and complex wiring looms. Whilst we were about it, it made sense to act on suggestions from clients (as well as a few ideas of our own) and add in some extra features.

Why would our clients make hardware-related suggestions if it was not expected that we would produce new models?

If we were dropping support for the current model then I would say that you would have a right to be dissapointed (to say the least) - but we're not! The new model is the SAME product with a few enhancements, so if we add a new visual or user interface feature to one, the same code will run on the other.

Software updates will be released simultaneously for both revisions.

In any case, it's not accurate to say that the Mk 1 has been superseded within a couple of months. The product as you see it today was finalised in January, but a series of production difficulties delayed shipping to August. The new model has only just been finalised (we got a prototype just before Comdex and hand assembled it - no mean feat for a 99% surface mount board) and will start shipping around March.

Even the very final clients to purchase a Mk 1 will have about four months to enjoy it before anyone gets to own a Mk 2. I'm sure most of them will continue to enjoy their players for years to come!

I have to say, though, that this is the first time anyone ever complained that we shipped too soon :-)

Rob

We always try and predict the future, but every time we find a connector (and finding the connector for the MkII took a specialist in the field about 3 months...) we use all the pins :)

The MkII has a 24-way connector (MkI was 16). 5 of these are for the external tuner - which we hope to offer a DAB option for - and the others are microphone, accessory/lights on sense and mobile phone mute (which can be used as CTS on the dockable serial, allowing things like Ricochet with brain-damaged flow control to work correctly).

We do hope to stay with the same connector. We've had to buy thousands of them to make the price even vaguely reasonable. Everything but the audio now goes to an ISO connector, which means fitting should be quite a bit easier.

Hugo

Any possibility of connecting the new external radio to the Mark I units, e.g., through the aux inputs? The radio in the Mark I is its only disappointing feature, IMHO. Offering us early adopters an external radio at a decent discount would certainly be looked upon as a friendly gesture.

-- Roger

S/N 00205, 10 Gb, blue

This is a possibility, but unfortunately you'd lose RDS - the mk2's radio feeds in at MPX (ie L+R+RDS) level, not just left/right. You'd also use your external serial port to control it.

But yes, this is a possibility. We're not done yet with the mk1 radio software though, at some point we should be doing a full align on it which will improve the quality of the signal when the car is moving.

Hugo

...speaking of radio; I thought it was kind of interesting - I had to do w/o the antena amplifier in my car - simply WAAAY too much bleeding.. And surprisingly, I'm receiving the same stations as I was w/ my old radio.. only a little bit worse quality on some of the weaker stations..

I don't even know where my antenna is at! my car doens't have a visible antenna (honda accord '99) - what did they do, incorporate it into the car?:)had to remove my antenna amplifier the very next day after putting it in.. Even as it is, RDS signal from a local station (103.7) leaks over to 105.3...
-mark


...i'm so glad I was an early adopter w/o the privilage of getting a tradeup incentive

Any chance we can see some digital pics of this? It would be cool to see an Empeg unit in the middle of production.


We can't re-use parts - these things aren't made on the kitchen table, they're constructed by robots on a fully automated surface
mount production line! :-)

Errr, there will be a tradeup incentive. MkI owners will get a discount on the new model - it's not fixed yet how much, but it will be preferential both in terms of when you get the unit and pricing.

As we've said, we're not leaving MkI's unsupported, as the MkII has almost everything in common. The only thing we're not doing is taking MkI's back in part-exchange: it's easier for you to sell them to drooling friends than it is for us to have a large number of units back here :)

Not wanting to labour the point, but as Rob said it will be 3-4 months from when the last MkI ships to when the MkII ships. Your unit is still exactly what you originally paid for, and most other companies (Apple, etc) wouldn't give you any discount on a new model even if you bought it the day before the new model came out: things move on. Either we keep up or fall behind - I'm sure you'd prefer us to keep up.

Hugo

We have got some home video of this, all we have to do is find someone with a video in card.... hang on, I've got one now (I didn't at the time). I'll just have to find the tape :)

Hugo

Curious - you are the first person to mention this, but I am observing very similar behaviour from the radio. I can actually disconnect the antennna and with the empeg in the sled, I can also still receive at about the same signal strength! Almost as if the empeg is receiving without the antenna connection at all; the seperate antenna amp has made very little difference whatsoever.

Anyone else observed this?

Rob, is there any likelihood whatsoever of a retro-fit of any of the new features to a Mk1? Have you considered the possibility of fixed price hardware upgrades such as the replacement of the display panel for the new one with the rotary control? I can understand the real practicality/costs of this sort of work (which would probably be quite high), but I for one would be interested in the possibility of paying for a subset of the Mk2 features as a retro-fit carried out by the factory - the display control panel being the most interesting.

I was under the impression that there was an expansion slot in the Mk1 (I could be horribly wrong here), so is there any scope for a memory upgrade/piggyback board for ethernet to the Mk1?

Finally, have all the options for the on-board radio been exhausted? For example, has the software tuning/discrimination got any improvement left? Is there a known source to radio problems which could be fixed with a hardware change as a fixed-price modification?

I for one would be interested in this kind of piece-meal, fixed price upgrades idea if you were to offer it as there is absolutely no way my spouse would tolerate me buying another empeg - what about you other Mk1 owners? Would you be interested in a Mk1a?

I'm afraid right now I'm a technology manufacturer's dream come true... no wife, no current girlfriend, disposable income, reasonably large credit limit, a cavalier disregard for things like food, etc... Basically, I'm game for buying whatever new technology appears. As long as the discount option is good enough, I'm considering myself in the queue for a Mk 2 already. I'm just wondering what to do with the Mk 1 - might build it into a hifi component if I can't sell it...

Having said that, I can see where a clear, modular upgrade path would be a good idea though - it has pretty much kept the IBM PC alive for almost 2 decades (make up your own mind if that's a good thing or not )

Geoff
---- -------
Reg No. 554, s/n 00064 - It's mine I tell you.... all mine :)

There's a possibility that the new display board could be offered as an upgrade, however the dimmer wouldn't work so the only gain would be the rotary control and slightly nicer looking front panel.

There's no expansion connector on the Mk.1 - there are pads on the PCB for additional RAM chips but these are surface mount and I doubt we could offer realistically priced upgrades. It would take at least an hour for a very skilled technician to fit the chips, not including stripping, rebuilding and testing the player.

We haven't exhausted all possibilities with the on-board radio - as Hugo mentioned in another post, there is still some more softwaree tweaking that could improve reception.

It wouldn't surprise me if, around the time that existing owners are offered discount Mk. 2 players, the second hand value of the originals is still high enough to cover most of that cost (maybe all of it). We'll still have several thousand people in the queue with a long-ish wait ahead of them.

Rob

the dimmer would be no loss - the additional useability of the rotary knob to control the UI would be the thing I am interested in. OK, here's one customer already interested!

I still would be interested in a memory upgrade if it was priced up. Even at GBP 100 an hour, surely this would still be a couple of hundred if the memory costs were added? I am still interested - how far can the memory be taken out to?

I am far too attached to this box to consider selling it on (this comes as a result of giving her a name - see?) so even expensive upgrades are interesting; it's just new boxes appearing that cause the problem...

Seriously, if you were to look at any ideas for small hardware upgrades made available as factory-only retrofits, in a fixed-price menu of options, I am still sure you would have takers.

I can't believe noone is asking about voice recognition! I don't care about anything else (altho more ram would be sweet), voice recognition will dramatically change the whole unit. No matter how good you make the current interface, it's still going to be a pain to access thousands of tracks with a few buttons. To be able to say what you want, and get it.. I don't care about the radio, I don't care about any twirly knobs on the front. I want to talk to my empeg :)

Will the current units be able to use voice recognition?

Kind of a moot point for me anyway, there's no way I'm going to be able to resist a new model with a discounted price :)

(I can't believe noone is asking about voice recognition! )

Probably because these things normally tend not to work :-) so people don't care (maybe). I don't, at least.

I think the MK2 is gonna be great. And i think it's good empeg is telling us about their plans. Even though the 'old' unit is not sooo old. Now i got a excuse to use one at home, and one in the car. I just have to win that lottery next Saturday. Of course i will. In my dreams...

Jo

I'm also very interested in the voice recognition - if it works reliably, this will be the most outstanding new feature.

As I'm not sure if I can afford a Mk 2, and reading about the idea of a 'Mk 1a', would you at empeg consider making a little box with a microphone and a tiny amp in it that could be plugged into the empeg's aux input? Then, with a small change in software that would allow the voice recognition software to act upon the aux input signal, we Mk 1 owners would also benefit from the newly developped features. Please!?

Daniel

So will my low number get preferential treatment (after those already owning Ver. 1 of course)?


Queue # 170 or was it 174??? Anyways I couldn't afford it then, I can now, but I think I will wait a couple more months!

Probably because these things normally tend not to work :-) so people don't care (maybe). I don't, at least.

Trainable Voice Reco works great, in general. It's much easier for a computer to examine two sound files for similarities than it is to break up the sound file into utterances(syllables) and try to figure out exactly, word for word, what the user said. I wouldn't be surprised if the MK2 Voice Reco worked perfectly for its user within a few days.
So can the microphone be retrofitted, too?

_~= Dearing =~_
"WAY too happy about having #99."

...I don't receive any reception w/ the antenna unplugged totally (...as in when it's in my house) but definately too much reception with the antenna amplifier...

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

In fact, the MkI can go to 16Mb (the MkII is limited to 12, for various reasons including the fact that pads on the bottom of the board caused the manufacturers problems with the flow soldering machine making shorts).

We could offer RAM upgrades, yes, but if we did it'd have to be a very ordered process (ie, so we could do them all at once as opposed to spreading it over time).

The display upgrade is a possibility - we did engineer the new display to be compatible. Wouldn't be desparately cheap though, but at least it's a possibility.

Hugo

Regarding the memory upgrade, first we would need to find a contractor willing to take it on. Then, we have to consider the reaction we'll get if we tell Mk.1 owners that it will cost them 200 quid plus shipping for an extra 4Mb of RAM! Some of you will understand the issues and go for it, but others will be very vocal in their displeasure.

I'm not sure the extra memory will be all that useful anyway - it'll give longer caching times between disk spin-ups but the main use for it on the Mk.1 is the voice recognition software, which definitely won't be available at an upgrade for older players.

Rob

Sorry, the voice recognition will definitely be a Mk.2 only feature. It uses additional hardware (an ADC and microphone preamp) that cannot be retro fitted to older players, and it will need the additional memory of the Mk.2. In addition there are licencing issues.

Rob

The voice recognition can't use AUX - this doesn't go to the CPU. In theory it could be streamed over the serial (pretty darn near 230,400bps as it needs 11025Hz mono 16 bit). It's unlikely we'll make a box to do this, but if someone else did we could most likely support it.

The voice recognition is trainable (for your playlist names) - it isn't syllable based.

Hugo
(Wanting to have a Star Trek set so he can say "Computer!" in a scottish accent and get a response)

> Probably because these things normally tend not to work :-)

We certainly hope this won't be the case :) The software that we have licenced is extremely impressive, and we are working closely with the designers of the CPU that we use to ensure that our implementation is ground breaking.

You should know by now that if we do something we don't want to do it by halves!

:-)

Rob

.. yeah a startrek set would be cool...
well in fact i think you guys should make the whole voice recognition software as configurable as possible.. so users can generate their own 'user interfaces' for voice recognition (empeg responds over speakers with confirmation/wishing me a good day/asking me to repeat a command if it didnt understood etc)...

i dont think you should only make playlist names trainable... what about volume controls for example.. i like the idea of beeing able to tell my empeg to lower the volume or so...

will the recognition software be able to understand my command even though the music is playing .. ie.. subract the empeg output from the audio signal the micro receives ?

It would be VERY nice to be able to train the MKII to mute whenever it hears MY cell phone ring!

The MkII has a cellphone mute input already.

Hugo

After existing owners, products will be shipped in registration order, starting with those clients that defered the first time.

This whole process won't take as long as before - we're manufacturing 1000 units a month and we have new shipping arrangements to ensure that we can actually process and support this many orders.

Rob

My cell phone doesn't have any inputs. It is hand-held only. Can the MKII microphone be trained to mute when it hears the cadence of my phone ringing?

It's an interesting idea, but I don't know enough about the internals of the recognition engine we're using to know if it's trainable to any sound, or if it's too specialised to human voices. I know it does quite a bit of preprocessing...

Hugo

I suspect that if the MKII has a "mute" function that the VR can be programmed to run when I say "shut the h*ll up!", then it could be as easily trained to hear the warble of my handheld phone as it is to my voice.

I hope this is the case. I am anxiously awaiting my turn to buy an Empeg!

In fact, the MkI can go to 16Mb

You can put me on the list of people interested in more RAM and partial HW upgrades. I don't care about the FM reciever or voice recognigition, and even at a discount I'm not sure I'd want to swallow the cost of a second unit in 4 months. (besides, there's something cool about owning a first generation player.) More RAM would be nice for less cache thrashing on my 256kbit MP3s and a dial for quicker navigation would be stellar. Ethernet would also be nice... but my desire for that will be sated when linux USB works - I just want the speed.


--- Carl

Great. Yes, i know you do things right! Just there are some folks out there (like me) who likes to feel music, so at this point NO voice recognition will work ever :-)

Seriuosly, if that feature makes it in, please do us one favor, i have a handsfree set in my car. I would, of course, use the mic of the handfree for voice-recognition as well. So there should be like a loop-through kind of setup so i can stick the mic into the empeg and from there to the handsfree kit or vice versa. I definately don't want to have TWO mic's, sets of wires, etc, in my car.

Do you think that is/will be possible ? TA, jo

>We certainly hope this won't be the case :) The software that we have licenced >is extremely impressive, and we are working closely with the designers of the >CPU that we use to ensure that our implementation is ground breaking.

>You should know by now that if we do something we don't want to do it by halves!

But some of us have set them up to run as servers :-)

Anyone want to run a mud on their stereo?

David

Appologies if these are covered elsewhere in this thread but I am starting to get lost in it!

Will there be an easy way to get all my mp3s and playlist into a mkII without reloading it all again??

There was talk in here somewhere of US users requesting the rotary control to be on the left. I assume from this that it is planned to be on the RHS? Personally I see this as a bad move for those who drive on teh RHS (of the car not the road!) as the LHS of the unit is easier to access whilst not obscuring the display with your body.

My thoughts anyway!

Phil

I'd also personally prefer the rotary knob on the left side. You at empeg will run into a problem with the knob on the right side, which probably will sound ridiculous to you and most of the other readers. But I did software design for about 10 years for Rohde & Schwarz (signal generators, measurement equipment etc), and most of their devices have a rotary knob on the right side, and believe me, we had endless discussions... the problem occurs when you use the knob to scroll through a vertical menu or list. If the knob is on the left side, the way it'll have to work is obvious: turning it clockwise will move the cursor/marker down, turning it anti-clockwise will move it up. Now, if the knob is on the right side, exactly half of the people using it will swear the only correct and intuitive way is to have a clockwise rotation move the cursor up (because the left edge of the knob which is closest to the display moves up), while the other half are absolutely convinced that it has to be the other way round. We couldn't solve it, we ended up making it configurable after customr complaints... the only way to get around that is really to put the knob on the left side of the display.

As I said, this is going to sound ridiculous...

This seems to give credibility to the drivel I wrote - thanks ;-)

I knew there had to be a more 'technical' reason rather than the 'yer hand gets in the way' arguement I came up with.

Coherent theories can't be expected at this time of night

I posted this idea origanally, and am glad others have considered it in depth as I have.

How about it Rob,Hugo?

Well, as a british colony here in new zealand we drive on the left side of the road with RHD vehicles (fortuantly most of our cars come from japan nowdays so the indication and washer controls are on the correct side unlike the poor british).

Anyway regardless of all other considerations i think it's would be best to have the volume on the left hand side for RHD cars. With it on the left your arm just stretches straight out to adjust the knob, with it on the right hand side you have to have your arm in a half bent-avoiding the steering wheel position (in my car at least).

What about peopl like me that bought theres on Ebay. Will I be with the
owners in the que or will I have to use my que number.

Brad Graff
S/N 00247
6 Gig Green

> What about peopl like me that bought theres on Ebay

Interesting point. I don't know, but I'll make sure the issue is discussed before we finalise any offers.

Rob

Well, as a (ex :-) british colony here in new zealand we drive on the left side of the road with RHD vehicles (fortuantly most of our cars come from japan nowdays so the indication and washer controls are on the correct side unlike the poor british).

I started out driving a Mini and now drive a Honda Civic - both have the controls the logical way round for a RHD car given that the former was designed before British car manufacturers disappeared and the latter was made in Japan. The Civic radio has its volume knob on the left but this may just be because it is a European model.

How else can you drive round a roundabout, change gear and flick the indicators at the same time? Hmm, I suppose those of you in the US don't need to do the first two so it doesn't matter. :-)

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

Hehehe, I must laugh, when are you Brits. going to drive on the right side???
(Just kidding) All of Europe, and the US do drive on the right side.
Except for the Aussies, and I guess, some British colonies like india. Hehehe.

An Empeg in Dr.Bombay's 3wheeled motorcycle.hehehe

Sorry for being a bit sarcastic, but I find this left/right this abit amusing!!

TommyE

It would be great to have a Mark II Tuner which was a combination tuner and cassette player. I would scrap my factory installed tuner/cassette if I had an Empeg cooperative alternative that included a cassette. I know that cassettes are a retro technology at this point but mp3 audio books (GRIN) aren't that available yet.

Traci

I'm not going to ask you to offer voice control for the Mark I, but it would be great to have a high quality voice control product for my Linux server. Would you consider offering the voice control product to the broader Linux world?

Traci

hehe, i'd be interested in seeing actual global market share for LHD vs RHD. Until my recent trip to france i thought most of europe was RHD and the americans were the only freaks driving on the LHD.
Still, Britian and the commonwealth japan, korea and the rest of asia vs. America and europe, sounds pretty even to me.

Still, Britian and the commonwealth japan, korea and the rest of asia vs. America and europe, sounds pretty even to me.

The market share for LHD is far greater than for RHD. For a start the whole British Commonwealth doesn't drive on the left (e.g. Canada). Also, the car market in the US dwarfs that of Europe. I believe that the UK and Eire are the only countries in Europe to currently drive on the left although Sweden and possibly some others went through an overnight switch in the sixties.

My mind seems over-conditioned to driving on the left. I got thoroughly confused even as a passenger on our recent trip to Las Vegas for Comdex.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I love this kind of speak, it has to bring a smile to your face!

The question I have is, why does the Mk1 have its buttons on the left side?
Was the knob changed to the right because of componentry or for interface?

Just a light hearted question.

Any input Hugo,Rob or should I say output!

Will wait for Mk2 no matter what,
Mike

The voice control isn't ours: it's licenced. It's also more along the lines of appliance control than something like ViaVoice or DragonDictate - great for non-perfect environments, but not really usable for controlling a linux box.

Hugo

The Mk.1 has the buttons on the left because, errr, well it just happened that way! Maybe Hugo & Patrick did some research, I don't know, but that's how it was :-)

The Mk.2 still has the buttons on the left and the rotary control on the right because we want the panels to be compatible (put a blanking gromet in the hole for the rotary switch and you have a panel suitable for a Mk.1 - useful if people want to change colour in the future).

Rob

The question I have is, why does the Mk1 have its buttons on the left side?

The buttons are on the left for a reason, which is that the vacuum neck of the VFD panel, used in manufacturing, is on the
bottom right. To get the buttons in the required diamond pattern, without risk of fouling the neck during assembly, which
could break the seal and therefore ruin the VFD, we had no choice but to put the buttons on the left. We couldn't put the
display on the PCB the other way up, because the 60V PSU components had to be as close to the top of the case as
possible to allow the main board to fit.

Was the knob changed to the right because of componentry or for interface?

The rotary control is on the right as a result of the buttons being on the left. That was the only place it would
fit!

We aren't going to make a reversed design display board for the American market, because this would increase
expense enormously. We'd have to mirror the PCB layout, flip the display upside down (see above for the problems
this would cause), rewrite the software to scan the display backwards and upside down (admittedly this is the
easiest part), and in general do a lot of fiddling around. Not to mention stocking two different PCBs, making them
in different quantities, needing reversed plasticwork, etc, etc.

To be honest, having tried operating the rotary control in both a left-hand-seated and right-hand-seated position, it
doesn't actually cause any problems that I can see, or anyone else who's tried it for that matter. Your arm doesn't
obscure the display, unless the empeg is mounted practically on the floor. If it's in a normal dashboard position,
i.e. approximately between the bottom and the middle of the steering wheel in height, plus or minus a few inches,
your arm tends to approach the controls from the side and below, rather than above.

I don't see its position as a major problem, honestly.

Patrick

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

As has been said elsewhere, adding the new display board is possible. The ethernet isn't really doable as an
upgrade, since it's a complex piece of circuitry that has a LOT of interfacing requirements to the rest of the
main board hardware. In theory it might be possible to design a small board that would connect to the IDE
bus and give 10baseT, but the cost would be so high I don't see it happening, unless someone out there
wants to do one, or I get really really bored and win the lottery at the same time!

The RAM upgrade is straightforward enough to do, if you happen to be able to hand-solder fine pitch
SMD components and have the parts available. It also requires new flash code to enable the new chips.
It is just possible I might offer this as a service (not official empeg policy, note), at some point, when
I'm not so busy designing new empeg hardware, but it wouldn't be stunningly cheap. I'd have to sort out
the warranty implications with Hugo, and source the correct RAM in small quantities, which is
surprisingly difficult to do, but it might happen if enough people need it.

If you would be interested in this, email me at pca@empeg.com, so I can gauge demand.

Patrick.

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

Well, after reading nearly 100 messages on the new unit, I must say I am impressed. Just a few questions.

Nobody asks about cost.. with these new features I assume price will go up, but how much?

And somewhere I read that there will only be one ide controller.. does this mean no more adding hard drives as in the mark1 units? If so, is it possible to replace the HD it will ship with with a larger one by ourselves?

And somewhere I read that there will only be one ide controller.. does this mean no more adding hard drives
as in the mark1 units?

No. The mk1 units had two IDE channels, and the drives were both set up as masters, one on each. The mk2
units, mainly for space reasons, only have one channel, but two drives can still be used as master/slave. It just
requires the correct cable.

Patrick.

Opinions expressed in this email may contain up to 42% water by weight, and are mine. All mine.

... and Japan, of course.

IT is possible to replace the HD in the unit with your own one.
You just need to setup the partitions correctly before installing a kernel.upgrade file containing all the player & kernel files.

So how do you set up the partitions??

TommyE

i know that every one will hate me for this but...
is the radio in the empeg or is it going to be a sepret box?....
i read throught the messages but i cant find were it says and when dose the mk2 come out there are too many diffent dates and i was woundering if any one really knew

It will be in a seperate box, with the intention of a DAB tuner being an option at a later date...

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

Maybe my mark-I isn't obsolete but I feel like I'm
missing out on some critical features. Ethernet? A
radio that works? Improved grounding? Who cares
about the other features? I want those and not
being able to get them sounds like I'm being
penalized by buying early.

I have to be a bit skeptical that mark-I customers will
get the same support since I'm not overly thrilled
with the support so far. I waited a long time for
Linux and NT support. I'm still waiting for an open
source loader for Linux. My radio is useless. I can't
use the USB port so the ethernet connection is really
attractive to me. My hard drive died and had to be
replaced. I upgraded to 8c, uploads kept crashing,
and now I can't even get emplode to connect to the
player. I corresponded with one of your guys and
sent some debug output to him but haven't heard
anything aside from my data was useful for a bug
hunt.

Beta software is one thing. That was understood
when I bought my player but beta-fucking-hardware
is another deal entirely.

I'm sorry for griping. My player is pretty cool but not
all is rosy here and I would really like it if there was
some sort of trade-in policy when the new units are
available.

yours, Dean

I understand your complaints. However, look at the bright side. When the Mark2's come out, you can buy one at a discount (they said that the Mark1 owners would get a discount), then you can sell your existing Mark1 on Ebay or something. Depending on how big of a discount it's going to be, you might even be able to make a profit.

Personally I think that Empeg has every reason to offer their early adopters a very attractive discount. Think about it: They're planning on being able to produce 1000 units a month starting next March. In any given month, they'll build several times as many Mark2's as there were total Mark1's. So even if they offered a really huge discount to the Mark1 owners, it would be a very small discount when compared to their total revenues. Especially when you consider the fact that only some of the current owners would take advantage of the discount.

Now, as far as your specific complaints in your post, I have some answers to them. You said you haven't been happy with Empeg's customer service so far. Since I've had a completely different experience (and I've read posts from others who have as well), I have to believe that you're the exception, not the rule.

I feel like I'm missing out on some critical features. Ethernet?

I don't see how Ethernet is a critical feature. The USB port works fine. The Empeg is designed to be a consumer product, and at the moment, home computers come with USB ports by default, and not with ethernet ports. Ethernet may seem critical to you, but if you look at what market Empeg is trying to target, it shouldn't be critical to the unit in the long term.


A radio that works? Improved grounding?

Those are very valid concerns. Personally, the radio is not a big deal to me because I only ever listened to the radio when I got bored of the three CDs I had in the car. But I understand how a better radio is important to many people. The grounding issue is a big one as well. So, Empeg is doing the Right Thing, and solving those problems in the Mark2's. You're upset because you're stuck with a Mark1 that doesn't have those new features.

But think about it. It's like any new technology product: There will always be better hardware available next year. Yeah, I get upset when my friends have better toys than me simply because they bought theirs a few months later. But it's not the fault of the manufacturer when this happens. What would you have the manufacturer do? Not release the new version? Allow all the previous customers trade in their obsolete units? Come on, do you think Sony should offer a trade-in program where you can return your used Sony TV for one of their new TV's just because it's better?


I want those and not being able to get them sounds like I'm being penalized by buying early.

I want some of those things, too, but I bought my unit knowing full well that it still had some rough edges. I knew I was going to be an early adopter. As far as I'm concerned, I'm glad I'm listening to MP3s in my car rather than waiting for next March. To me, it's worth it, and I don't feel penalized in any way.


I'm still waiting for an open source loader for Linux.

They have said repeatedly that they fully intend to publish all of the communication specs as soon as the specs have stopped changing. I've been paying attention to what features they've been talking about implementing, and many of them sound like they would require changes to the specs. I think it's right for them to hold off on publishing that stuff until later. Be patient.


I can't use the USB port so the ethernet connection is really attractive to me.

So ethernet is critical to you because you run NT4 and you won't/can't set up a system that will dual-boot Windows 98? Cripes, I've got friends who format their hard disks and reinstall their operating systems about twice a month. And they do it for much more petty things, like trying to get the latest game to run properly. Getting USB to work is not that tough, you just have to be willing to install Windows 98. And if you're one of the unlucky ones who can't get USB working because of a BIOS or hardware problem with your motherboard... well, that's hardly something you can get mad at Empeg for.


My hard drive died and had to be replaced.

Now that's a bummer, but you can't blame Empeg for that. You're complaining about Empeg's support, but I'll bet that Rob did everything he could to expedite that replacement, right? I'm sure they did the Right Thing.


I upgraded to 8c, uploads kept crashing, and now I can't even get emplode to connect to the player.

I had a problem with crashing uploads, and I had a bug where the player wouldn't connect, too. I solved the crashing-uploads problem by doing all my uploads in small batches and running a memory defragmenter after each one. I have a suspicion (unproven at this time) that there might be a memory leak in Emplode or its serial/usb drivers, causing long synch operations to crash. If so, that bug will exist whether you're a mark1 or a mark2 owner. And when they solve that bug, it will be solved for both the mark1 and mark2 owners, as well.

As far as the player not connecting, mine eventually just fixed itself after several synch attempts (on the USB cable). Maybe you just need to wipe the thing and start over with a fresh database? I'm sure Rob can help you with that, once the holidays and CES are over.

In any case, those problems are purely software issues, and as a Mark1 owner, you will continue to get software updates and bug fixes along with the Mark2 owners.


Beta software is one thing. That was understood when I bought my player but beta-fucking-hardware is another deal entirely.

Honestly, the only thing "Beta" about the hardware that I've seen is the floating-ground issue and the weak radio. Everything else about the unit's hardware seems very solid to me.

Perhaps I missed it while reading through the 80-or-so messages dealing with this thread; forgive me if that's the case.

Operating the Mk I while driving at night has proven difficult; the remote is not contoured and, as a result, I opt for the button cluster. I have a preference for button clusters anyway; storage/placement of remotes is always an issue.

When using the button cluster I have to feel around for the buttons in the cluster to use them because I've got no light to direct me. And, for obvious reasons, I don't want to turn on the overhead light and blind myself just to operate the unit.

I'm curious as to whether backlighting the buttons and the rotary knob has been considered for the Mk II. (i.e. Placement of internal lights in such a way that they shine through whatever display colour you've chosen and provide some light AROUND the buttons. I envision a knob that's both backlit AND has a dim light shining through a word on the pushbutton.)

Just a thought...

-- Bleys


"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

As far as the player not connecting, mine eventually just fixed itself after several synch attempts (on the USB cable). Maybe you just need to wipe the thing and start over with a fresh database?

I don't consider wiping the unit to be a useful way of solving upload/download problems in general and definitely not in this case.

The problem in this particular case is due to failure of the communication between the PC and the empeg-car over the serial cable. Sometimes a request is being sent eight or more times before the unit understands it. There is a maximum retry count of sixteen after which emplode gives up.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I don't consider wiping the unit to be a useful way of solving upload/download problems in general and definitely not in this case.

Of course not. At least, not in a final production unit. But we all realize that Emplode and the Empeg are running beta software at this time, and beta testers have to be prepared for that kind of eventuality. Hopefully not very often, though.


Sometimes a request is being sent eight or more times before the unit understands it. There is a maximum retry count of sixteen after which emplode gives up.

In my case, the reason the unit wasn't responding to the requests was because something had gone wrong with the database in the Empeg. The bootup screen was pausing at a certain line that said something like "Loading music databases". Somehow, the Empeg managed to fix itself and the problem went away. After that, there was no trouble connecting to the unit.

This sort of lighting is hard to achieve without custom moulded buttons - we use off the shelf ones - but as the front panel design isn't yet 100% fixed we're looking at some LEDs around the buttons which should shine through the gaps allowing you to find them more easily.

Hugo

We haven't sold any Beta hardware to clients. The current empeg car player hardware is NOT Beta - I'll confuse the issue the issue and point out that what you currently have is a Mark 4 player and the next public release will be Mark 7.

We test the hardware Beta releases in-house, plus maybe a few local external testers who know exactly what they're getting.

In your post you listed a whole bunch of SOFTWARE problems and then complained about Beta hardware. The only hardware issues you mentioned are the tuner and the hard drive that crashed. You have a point with the tuner, it's not ideal, and in fact it was our original intention to remove it entirely from the next release - at the last minute we came up with the external module idea. The hard drive crashing has nothing to do with our product - we had a small batch of bad drives from Toshiba that died very early in their lives with spin-up problems. We replaced them with a new model and I haven't heard of any of those failing, or for that matter, earlier drives from batches that weren't affected by this manufacturing fault.

With the partial exception of the tuner, the "Mark 2" player is not a bug fix release. It is an update of the current player, with several new features added as a direct consequence of customer suggestions. The "Mark 1" continues to be fully supported because IT IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME PRODUCT - no, really, it is! The vast majority of the codebase is common - any new feature which isn't exclusively related to a new hardware function will apply equally to earlier and later players.

I'm not saying that the Mark 2 isn't a better product - it is. However I'm unimpressed by arguments against progress in order to protect technology investments up until that time. We could have not bothered with the improvements and we would have made just as much money and shipped just as many players - in fact we would have made MORE money because there would have been more "Mark 1" owners willing to upgrade at a later date. Perhaps we shouldn't have made any mention of the updates until the day the new player was released, an event that is still four months away.

I can see where you're coming from, especially as you've been unfortunate in your empeg experience, however from my perspective (influenced as it may be by a residual hangover and prospects of a 19 hour flight tomorrow including 7 hour stop over in Cleveland of all places) I believe we've been responsible - a little unconventional - but fair to our present and future clients.

Rob

A design I worked on a few years back (a telephone dial with opaque buttons) used a transparent, one-piece moulding through which the buttons poked. A limited amount of this "web" moulding was visible around the keys; with careful design to enhance TIR (Total Internal Reflection), a single low-power green LED fed from the phone line (impressive in those days) illuminated a rectangular matrix of some 12 keys plus 4 others a short distance away. The keys remained opaque, but could easily be located in the dark by the peripheral lighting from the TIR web. This is also seen on many other commercial products these days, including Pioneer and Philips car radios.

What about that as a possibility, then? I think I suggested this a few months back in Wish List somewhere if you want to check the thread.

Alternatively, it strikes me that since you are using a perspex front panel, you could use the internal light-carrying capability of the optical cavity within the sheet to illuminate the buttons from the side without affecting the amount of transmitted light through the front panel (going perpendicular to the enclosed TIR path).

I mean, you guys are literally a few hundred metres from the Pilkington glass research centre in Cambridge, and C Uni is a world research centre for optics and light propogation in restricted cavities (optical fibres) - can't you cadge a bit of advice locally?

Although it is rather off the track of your thread (!), here's the successful fix I have used on my radio, which has also sucessfully worked on another Mk1.

I initially made sure that my aerial was properly grounded by removing it, greasing up the bodywork connection points and putting a new, properly soldered connector onto the coax. This may not be necessary for the fix, but I believe actually led to part of my problem.

Looking at the data sheet for the tuner unit indicates it is an extremely sensitive item, and following some advice read on another thread here, I removed my aerial amplifier and reduced the length of my aerial by 50%. Result - clear and precise station tuning, good stereo image, excellent signal strength, faultless RDS operation.

I hope this makes you smile if it works for you

Well said, Rob. Although I think his main complaint is that he feels you should be offering a trade-in policy for the Mark1 owners. Personally, I think such a policy would be unrealistic. You guys aren't even under any obligation to offer an early-adopter's discount on the new units, but you're going to do it anyway. I think that's great.

Perhaps we shouldn't have made any mention of the updates until the day the new player was released, an event that is still four months away.

Brings to mind a Dilbert cartoon... Marketing guy says "I told our clients about all the new features. Now they won't buy the current product because they want the new version instead." Dilbert tells him that the new version won't be ready for another year. Marketing guy realizes that he's just singlehandedly bankrupted the company.

Oh... and what's this "Four Months Away" stuff? I though you said March? :-)

> I understand your complaints. However, look at
> the bright side. When the Mark2's come out, you
> can buy one at a discount (they said that the
> Mark1 owners would get a discount), then you can
> sell your existing Mark1 on Ebay or something.
> Depending on how big of a discount it's going
> to be, you might even be able to make a profit.

Well that's all I want. Some way to get the new
features short of paying full price for a new player.
Ideally they'd take the old one but I can certainly
accept the compromise.

You're right about most of my complaints...but if I
bought electronics from Sony and wanted an upgrade
for the new model I'd be fucked. But they sold something
with a faulty ground and a basically non-functioning
radio you know they'd replace it with the corrected
model.

I hope I can get a discount on a Mark 2 and still sell my
Mark 1 for something.
--

In the meantime all need to do is get emplode to talk to
my player. The player seems happy enough but I do
suspect that the database is corrupted. What's the
easiest way to kill the database? I was hoping that
8d might correct things but starting from scratch may
be quicker.

yours, Dean

I've had a similar problem.
After a number of retries at resyncing with Emplode it eventually fixed itself.
I connected to the unit with the USB and monitored the situation over the serial and a terminal emulator.
Although if you are having problems using USB then this will not be possible for you.

I've found the support offered by Empeg to be faultless.
They have a fast turnround on fixing the units (I stuck in my own HD and knocked a component on the board which eventually failed) and they had it back to me less than 48 hours after I posted it down to them.
The emails are quick and responsive (apart from the odd one where Mike has mailed me the wrong files :-) but he quickly sent a replacement)
Even when they have all been having fun in the US at the trade shows, they have offered and provided support (including new kernels and player software)

So when is Hugo going to be on Tomorrows World with Phillipa Forester?

Phillipa Forester? Phwoar, etc ;)

Hugo

Yes, our Technical Director is an adolescent at heart.

Rob

Are they abandoning the remote? If there are bugs with the voice recognition and no remote....Well you know. Just curious.

You will still get a remote control :-)

Rob