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#309856 - 06/05/2008 17:36 Convince me not to get a MacBook Air...
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on a MacBook Air.

I'm fed up with hauling around a 10 pound Dell monstrosity. I'll be traveling extensively for the next year or two, so I like the idea of a thin, light notebook that I can throw in my backpack and go. I rarely if ever do any gaming, so 1.8 ghz Core 2 Duo seems like plenty of horsepower. The only place it would fall short would be rendering movies, which we'll be doing some of. I think I'm willing to sacrifice some time there for the form factor. The computer would be primarily used for Web development, internet use, office-type apps, and some light video production (3 to 5 minute clips).

Only one USB port does suck, but I think I'll move to bluetooth for most of my peripherals anyway. The most I ever have plugged in is my mobile phone, gps, and maybe a mouse.

Anyone have any convincing reasons to ditch the MacBook Air and go with a MacBook Pro instead?
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~ John

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#309859 - 06/05/2008 17:53 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
The 1280x800 screen would probably kill me.
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Bitt Faulk

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#309860 - 06/05/2008 17:56 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: wfaulk]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Eww. I didn't notice that. I've never liked glossy screens either, so that's two strikes against that screen.
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~ John

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#309862 - 06/05/2008 18:23 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I own one of these with the SSD disk.

Pros:

Reasonable battery life. I've been able to watch just over three hours of MPEG2 (standard-def downloaded from my TiVo) with the screen dimmed before the battery crapped out.

Staggering screen brightness. Brighter than my Apple Cinema HD 23" display. With the brightness cranked even most of the way up, the screen overpowers reflections from the glossy aspect. I hate, hate, hate these damn glossy screens, but on the MBA it's not so bad.


Cons:

Compared to my Thinkpad, the keyboard sucks. There's no nice way to put it. I want back the key feel of my Thinkpad.

The single USB plug is occasionally annoying, but less than you'd think.

I keep forgetting to bring along the damn Micro-DVI dongles. I've showed up in class to teach a lecture and had to race back to my office to get the damn stupid VGA adapter. This is an issue with any Apple laptop, versus other laptops that have a VGA connector built in. I assume I'll get used to this.

My specific MBA has a power-drain problem when it's on standby (discussed in another thread here). Just yesterday I shipped it back to Apple so they can "fix" it. In theory, I'll have it back in a few days and I'll let you know how the repair went. Observation: the telephone support people are actually pretty good. This contrasts with the support moron I once got when I called Motorola for help with their synchronization software for the RAZR. What was I thinking?

The screen resolution is great for me, but then my old machine was 1024x768. The MBA just barely, barely fits in a coach-class seat with the tray table down and the seat in front of you reclined all the way. If it were any bigger, it wouldn't work.

Surprising annoyance: in Apple's desire to round off the corners to make the MBA look maximally svelt, you end up with an edge comparable to the edge of a wooden clipboard. Load a clipboard with enough paper to reach three pounds and carry it in one hand and you'll find it starts cutting off the circulation in your fingers. My old Thinkpad, with its clunky square edges, did better at this. My even older HP Omnibook 510 was the best, because they rubberized and rounded off the edge, but it had plenty of room to spread the weight.

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#309863 - 06/05/2008 18:34 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: DWallach]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31601
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Compared to my Thinkpad, the keyboard sucks. There's no nice way to put it. I want back the key feel of my Thinkpad.


The new macs and the new wireless keyboards all have that same chicklet kind of keyboard, right?

I got one of those super-tiny-mini wireless keyboards for my Mac Mini hooked up to the TV set, because it takes up so much less space on the coffee table than the prior one did. I agree the chicklet keys aren't that great in terms of the feel. If it were my main axe, that keyboard would quickly frustrate me. It's OK for using for the TV set though.

I think the reason the chicklet keys suck is:

- They could have made the keys bigger (i.e., the keys could all touch each other like a normal keyboard does) but they didn't.

- They don't have scooped tops like normal laptop/desktop keyboards have. They have flat tops. This feels funny, and the subtle cues that your fingertips pick up from the scooped tops on normal keyboards just aren't there. So you feel like your hands are just floating in air and you're guessing at where your fingers have to come down instead of feeling it.

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Tony Fabris

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#309864 - 06/05/2008 18:38 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
  • Only one (mouse-like) button.
  • Low-res screen.
  • No ethernet.
  • Only one USB port.
  • Crappy keyboard.
  • No (standard) VGA output.
  • No optical drive.
  • Heavy (for a subnote), despite the missing features.

Too many strikes for most uses, I'd think.


Edited by mlord (06/05/2008 18:39)

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#309865 - 06/05/2008 18:40 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: mlord]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31601
Loc: Seattle, WA
Don't the Air's have a really big multi-touch mousepad? Don't they have a system for handling right-button-click on those multitouch pads?
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Tony Fabris

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#309866 - 06/05/2008 18:45 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I would argue that if you're walking far enough with a laptop that it's going to start affecting your grip, you're threatening damage to the laptop anyway and should be using a carrier of some nature, whether it's a ToteGrip or a full-on bag.
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Bitt Faulk

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#309867 - 06/05/2008 18:48 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: tfabris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: tfabris
Don't they have a system for handling right-button-click on those multitouch pads?

Yes. The previous generation did, too. Simply tap with two fingers or click the button with two fingers on the pad. There are other utilities that you can download that will allow you to modify that further, but I've been happy with that setup.
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Bitt Faulk

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#309868 - 06/05/2008 19:11 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: wfaulk]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
It is first generation Apple hardware. That is a big enough reason for me smile

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#309870 - 06/05/2008 19:25 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: mlord]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: mlord
Only one (mouse-like) button.
Already covered.
Originally Posted By: mlord
No (standard) VGA output.
It comes with a VGA dongle.
Originally Posted By: mlord
Only one USB port.
They make hubs.
Originally Posted By: mlord
No ethernet.
No optical drive.
Both available as external devices.

All of these concerns are legitimate, don't get me wrong. But you make it sound as if there is no way to resolve them at all.
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Bitt Faulk

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#309871 - 06/05/2008 19:36 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: mlord]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
  • Low-res screen.

Too many strikes for most uses, I'd think.

That one would actually count as a positive point for me. I tried to use a 1440 14 inch screen the other year I just couldn't cope with it, everything is too small for me. Until we have OSes with decent variable dpi support and vector graphics everywhere than we currently have bitmaps hi-res laptops are a non-starter for me.

So 1280 on a 13 inch screen sounds like absolutely the limit for me (it may even be too far), given that until last week my laptop was 1024x768 on a 14 inch. I broke my laptop last week, so there is a Dell D630 on the way with the 14 inch 1280 screen and I am worried that might be a stretch for me.

I realise that this is an atypically opinion wink

Can't ever see myself owning a Mac Air though, I'd prefer a Lenvo X61.
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#309874 - 06/05/2008 20:16 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: andy]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Thanks for all of the input guys...You've brought up several things I hadn't considered yet.

Originally Posted By: DWallach

I own one of these with the SSD disk.

Pros:

Reasonable battery life.

Staggering screen brightness...[snip]..I hate, hate, hate these damn glossy screens, but on the MBA it's not so bad.


Thanks...good to know about the screen brightness helping with the glossy screen. Also, I'd forgotten to check battery life, but that sounds pretty good.

Originally Posted By: DWallach

Cons:

Compared to my Thinkpad, the keyboard sucks...[snip]

The single USB plug is occasionally annoying, but less than you'd think.

I keep forgetting to bring along the damn Micro-DVI dongles...[snip]

The screen resolution is great for me...[snip]

Surprising annoyance: [it has]...an edge comparable to the edge of a wooden clipboard.


I'm not picky about keyboards, and when I played with it at the Apple store, it didn't bother me too much, so I'm ok with that one.
USB...discussed in original post.
I'll keep the Micro-DVI dongle in the laptop backpack I carry, so that won't be a problem.
I just checked, and we're actually already using 1280x800 on the 15" widescreen Dell (my wife uses it too and doesn't like the higher resolutions), so I'm guessing that on a 13.3" screen, that will be fine.
It will be carried in the backpack unless it's going further than across the room, so I'm not worried about the sharp edges.


Originally Posted By: mlord

* Only one (mouse-like) button.
* Low-res screen.
* No ethernet.
* Only one USB port.
* Crappy keyboard.
* No (standard) VGA output.
* No optical drive.
* Heavy (for a subnote), despite the missing features.

Too many strikes for most uses, I'd think.


One mouse button: Thanks for bringing that up. I'll try to get used to the two finger click. Also, I'll have a bluetooth mouse with me for extended sessions.
Screen: already covered
Ethernet: I'll either get the dongle, or carry a small wireless ethernet bridge...I haven't decided which yet, but I'm leaning toward the bridge for the extra mobility.
One USB: already covered
Keyboard: already covered
VGA: will carry dongle in bag
Optical drive: This is another one I've been on the fence on. Sometimes I do like to grab a couple DVD's for watching on flights or in hotels. As far as software installation goes, I can do that when I have my desktop handy at home or download. I may just get the superdrive and keep it in the bag for the occasions when I need it.
Heavy: Hopefully that means it's also fairly sturdy...we'll have to see.


Originally Posted By: tman

It is first generation Apple hardware. That is a big enough reason for me \:\)
- Trevor


Yeah, but it's basically all the same components that are in the MacBook, just stuffed in a smaller case. I can live with that.

Originally Posted By: andy

Can't ever see myself owning a Mac Air though, I'd prefer a Lenovo X61.


Unfortunately, I am buying through a corporate office, and if I don't go Apple, I'm limited to Dell, otherwise I'd check that out.

In the end, I think I'm still loving the form factor, and Dell doesn't have anything that I would want more. Also, I tried to get my wife to use Ubuntu earlier this year, and while she gave it a good chance (over a month) she ended up getting me to re-install XP. I figure OSX is the next closest thing to a real OS that I can get her to use.
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~ John

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#309875 - 06/05/2008 20:39 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Dell laptops are poorly built in my experience. I haven't seen any very recent models, so they may have changed, but I kinda doubt it, especially for lower-end models.
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Bitt Faulk

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#309876 - 06/05/2008 21:31 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Originally Posted By: JBjorgen
Optical drive: This is another one I've been on the fence on. Sometimes I do like to grab a couple DVD's for watching on flights or in hotels. As far as software installation goes, I can do that when I have my desktop handy at home or download. I may just get the superdrive and keep it in the bag for the occasions when I need it.

Bit more effort but you can always copy it to a USB stick or onto the HD itself. The optical drive isn't very big so you can just slip it into the bag as you said. It'll save on your battery anyway if you do this.

Originally Posted By: JBjorgen
Yeah, but it's basically all the same components that are in the MacBook, just stuffed in a smaller case. I can live with that.

I think thats the problem though. They've wedged it into a really thin small case and it overheats. It will start to act oddly and crash if you push it. Apple released some fix for it which made the fan run properly but some people still complain about it.

The main issues I have with it are that it doesn't have an ethernet port and only 1 USB socket. I know you can solve that with a USB ethernet adapter and a USB hub respectively but the whole point of the MBA is that its very portable. If you need to lug around a sack of peripheral then its kinda losing the point...

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#309878 - 06/05/2008 21:43 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Originally Posted By: tfabris
- They could have made the keys bigger (i.e., the keys could all touch each other like a normal keyboard does) but they didn't.


I just popped off a standard key from a Dell fullsize keyboard I had nearby, and put it face down on top of the same key on the Mac keyboard. Actual surface space where you touch the keys is larger on the Mac keyboard by probably 2-3 mm in length and height. The visible gaps on the Mac keyboard make you think the keys are smaller then they actually are, where as a big keyboard tends to use tall tapered keys, and the gaps aren't as visible.

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#309881 - 06/05/2008 23:01 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Glenn

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#309882 - 06/05/2008 23:25 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: wfaulk]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
All of these concerns are legitimate, don't get me wrong. But you make it sound as if there is no way to resolve them at all.


Well, sure.. Just get a Mac Mini, then. You can plug in anything that's missing from the basic unit. smile

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#309884 - 06/05/2008 23:36 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Are you sure you don't want us to justify getting one instead of convincing you not to get one smile
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Matt

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#309885 - 06/05/2008 23:43 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: gbeer]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Heh. Clever.

That said, the X300 is far slower, 1.2GHz vs. 1.6GHz, has half the memory, and costs much more. Part of that is due to the fact that it only comes with a solid state drive, but it's still more even compared to the Air with an SSD.

The screen is slightly higher resolution, though. 1440x900.
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#309886 - 06/05/2008 23:51 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: msaeger]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
The main concerns for me currently on the Air have more to do with the hard disk and lack of expandable RAM. The SSD would be nice, but is just too pricey, and not quite better then hard drives in all regards. The tiny 1.8 inch drive is a step back in speed, and capacity. As a secondary only system though, 80gb would probably be more then enough. 2GB of ram seems decent, up till you start thinking about virtualization. I'm finding more and more use for it at both home and work, so more RAM is always good.

The lack of an optical drive doesn't bother me at all. Again with it being a secondary system, if I do need to rip a CD, encode a DVD, or install software, it can all be done on my main machine. I don't back up to optical discs, I don't use them for storage, and I rarely even install anything off them beyond the core OS.

Ethernet, I'm mixed about. A secondary system probably wouldn't have a huge need for wired connections with what I do. Wireless at home, work, and at pretty much every business and hotel I've been to recently means no need. But I can understand for that one time you do need it, having it right there instead of on a dongle would be nice.

Odds are though, the Air will be my next laptop, as I've transitioned back to having a desktop at home. My MacBook Pro has a while to go though before I feel a strong need to replace it.

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#309887 - 06/05/2008 23:56 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: gbeer]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
The funny thing about that parody is how true the final message is. I count 7 things on the desktop outside of the recycle bin, and what looks to be a very large system tray of crap.

"We don't add stuff on, we build (crapware) in".

Though to be honest, I don't know how much crapware Lenovo normally ships on their systems these days. Only had recent experience seeing Dell systems out of box, and then promptly reloaded by IT.

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#309888 - 07/05/2008 02:50 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: msaeger]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: msaeger
Are you sure you don't want us to justify getting one instead of convincing you not to get one smile


Well...the reason for getting one is simple...form factor, form factor, form factor. That definitely makes it desirable...it's whether the cons can overwhelm that.

Originally Posted By: drakino

...lack of expandable RAM...


That's the first one that I can't overlook or work around, and may well be the deal-breaker. So is the RAM actually soldered onto the mainboard then?
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~ John

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#309889 - 07/05/2008 03:03 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
I see that the RAM IS soldered on to the board. I wonder if the stacked RAM upgrade will work like it did on the empeg. Perhaps I need to purchase Patrick one of these too smile
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~ John

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#309890 - 07/05/2008 03:06 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: JBjorgen]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Yep.



They went for form over function in a lot of ways on this one, and too far in some areas. The drive for example is limited to 80gb, because thats the largest single platter 1.8 inch drive on the market. The 160gb 1.8 inch drive in the iPod is a 2 platter design, and was too thick for the Air.

My hope is that by the time I want to buy, they have a second revision out with 4gb ram as an option. Keep in mind though for your use, 2gb may be enough. All depends on what you actually need to use the machine for. Based on what you said above, the only task likely to be hindered by that would be video editing, but only if you go to working with large files over the 3-5 minute clips you were talking about.

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#309892 - 07/05/2008 10:48 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: drakino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: drakino
The funny thing about that parody is how true the final message is. I count 7 things on the desktop outside of the recycle bin, and what looks to be a very large system tray of crap.

"We don't add stuff on, we build (crapware) in".

Though to be honest, I don't know how much crapware Lenovo normally ships on their systems these days. Only had recent experience seeing Dell systems out of box, and then promptly reloaded by IT.

They load a lot of crap on. At least they did on the T60's I dealt with a little less than a year ago. Some of it is useful (like the fingerprint reader software), but most of it is not.

Still, I think Lenovo builds the sturdiest laptops you can buy without going to those toughbooks. I love the keyboards too.
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#309893 - 07/05/2008 10:50 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Originally Posted By: mlord
Only one (mouse-like) button.
Already covered.
Originally Posted By: mlord
No (standard) VGA output.
It comes with a VGA dongle.
Originally Posted By: mlord
Only one USB port.
They make hubs.
Originally Posted By: mlord
No ethernet.
No optical drive.
Both available as external devices.

All of these concerns are legitimate, don't get me wrong. But you make it sound as if there is no way to resolve them at all.

And just to echo the X300 video, each of those arguments adds a peripheral you have to carry with you.
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Matt

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#309895 - 07/05/2008 11:43 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: Dignan]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
For what it's worth, I chose not to buy the external DVD drive (I can share my "real" computer's drive over the network). I did get the USB Ethernet dongle and I use it all the time. Indeed, a have a pocket in my travel bag full of all the damn dongles and such. Still, it's better than my original Sony 505, which had this stupid bar-shaped thing for all the peripheral connections.

The SSD is the way to go. It's fast. It's shock-resistant. I like it. 2GB of RAM is plenty for road warrior tasks, including (for me) running Adobe Lightroom. I haven't tried to do any sort of virtualization.

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#309896 - 07/05/2008 12:40 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
My MacBook Pro has 2GB and I didn't have any problems keeping VMWare running all the time. It's been a while since I bothered, though.
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Bitt Faulk

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#312281 - 19/07/2008 00:10 Re: Convince me not to get a MacBook Air... [Re: wfaulk]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Ok...annoyance #1:

I'd like to simulate a windows shift + delete (bypass trash and delete the file or folder), either with a keyboard shortcut or a context menu option.

My google-fu seems weak today. Any ideas (and remember, I'm new to MacOS, so I wouldn't even know what to do with some Applescript if I had it).

Opening a terminal and using rm isn't a good solution. smile
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