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#303390 - 25/10/2007 12:46 looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Hi guys,

I've been reading up lately on the upcoming Windows Home Server release. I'm very interested in this software, but instead of buying a pre-built solution like eg the HP Mediasmart Windows Home Server (photo here), I 'd like to build my own system.

What I need:

    * Case based on the mATX standard (micro-ATX)
    * room for three to four 3,5" HDD's
    * one 5,25" slot (for DVD-RW)
    * Preferably as silent as possible (read: no tiny annoying fans in it, only large ones - starting at 80mm but preferably larger)
    * harddisk drives accessible from the front with a removable drive bay (this is the tricky part)

I've already found the Antec NSK-1300, and, while having excellent dimensions, good cooling and includes the PSU, it doesn't allow HD's to be removed/added without opening the case.

I guess I need something like this. (dutch text, but the photos tell all). That would be a perfect case, if it weren't mini ITX standard, which seriously limits the CPU choice I can make. That, and mini ITX boards being horribly expensive. It also draws its cooling from two 70 mm fans, which will no doubt be very noisy. Since I want to tuck this server away somewhere in the bedroom, noise is very important as you can probably imagine.

Basically, I want to install it, tuck it away somewhere and not manipulate it anymore after that, with the exception of adding/removing a drive when needed. A Windows Home Server is specifically built to be accessed via a terminal session on (one of the) PC's in the network, and does not need anything connected to it, other than a network and power cable.

The forementioned HP system would be perfect in fact, but of course, these cannot be bought as empty cases, only pre-built.

I've been looking for a couple of days now, but was not able to find anything which fits all my requirements. I had no idea this would be so hard!
Has anybody got any suggestions? Thanks!
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#303391 - 25/10/2007 22:09 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
How about this one, the Norco DS-520 (Engadget link)?

Five hot-swappable disks, three eSATA connectors, GigE, one giant fan on the back, claims to support Linux, etc. See also, the similarly spec'ed Thecus N5200, which comes preconfigured as a NAS rather than the bare metal of the Norco product.

Either way, you buy one of these things, you're not getting much if any tech support. If you get an HP MediaSmart thing, at least you have somebody to yell at on the telephone. Still, you can imagine the tech support nightmare if you're running something other than Microsoft's OS and you're trying to get past the troubleshooting idiots to convince them that you need a replacement part.

EDIT: Microsoft claims they're not selling Windows Home Server barebones:
Quote:
Why aren’t you releasing the software standalone to consumers?

We want to help ensure customers have a simplified, quality experience with Windows Home Server. The best way to do this is to deliver Windows Home Server on integrated hardware/software solutions through OEMs and system builders that are tested and meet system requirements.

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#303392 - 26/10/2007 02:45 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
To throw another product into the NAS consideration here, I've been really happy with my Infrant ReadyNAS NV+. Both the device and the community support there have really impressed me, though the cost was a bit on the high end.

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#303393 - 26/10/2007 08:05 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: DWallach]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Thanks for the replies guys. I actually wanted to buy a NAS solution until I read about this Windows Home Server. The NAS I was probably going to buy was the Synology CS 407, but the ones you guys recommend are very good options also, I know.

There are three reasons I prefer WHS over a regular NAS. One, WHS is -obviously- a real server, with much more CPU power behind it to back it up than a NAS. This means the Gigabit network would be a lot faster, almost up to the level of the speed limitation of the used harddisks itself, while most NAS'es stop at 30 MB/s. (That Thecus 5200 NAS seems to do better in that respect, especially the Pro version, because it uses a Celeron CPU instead of some network CPU. On the other hand the review says its noisy, making it unusable for my needs).
The second reason is multimedia. WHS is specifically designed to support and stream all kinds of media, while most NAS'es are only file servers. (the aforementioned Synology and Qnap are exceptions to this).
The third reason is cost. Building a small server with a reasonably powerful yet economical CPU and WHS is still a lot cheaper than buying one of the better NAS'es (like that Thecus N5200 Pro) and use that instead. Ok, so a real server would probaly consume a bit more power than a NAS, but there's always hibernation. (and maybe even wake-on-lan)

I know there has been mention that WHS won't be available as a separate software purchase, but I doubt this. I've even seen it pop up already in a few price lists of online shops, at about 130 euro for the OEM version.

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#303394 - 26/10/2007 10:39 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I know there has been mention that WHS won't be available as a separate software purchase, but I doubt this. I've even seen it pop up already in a few price lists of online shops, at about 130 euro for the OEM version.


Or $0 for a full (or minimal, your choice) Linux distro with way more capability.

Cheers

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#303395 - 26/10/2007 11:21 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: mlord]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
I understand what you are saying Mark, but I have absolutely zero Linux experience, and I have to be honest that immediately setting up an entire Linux server scares me. It's a stick-to-what-you-know kind of thing.

On the other hand, I've never set up a real windows server either, (but WHS is said to be developed as 'idiot-proof', so I have good hopes. ). Hmmm... I guess I could use this as an excellent opportunity to learn a few things. I've always wanted to learn more about Linux.

Can a Linux server be setup nowadays without having to use the terminal (too much)? Does Linux support hibernation/wake-on-lan? Can it be used also for media files streaming as well as simple file serving? (which is -granted- almost the same thing).

Sorry if this all sounds stupid, but as said, I'm as newie as they come when it comes to Linux. I am willing to give it a go though. Could you point me towards a faq or a how-to of some sort which could help me with this?
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#303396 - 26/10/2007 13:08 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: mlord]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Linux distro with way more capability.


Out of the box? Read the WHS specification page.
_________________________
-- roger

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#303397 - 26/10/2007 13:21 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: Roger]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Quote:
Linux distro with way more capability.


Out of the box? Read the WHS specification page.


I prefer to optimize for the common case. With Linux, "out of the box" generally happens exactly once. Ongoing use and adding functionality afterwards is a lot more common.

Cheers

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#303398 - 26/10/2007 13:29 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Can a Linux server be setup nowadays without having to use the terminal (too much)?


The "terminal" is usually the *easy* way to do complex things. But if you really prefer mousey methods, then yes, that's actually the default "in your face" mode of most major Linux distros now. Many of them even go to the extreme of making it somewhat difficult to even find a "terminal" window. Which apparently pleases review columnists, but peeves the heck of out me!

Quote:
Does Linux support hibernation/wake-on-lan?


Yes. For hibernation, you may have to enable it (default is usually "off").
Wake-on-LAN is commonplace, but I don't know if there's a GUI to configure it.

Quote:
Can it be used also for media files streaming as well as simple file serving? (which is -granted- almost the same thing).


Look at your empeg running Hijack -- it "streams" mp3 to your PC/whatever, and it's not even a fancy full-fledged Linux distro!

But I don't know much about "complexifying" things that ought to be simple, so I suppose the answer depends more upon what the client software expects (my clients here are all using Linux).
Quote:

Could you point me towards a faq or a how-to of some sort which could help me with this?

By far the best way is to have a mate drop over and help out initially. That really shortens the learning curve. I'd offer to, but I suspect we live far far away from each other.

Every major Linux distro includes thousands upon thousands of pages of "HOW-TO" documents, user manuals, help files, etc..

Which nobody ever seems to look at.

Cheers

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#303399 - 26/10/2007 13:53 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
The nice thing in your situation, is that you're not already addicted to payware for this situation. Once they hook you, quitting the habit is nearly impossible for many folks.

So you have a chance to gain control of this aspect of your existence. And hey, if it doesn't work out after a good effort, then you can always visit a street corner and get your fix the old way, for a fee, and then an upgrade fee, and then ...

For your situation, there are a few Linux operating systems ("distributions") that can do the job. Ubuntu is the new kid on the block, but has a massive community support base and tons of momentum behind it. One nit with their "Server" edition, is that it doesn't include a useful GUI by default (WTF?). But that's easily fixed with a single command after installation.

Here is a short article I saw for getting started with Ubuntu Server Edition, including adding on the GUI parts.

Alternatives include Redhat, who have helped the Linux kernel over the years almost as much as they have set back the Linux desktop in the same period with their inferior installation, packaging, and invention of GNOME. But there's a white-label clone available, called CentOS, which is what most people nowadays use rather than "real" Redhat.

Fedora is Redhat's experimental ("unstable") distro, so avoid that for your situation.

Suse Linux is very popular, more so than Redhat, and is probably the best alternative to Ubuntu.

Cheers

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#303400 - 26/10/2007 13:53 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
Can it be used also for media files streaming as well as simple file serving?

It depends a bit on what clients you expect to have. Firefly (the new name for mt-daapd) is good for DAAP clients such as Macintoshes and Roku Soundbridges. The Logitech/Slim Devices Squeezebox server software also runs fine on Linux. And, for what it's worth, you can get third-party Rio Receiver server software too.

There isn't, however, a really good Linux media server for the open UPnP standards yet (or, at least, not a free one). There's gmediaserver, but it's not as full-featured as Windows Media Connect. If you have mainly UPnP clients such as MP101 or XBox, WHS is going to be a better bet until Linux catches up.

If you haven't made the choice of client yet either, the Squeezebox is the best IMO: the others either don't do gapless, or don't do FLAC, or both.

Peter

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#303401 - 26/10/2007 14:01 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: mlord]
sein
old hand

Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
Quote:
One nit with their "Server" edition, is that it doesn't include a useful GUI by default (WTF?).

I thought that was a good idea. My basic Ubuntu Server machine at work doesn't have a monitor and I wouldn't use remote X on it either.

I suppose it would have been nice if it asked on install though.
_________________________
Hussein

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#303402 - 26/10/2007 14:18 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: mlord]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Quote:
The "terminal" is usually the *easy* way to do complex things. But if you really prefer mousey methods, then yes, that's actually the default "in your face" mode of most major Linux distros now. Many of them even go to the extreme of making it somewhat difficult to even find a "terminal" window. Which apparently pleases review columnists, but peeves the heck of out me!

Heh. I guess. I started out with PC's back in the eighties, when we all still worked with DOS. I actually liked the command prompt. But it seems there's so much more than can be done with this prompt in Linux, and frankly, it's a bit intimidating. But I would very much like to learn. I figure after working a bit with a graphical shell, the rest will become clear to me after a while too...
Quote:

Look at your empeg running Hijack -- it "streams" mp3 to your PC/whatever, and it's not even a fancy full-fledged Linux distro!

Ah, yes, very true.

Quote:

By far the best way is to have a mate drop over and help out initially. That really shortens the learning curve. I'd offer to, but I suspect we live far far away from each other.

Hey, what's a few thousand km's these days?
You're right of course. And this is probably the main reason why I haven't switched to Linux (yet?): since none of my friends use Linux, I would have to learn it all on my own, with no-one to consult in case problems pop up (which will, of course). This in contrast to the DOS-days, when everybody worked in DOS, and when an answer to any question was always pretty easy to get. Now I would always have to search for the answer myself. Which brings me to the following point...
Quote:

Every major Linux distro includes thousands upon thousands of pages of "HOW-TO" documents, user manuals, help files, etc..

Which nobody ever seems to look at.

... which is this: I guess the reason for this is over-documentation. In Dutch we have a saying, which would be very appropriate in this case: there's so much information out there, it's become almost impossible to still 'see the forest through all the trees.'

While most likely intended to inform new users as good as possible, the amount of information is also pretty intimidating...
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#303403 - 26/10/2007 14:27 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
In Dutch we have a saying, which would be very appropriate in this case: there's so much information out there, it's become almost impossible to still 'see the forest through all the trees.'


We have the same in English, though the wording tends to be along the lines of "can't see the wood for the trees".
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#303404 - 26/10/2007 14:41 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: mlord]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Quote:
The nice thing in your situation, is that you're not already addicted to payware for this situation. Once they hook you, quitting the habit is nearly impossible for many folks.

Trust me, I'm pretty hooked. But I'm willing to give it a try...
Would you believe I've already bought a few books about linux, and only last month I bought a local computer magazine special all about Linux which included Suse 10.2 (I know 10.3 has been released by now). I've also already downloaded Suse 10.0 to my PC once, ready to install... where it has remained ever since because the water turned out to be too deep after all.

You have to understand my situation. I'm what I would call the 'family, friend and collegues' PC consultant', so I have to deal with fixing (windows) PC's quite a lot. Then, when I turn on my own pc, I just want it to work, without having to fiddle with it. (I don't mean because Linux need a lot of fiddling with, but because my experience with it is zero)

I'm not alone in this situation. I know for a fact that most of my Pc-savvy friends would also be willing to give it a try, but I know them, they are just waiting for me to cave in first, so I could then tackle all the essential first-timer problems on my own and they could take advantage of my freshly-gained knowledge. (damn then! )

Quote:

For your situation, there are a few Linux operating systems ("distributions") that can do the job.

I know. This is also one of the advantages with Linux, which works against it when it comes to 'converting newcomers', I'm sure. I know, so many personal tastes, so many Linux flavours, but it only makes it more difficult for newcomers...

I had already worked out that GNOME was not the best choice to make, so I wanted to use KDE. (even though GNOME comes with most of the software I'm used to currently, like Firefox eg., but I'm sure those apps will run fine on KDE as well). So when I choose an out-of-the-box solution, there's really only Suse and Kubuntu to choose from. (well, when it comes to the 'big distro names anyway) Since Kubuntu is still the 'little brother' of Ubuntu, I had already decided I was going to go with Suse.

So you see, I had already planned this phase coming into my life on day. It might as well be now.
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#303405 - 26/10/2007 14:56 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: peter]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Quote:
There isn't, however, a really good Linux media server for the open UPnP standards yet (or, at least, not a free one).

I've always heard Twonkyvision is pretty good. Ok, so it costs $30, but if it is good I'm willing to pay that much for it.

Quote:

There's gmediaserver, but it's not as full-featured as Windows Media Connect. If you have mainly UPnP clients such as MP101 or XBox, WHS is going to be a better bet until Linux catches up.

I'm currently busy ripping all my DVD, and I'm keeping them in the mpeg2 format. (no DivX or Xvid encoding). Storage is cheap enough these days for this not to become a problem. The reason I'm not re-encoding those files into a Divx or so is because I want to be sure to keep the 'original quality'. (the same reason why some people choose FLAC over MP3 I guess). The goal of this project is to create a 'movie jukebox', which I could then use to stream the movies from to a (still to be purchased) 1080p projector.

I already have the network mediaplater player, that's this Freecom 350 model (which is nothing more than a reboxed version of this unit, I found out later). It works very well.

In a later stage, I would then probably add an in-house solution also, something like the Squeezebox, or a complete Sonos setup. Not quite sure which one to choose yet.

I'd also like to use the server to backup my home pc's, and maybe also install a little email server on it. (not sure about that one yet). You know, about everything what WHS promises, with the exception of the email server...
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#303406 - 26/10/2007 14:58 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I had already worked out that GNOME was not the best choice to make, so I wanted to use KDE. (even though GNOME comes with most of the software I'm used to currently, like Firefox eg., but I'm sure those apps will run fine on KDE as well). So when I choose an out-of-the-box solution, there's really only Suse and Kubuntu to choose from. (well, when it comes to the 'big distro names anyway) Since Kubuntu is still the 'little brother' of Ubuntu, I had already decided I was going to go with Suse.


Well, you certainly know a lot about stuff already, it seems!

Myself, I just cannot live with GNOME, despite trying to. With each new Ubuntu release, I install the GNOME version first, and try to live with it for a day. Usually, within an hour I'm just too frustrated (now I know what windows users feel like, sort of), and have to issue this command:

apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

That one command will pull down a few hundred megabytes of software, install it, configure it, and leave me with a choice of Kubuntu(KDE) and Ubuntu(GNOME) afterwards. I believe it only asks a single question of the user during all of that.

After doing that, I can log out, and log in again with KDE instead of GNOME. And yes, Kubuntu *is* the poor second cousin of Ubuntu. Under the hood things are the same, but the level of integration in Kubuntu(KDE) is not nearly as good as that in Ubuntu(GNOME).

So, good choice going with Suse. And good for other reasons too, as it is extremely popular in Europe. So you are more likely to find others who also use it.

There are Linux User Groups (LUGs) in most cities in the world, so you could google for one near your home and try contacting them for help -- odds are good that somebody might volunteer to drop by and help out initially.

Cheers


Edited by mlord (26/10/2007 14:59)

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#303407 - 26/10/2007 15:35 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: andy]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Quote:
In Dutch we have a saying, which would be very appropriate in this case: there's so much information out there, it's become almost impossible to still 'see the forest through all the trees.'


We have the same in English, though the wording tends to be along the lines of "can't see the wood for the trees".

We have the same in American, though the wording tends to be along the lines of "can't see the forest for the trees".

Although in American, this refers to looking too closely at details and ignoring the total.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#303408 - 26/10/2007 15:36 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
I already have the network mediaplater player, that's this Freecom 350 model (which is nothing more than a reboxed version of this unit, I found out later). It works very well.

Ah, OK, that doesn't really involve specific network streaming protocols at all, just Windows file sharing. That actually is something Linux supports out-of-the-box (using Samba).

Peter

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#303409 - 26/10/2007 15:37 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: sein]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
Quote:
One nit with their "Server" edition, is that it doesn't include a useful GUI by default (WTF?).

I thought that was a good idea. My basic Ubuntu Server machine at work doesn't have a monitor and I wouldn't use remote X on it either.

Ditto.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#303410 - 26/10/2007 15:44 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: mlord]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Every major Linux distro includes thousands upon thousands of pages of "HOW-TO" documents, user manuals, help files, etc..

Which nobody ever seems to look at.

I do!



(Although, truthfully, I tend not to install most of the HOW-TO documents in favour of using the web versions.)

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#303411 - 26/10/2007 15:46 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: andy]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Quote:
In Dutch we have a saying, which would be very appropriate in this case: there's so much information out there, it's become almost impossible to still 'see the forest through all the trees.'


We have the same in English, though the wording tends to be along the lines of "can't see the wood for the trees".

Must be a regional idiom, then -- I've heard both forms used in English, by native English speakers, but the "forest" version is more familiar to me.

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#303412 - 26/10/2007 16:11 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Meanwhile, I still haven't found an appropriate mATX case. (I bet these will start popping up more and more once WHS is released)
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#303413 - 26/10/2007 16:30 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
I'm currently busy ripping all my DVD, and I'm keeping them in the mpeg2 format. (no DivX or Xvid encoding). Storage is cheap enough these days for this not to become a problem. The reason I'm not re-encoding those files into a Divx or so is because I want to be sure to keep the 'original quality'. (the same reason why some people choose FLAC over MP3 I guess). The goal of this project is to create a 'movie jukebox', which I could then use to stream the movies from to a (still to be purchased) 1080p projector.

I already have the network mediaplater player, that's this Freecom 350 model (which is nothing more than a reboxed version of this unit, I found out later). It works very well.


I've ripped all of my DVDs and put them on a fileserver as MPEG2 in VOB format. Works great most...

The only issue is that anything that isn't actually a full blown computer doesn't seem to be able to do the menus when streaming. You can play the video and have all the features. You just can't get the menu so you have to wonder whether RandomExtraFeature is what stream. From what I could find when researching this a couple years back is that its part of the DVD licensing that forbids you from doing this.

I can stream and get the menus if I use a PC/Mac however but thats a bit overboard...

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#303414 - 26/10/2007 16:38 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: tman]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Quote:
I've ripped all of my DVDs and put them on a fileserver as MPEG2 in VOB format. Works great most...

The only issue is that anything that isn't actually a full blown computer doesn't seem to be able to do the menus when streaming. You can play the video and have all the features. You just can't get the menu so you have to wonder whether RandomExtraFeature is what stream. From what I could find when researching this a couple years back is that its part of the DVD licensing that forbids you from doing this.

I can stream and get the menus if I use a PC/Mac however but thats a bit overboard...

Most of the time this will not be an issue for me, because I only rip the movie, with English DD (or DTS) sound, and the Dutch and English subs.
I agree this could become a problem when I start ripping my TV series DVD's, cause those usually contain 4 to 5 series per disc...

Come to think of it: what do you use to rip your DVD's? I use AnyDVD combined with CloneDVD, but I can't really remember having seen an option to also rip the menus...
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#303415 - 26/10/2007 16:48 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Quote:
Most of the time this will not be an issue for me, because I only rip the movie, with English DD (or DTS) sound, and the Dutch and English subs.
I agree this could become a problem when I start ripping my TV series DVD's, cause those usually contain 4 to 5 series per disc...

Its not a major problem as I usually do what you do and just keep the video, english soundtracks and subtitles. For DVDs with multiple episodes on then I split them out.

Quote:
Come to think of it: what do you use to rip your DVD's? I use AnyDVD combined with CloneDVD, but I can't really remember having seen an option to also rip the menus...

I'm still using DVD Shrink actually. I've not bought that many recent DVDs so not run into the copy protection schemes that often.

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#303416 - 26/10/2007 17:07 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
So my last blurb was kinda short, but for anyone else interested, the key points I've liked about the Infrant unit so far are:
  • Protocol support. AFP, NFS, SMB, FTP, rsync, and Webdav for files. So no matter what OS, or location I'm at, I can get at my files easily. SCP is coming in 4.0 firmware along with full open SSH access.
  • Media streaming. Out of the box it does daapd for iTunes and such, uPnP for the PS3 and others, and some protocol used by networked DVD players. Additional support can be added.
  • Expandability. You can start out with 2 disks mirroring each other, then plop in a 3rd disk to expand the space and switch to raid 5 without data loss. Then add a 4th disk later. It is still a RAID based system though, so drives do need to be identical in size. WHS and devices like the Drobo are moving towards file based redundancy and not block level redundancy allowing mixed sized disks, and I see the benefit of that. Most likely my Infrant replacement down the road will require this feature.
  • USB support for various things. I can attach a printer to share it, attach a disk or media card to share it, or attach a USB disk to backup. It can also use a USB port to monitor the UPS it is attached to for proper shutdown.
  • Speed. Looking at the benchmarks I found, the Infrant devices tended to be near the top in the home market.
  • Power usage and thermal monitoring. The box has variable speed fans for cooling, and can also do scheduled shutdowns and startups, and spin down disks when idle.
  • Warranty. So initially the cost seemed somewhat high to me, especially when I found pre Netgear branded boxes for a bit cheeper. Netgear expanded the warranty out to 5 years now though, so the cost seems reasonable for that. Combine it with 5 year warranty hard drives and the box will last me for a while.
  • Hackability. It is running Linux under the hood, SPARC based Debian and with the next firmware SSH access will be allowed to anyone who wants it to extend the system beyond their existing system of adding in addins.
  • Hardware RAID. So yeah, I know there is a big discussion of hardware vs software that has spun up here quite a bit, but for this particular setup it makes sense. The CPU doesn't have to be super beefy to allow for good performance.

I went the NAS route instead of a new do it yourself linux box just to avoid the time lost to setup and later upgrades. While I did like my old Linux solution running Gentoo, it still was a timesink at times. I'd rather my work on Linux/Unix at home to be something for fun and exploration instead of being forced into Linux to get my files back after a drive failure, or adding a new media streaming protocol.

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#303417 - 26/10/2007 17:08 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: drakino]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I have an older ReadyNAS X600 that I'm looking to retire. Infrant basically used a crap "squirrel cage" fan that's way, way too loud. I replaced it, and it's still way, way too loud. Newer Infrant boxes use big, standard PC fans.

Infrant's web forum is sweet and if you've got a software issue, they're excellent at supporting you. For example, I bought a cheapo UPS which turned out not to be on their supported list and wasn't recognized out of the box. I posted, they asked me to press the button to send them my logs, and within a week I had a patch and it worked great. That's service!

For hardware issues, it's less clear that Infrant is great. They sent me a new fan, but the core fact was that they had a design defect and weren't prepared to do much about it. They had different fan issues with later boxes that seem to finally have been worked out. It's been quite a while, though, since they've announced a new product. Maybe something new around the corner?

What next for me then? I'm probably going to by a major-branded Windows Home Server, throw away Windows, and run OpenSolaris or something. The WHS boxes have much faster CPUs than the Infrant which should lead to great performance. The WHS license isn't worth much, but I'll at least play with it. (Ttemptation: buy a WHS server with a single hard drive, pull that drive, and add four clean ones. If/when there's a hardware problem requiring going through telephone support, I can downgrade the server to its factory state such that they won't say "we don't support that.")

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#303418 - 26/10/2007 17:33 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: DWallach]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Quote:
I'm probably going to by a major-branded Windows Home Server, throw away Windows, and run OpenSolaris or something. The WHS boxes have much faster CPUs than the Infrant which should lead to great performance. The WHS license isn't worth much, but I'll at least play with it.

That was my idea as well, but I found the hardware of the two pre-built WHS's I was able to track (HP and Medion) a bit lacking, and that's why I want to build my own system.
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#303419 - 26/10/2007 20:10 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
I found the hardware of the two pre-built WHS's I was able to track (HP and Medion) a bit lacking

Lacking in speed, lacking in build quality, too loud, something else?

I imagine (perhaps without justification) that there will be a slew of vendors getting into the business of selling WHS boxes in time for Christmas. Who knows, maybe even Apple will have a competitive surprise up their sleeves.

I'm not holding my breath...

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#303420 - 27/10/2007 03:37 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: DWallach]
BartDG
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
Quote:

Lacking in speed, lacking in build quality, too loud, something else?

In speed mostly. I can only speak for the HP model (found close to no info on other models), because that one is using an AMD CPU. I really prefer Intel these days... more speed for the same amount (or less) of power consumption. What really bugs me the most is the fact HP server only has 512 MB of memory, which I doubt will be sufficient, judging on how economical Windows usually deals with RAM...
Quote:

I imagine (perhaps without justification) that there will be a slew of vendors getting into the business of selling WHS boxes in time for Christmas. Who knows, maybe even Apple will have a competitive surprise up their sleeves.


You're probably right. I'm also pretty sure that, now that Microsoft has jumped onto this certain section of the market, a lot more models like the HP will be released. But we'll just have to wait and see I guess...
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#303421 - 27/10/2007 07:31 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: BartDG]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
the fact HP server only has 512 MB of memory, which I doubt will be sufficient, judging on how economical Windows usually deals with RAM...


You be surprised, a Windows server just doing some light file serving and backup duties (which is what WSH will be doing) can cope perfectly fine on 512 MB. In fact my main Window server here still only has 386MB and that is a database server too.

It tends to be desktop apps that use up huge gobs of memory, largely because they are more visible to users and so Microsoft et al keep throwing features at them endlessly
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#303422 - 27/10/2007 12:01 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Tom, what benchmarks did you see for the Infrant that showed them near the top? I've only ever seen tests that show them near the bottom. In fact all SoHo NAS solutions were abysmal for speed at only a fraction of the data transfer rate of external USB or Firewire devices (even when connected via an all Gigabit path).

I'd like at some point to have a robust NAS solution, but I don't see anything that really makes me want to jump on it yet. For no I'll stick with he Mac mini running a couple of external drives (one for media streaming and a dual drive RAID1 enclosure for backups). TIme Machine in the new 10.5 version of Mac OS can't back up to NAS devices either. The only network drives it can hit are those connected to another machine running the same OS and formatted HFS+
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#303423 - 27/10/2007 15:06 Re: looking for mATX case for Windows Home Server [Re: hybrid8]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Tom, what benchmarks did you see for the Infrant that showed them near the top? I've only ever seen tests that show them near the bottom. In fact all SoHo NAS solutions were abysmal for speed at only a fraction of the data transfer rate of external USB or Firewire devices (even when connected via an all Gigabit path).


http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/ is one place I remember checking. For me, the benchmarks were between devices that could hold at least 4 disks, and support AFP so it narrowed the field down quite a bit. It's nowhere near direct attached speeds, but it's good enough for my environment where I want to stream media off of it, store some backups to it, and generally access it from a Wireless N Macbook Pro.

As far as the Time Machine issues, I'm hoping that will change. Earlier developer seeds worked fine over a network to pretty much anything, including Apple's own Airport Disk. All that seems to have been stripped last minute, making me think there was a potential bug there that they couldn't fix without delaying the release. The Leopard install procedure is still starting up the networking system on the machines to allow for network Time Machine restores and still includes text to indicate Airport Disk as a valid config, so this issue may be a 10.5.1 fix.

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