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#303292 - 23/10/2007 23:12 Re: Interesting video [Re: Robotic]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Ah- found the flood map page.
Yikes! The house I'm living in is in a flood plain!

Woohoo! I'm safe! (But the airport will be underwater, so I won't be going anywhere quick.)

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#303293 - 24/10/2007 12:29 Re: Interesting video [Re: Robotic]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Hm. What does rising ocean levels mean to river levels? I'm guessing nothing other than the mouth will be further, um, inland(?), but I'm not sure.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#303294 - 24/10/2007 12:58 Re: Interesting video [Re: wfaulk]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Hm. What does rising ocean levels mean to river levels? I'm guessing nothing other than the mouth will be further, um, inland(?), but I'm not sure.


It's probably negligible (and I'm making this up as I go along), but a bigger surface area could mean more evaporation, and more rainfall, leading to higher river levels over the whole catchment area.
_________________________
-- roger

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#303295 - 24/10/2007 13:58 Re: Interesting video [Re: andy]
g_attrill
old hand

Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
Quote:
This links talks about the one obvious problem I saw with his logic.

http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2007/10/logical-fallacy.html


I spotted that too, the happy face on the right column means "everything's ok" but on the left column the at the bottom is not comparable - it's the same as above, but no global warming.

He does talk about the options in some detail, but the table is the key point of the video, and making it so misleading is a bit wrong.

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#303296 - 24/10/2007 14:59 Re: Interesting video [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Oh, another argument is that there aren't just the two states, one where global warming doesn't exist and another where it does. There are really three states, one where global warming doesn't exist, one where global warming does exist and we can do something about it, and one where global warming does exist and we can't do anything about it. That third state isn't necessarily excluded when you narrow the question (as he did) to human-caused global warming, as it's possible that we've set something in motion that we can't stop.

So that adds a third row where not doing anything results in catastrophe and doing something results in a potentially worse catastrophe by exacerbating a fiscal depression.

Of course, there are potentially more columns, too. Doing something can be split into reversing/preventing/ameliorating global warming (which each could potentially be their own column) and preparing for global warming; that is, maybe there's some way we could allow global warming to occur but figure out a way to make it non-catastrophic.

Then each of the do-something columns can be split in two: one where we do something and succeed and another where we do something and fail.

All in all, I tend to agree with his conclusion, though. If we assume there is potential for catastrophe, we should do everything we can to prevent it.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#303297 - 24/10/2007 15:47 Re: Interesting video [Re: wfaulk]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
The one thing I haven't figured out is how the cost of attempting to prevent global warming could cause a global depression. After all, that money won't just go away -- it's going to have to be spent researching, investing in, and manufacturing of new technology, and infrastructure, all of which should lead to more jobs, and a healthier economy -- making column A a win:win column.

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#303298 - 24/10/2007 15:49 Re: Interesting video [Re: canuckInOR]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
What he said.
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Tony Fabris

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#303299 - 24/10/2007 16:17 Re: Interesting video [Re: canuckInOR]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14497
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The one thing I haven't figured out is how the cost of attempting to prevent global warming could cause a global depression. After all, that money won't just go away -- it's going to have to be spent researching, investing in, and manufacturing of new technology, and infrastructure, all of which should lead to more jobs, and a healthier economy -- making column A a win:win column.


I'm no expert on economics, but that money has to come from somewhere. Taxes. MUCH higher taxes.

And the problem with that, is the same as we have now, except greatly amplified: it only works if all countries participate. Without large economy naysayers like China, USA, and Russia on board, the countries that *do* participate will be at a severe economic disadvantage to those who don't raise taxation/participation levels.

In the end, everyone gets gradually fried.

Cheers

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#303300 - 24/10/2007 16:30 Re: Interesting video [Re: mlord]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yes, basically you're pumping money into something that isn't immediately producing a salable product, and probably never will, as the only logical course of action is to give that product away, since it's probably useless if not applied universally. (Yes, people will make money implementing it, but they will be getting that IP for free.)

Of course, you're paying people to do these things, and employing people is positive, so it's not as if it's all going to waste, but there is no advancement of wealth.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#303301 - 24/10/2007 17:22 Re: Interesting video [Re: canuckInOR]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Quote:
The one thing I haven't figured out is how the cost of attempting to prevent global warming could cause a global depression.


O-kaaayyy... Let's start by assuming that the only way to ameliorate the global warming problem will be a drastic reduction in the consumption of fossil fuels. That means you get to drive your car 15 miles per week. That means that the availability and cost of manufactured goods goes up enormously due to chaos in the transportation industry. That means that the world's largest industry (no, not automobile manufacturing, which will also be destroyed, but, believe it or not, tourism) will go away. That means a tremendous change in the entire social fabric (in the USA at least and in many of the so-called developed countries) as even getting to work on a daily basis will become problematical if not impossible.

The above effects are just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, and would certainly be the harbingers of a global depression.

Just call me Mr. Gloom & Doom, but I honestly believe that we are already past the tipping point.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#303302 - 24/10/2007 18:05 Re: Interesting video [Re: tanstaafl.]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
That means a tremendous change in the entire social fabric (in the USA at least [...])

I once saw an office block in a US city that had bicycle racks outside. Then I looked a bit closer. It was the EPA office.

A 15-mile-per-week private car rationing scheme would certainly radically change the pricing structure of the housing market (McMansions in gated communities far from public transport links would be worthless, run-down townhouses near rail stations in inner suburbs would be very valuable). But if the change were gradual enough, I don't see that it would damage the economy too much, at least if commercial transport was affected less.

It would be a "tremendous change" in the lifestyles of those people who do currently have 10-mile, 30-mile, 50-mile car commutes. But the writing has been on the wall for that lifestyle for a long time. Are there really still people who believe it will continue to be sustainable indefinitely?

Peter

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#303303 - 24/10/2007 23:33 Re: Interesting video [Re: peter]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Quote:
But if the change were gradual enough, I don't see that it would damage the economy too much


Right. And just how much time do you think we have?

Think about how long it would take to essentially shut down the automobile industry and all the peripherally related industries (steel, rubber, automobile repair, auto sales, etc.) and re-employ those workers, without triggering a global depression.

Hey, maybe we can convert over to building ELECTRIC cars, and get around the whole fossil fuel thing and save the world. Oh, wait... where is the electricity to run the electric cars going to come from? Coal? That would be worse than burning gasoline. I know! We'll build more nuclear plants. The average waiting time for certification of a nuclear power plant in North America is currently around 40 years and counting, but what the heck, maybe the ice in Greenland won't melt all that much in another half a century.

The automobile industry is just ONE example of the turmoil that would ensue in the unlikely circumstance that we actually did do something about global warming.

Quote:
Are there really still people who believe it will continue to be sustainable indefinitely?


Apparently the 59,297 Americans who purchased large SUVs in April alone of this year seem to think so. (Scroll to end of article for citation)

There's the myth of an old Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times." The coming decades certainly have my interest.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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