#297772 - 30/04/2007 19:35
Family member taken in by scam. More info?
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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My girlfriend's mom has gotten taken by a scam. Her mom doesn't understand enough to explain it fully, but here's what my girlfriend knows:
The offer is from a VOIP company called i-Fortuity.
They charge a fee (you're meant to consider it an "investment") and help you set up a website using some info of theirs. There seems to be the option for you to personalize it or not.
Somehow the website you have set up is either providing service or sales from the company to their customers doing some kind of search. If you've paid a premium fee, your site is supposed to be among the ten first hits returned to the customers.
You aren't required to make calls or do any selling, but you are required to do a bit of maintenance on the website.
Supposedly, the money you get from these customers clicking on your site is eventually enough for you to live on.
My girlfriend can't figure out the purpose of these sites-- extra hosting, VOIP servers, or what-- because this is about as much info as she can get out of her mother; sometimes it sounds as if you are actually providing VOIP service somehow; other times it sounds as if you are running a site that actually makes sales; other times it sounds like it's an ad site. There doesn't seem to be any info about this at all on i-Fortuity's own site.
She wants to know... well first, obviously, it's a scam, but what, if anything, are these individual sites actually doing? She's never heard of any kind of setup like this, so she isn't even sure what to google for (she's tried searching phrases like internet hosting, VOIP hosting, etc.)
Has anyone ever heard of this kind of setup?
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#297773 - 30/04/2007 20:10
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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I wonder if it's some sort of adclick scam where they pay other people to click on the links, and take a percentage of the adclick revenue. Google is supposed to hunt these sites down and kill them, but hey, it's not like theyt really hurt google too much. Disguising them as various independent websites might make it more difficult to pick them out. Just a theory, who knows if it's what's actually going on.
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#297774 - 30/04/2007 20:17
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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From a Google search (looks like i-Fortuity and Intelefone are the same thing) it looks like their web site is supposed to be reselling VoIP service and they're supposed to get a percentage of the revenue. Basically, it looks like a bogus franchise system.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#297775 - 30/04/2007 20:32
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Thanks for the info.  Vixy has joined the BBS, so she can take the conversation replies directly from here. I know she's in good hands.
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#297776 - 30/04/2007 20:50
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
From a Google search (looks like i-Fortuity and Intelefone are the same thing) it looks like their web site is supposed to be reselling VoIP service and they're supposed to get a percentage of the revenue. Basically, it looks like a bogus franchise system.
Classic MLM/Pyramid scheme, the hook is the ongoing revenue but when somebody has joined they realise their only hope of even recovering their initial investment is to resell the scheme to other people and get a cut of their joining fee.
A while back the Herbalife scheme swept through the south coast of the UK. I previously read about it operating in the US, and when a friend mentioned a friend of his was talking about a business opportunity I identified it as Herbalife even before the other person had been told about the nature of the business! We talked him out of dropping £1,500 into it, but meanwhile another friend a few miles away was taken in hook, line and sinker!
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#297777 - 30/04/2007 21:04
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: g_attrill]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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There's nothing obvious about sub-franchising, so I avoided the use of the term "MLM", but you're probably right.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297778 - 30/04/2007 21:20
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: wfaulk]
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new poster
Registered: 30/04/2007
Posts: 2
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Basically, it looks like a bogus franchise system.
Hi. Girlfriend in question, here.
If it's bogus, does that mean illegal? Is there anything I can do about them, or at least anything I can do to get her money back?
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#297779 - 30/04/2007 22:12
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: vixy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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It's real touchy. I don't know the particulars of that establishment, but one of my friends here worked for quite some time at a company where she built websites for customers. It was basically a pyramid scheme. Her boyfriend went to a company dinner one time and asked the salesmen "So... what exactly do you sell?"
"We sell opportunities for you to sell opportunities."
That's right. They sold the ability to you to sell to somebody else the same ability. They had these very simple webpages created that basically had a phone number and an email and a professional look to it and a call center behind the number. That was about it. The dudes that ran the place were printing money.
They did eventually get raided by the FBI and shut down, but no money was ever returned/refunded.
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#297780 - 01/05/2007 01:03
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: vixy]
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addict
Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 691
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Quote:
anything I can do to get her money back?
credit card dispute / charge back? followed by replacing that cc# with a fresh one?
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Oliver
mk1 30gb: 129 | mk2a 30gb: 040104126
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#297781 - 01/05/2007 01:12
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: oliver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Done. CC company is quite nice about it, of course.
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#297782 - 01/05/2007 03:40
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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The whole thing was of course a grand conspiracy of Tony's to have Vixy join his online world 
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#297783 - 01/05/2007 05:24
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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In which case - welcome Vixy
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#297784 - 01/05/2007 11:39
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: vixy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
If it's bogus, does that mean illegal?
IANAL
Not necessarily. I believe that the rule of thumb for this sort of thing is that the company must produce something like 70% of its profits from actual product sales. I want to say that this is based on a ruling in favor of Amway.
Regardless, the only real options I can think of are to contact your DA's office or your local news' consumer complaint division (assuming you have one).
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#297785 - 01/05/2007 13:06
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: andy]
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new poster
Registered: 30/04/2007
Posts: 2
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
The whole thing was of course a grand conspiracy of Tony's to have Vixy join his online world
Eeheehee. I suppose it's only fair. I snared him into Livejournal a while back.
And thanks frog51.
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#297786 - 01/05/2007 15:19
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: vixy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
The whole thing was of course a grand conspiracy of Tony's to have Vixy join his online world
Eeheehee. I suppose it's only fair. I snared him into Livejournal a while back.
I fail to see the fairness... this BBS (or more correctly, the membership) knows everything, as you've just found out, but what's Livejournal have going for it?!?
At any rate, welcome.
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#297787 - 01/05/2007 15:28
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
but what's Livejournal have going for it?!?
Her.
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#297788 - 01/05/2007 23:57
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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#297789 - 02/05/2007 00:25
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Phew, good deal. That's the best news I've heard coming out of a scam in a long time.
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- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#297790 - 02/05/2007 15:34
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Phew, good deal. That's the best news I've heard coming out of a scam in a long time.
This gets my vote for best post applicable to both a main thread, and its hijacked comments. 
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#297791 - 02/05/2007 18:56
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: RobotCaleb]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Get a room!
We have a room, and you're in it.
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#297792 - 02/05/2007 18:58
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Phew, good deal. That's the best news I've heard coming out of a scam in a long time.
Not so fast. I would not be surprised if the company tried to fight it and insist that they are legitmate. The CC company was nice about it during Mom's intital call, but when they try to follow up with the scammers, who knows what will happen.
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#297793 - 02/05/2007 22:40
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Hm.... might be tough to weigh in on the "side of good" if few scammed people are calling to refute. Critical mass gets the credit card company's attention (once, someone I know had their card PROACTIVELY stopped and replaced as part of a huge fraud prevention).
I thought there was a governmental department that cracked down on all MLM "companies" with a vengance?
Good luck. And welcome Vixxy; nice avatar.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#297794 - 03/05/2007 00:58
Re: Family member taken in by scam. More info?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
Not so fast. I would not be surprised if the company tried to fight it and insist that they are legitmate.
Yes, but usually the CC people take the point of view that they need their customers (i.e., the credit card holders) more than they need the stores that accept the cards.
They usually side with the card holder.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#297796 - 03/05/2007 17:37
Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
Yes, but usually the CC people
As i recall, it used to be (edit: still is) illegal for a shop to offer cash customers a discount that was not available to credit customers, or to charge a credit customer more than a cash customer.
With so many CC companies offering cash back or rewards options these days, I really believe the prohibition on offering cash customers a discount not available to CC customers should be revisited.
Edited by gbeer (03/05/2007 17:38)
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Glenn
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#297797 - 03/05/2007 18:00
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: gbeer]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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It's not illegal, it's simply a matter of their contract with their credit card processor. If you want to take credit cards, you have to agree to Visa/MC/Amex's terms, and that includes no minimum amount, no discounts for cash, no surcharge for credit.
Matthew
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#297798 - 03/05/2007 23:01
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Sure you can write anything you want into a contract. Being able to enforce it is a different matter. Unfortunately, unless congress can be influenced to do something, or a retailer simply ignores it and makes it stick...
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Glenn
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#297799 - 03/05/2007 23:51
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: gbeer]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Well, the blame for that lies entirely on Visa/MC/Amex. All it would take is them coming down hard on a few merchants and word would get out. They don't have to sue them, just refuse to allow them to accept credit cards. It'd really cut into the bottom line of a lot of mini marts and gas stations if they couldn't take credit cards.
Matthew
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#297800 - 04/05/2007 21:54
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
It'd really cut into the bottom line of a lot of mini marts and gas stations if they couldn't take credit cards.
Stores actually have to pay for credit card transactions, so in reality, accepting credit cards is one of those things that cuts into their bottom line. Is a store's acceptance (or not) of credit cards really a factor in John Q Public's decision to shop there? I know it isn't for me -- especially with the prevalence of ATM/debit cards (and POS debit card transactions don't cost the merchant anything).
One of the busiest grocery stores in my neck of the woods doesn't accept credit cards at all, and it doesn't seem to be hurting their bottom line -- on the contrary, it seems to be improving it. Whether or not a small store would see similar result, I don't know. Arco (a west-coast gas station, a subsidiary of BP, I think) seems to do fine without taking credit cards, too.
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#297801 - 04/05/2007 21:58
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
Arco (a west-coast gas station, a subsidiary of BP, I think) seems to do fine without taking credit cards, too.
Every Arco I've ever been to charges .45 cents for every Debit card transaction. Cash carries no premium. Either way, they always have the cheapest gas by a LONG shot.
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#297802 - 04/05/2007 23:27
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
and POS debit card transactions don't cost the merchant anything.
Actually, POS debit transitions (where you punch in your PIN as if using an ATM) do cost the merchant. The cost though ends up being less then the credit card fees. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I used to use my debit card for larger things at my friends store, and cash on smaller items.
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#297803 - 04/05/2007 23:36
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
Stores actually have to pay for credit card transactions, so in reality, accepting credit cards is one of those things that cuts into their bottom line.
With very few exceptions, only short sighted business owners don't take credit cards. Yes, they cost money to accept, but the vast majority of the population spends more when paying by credit card. I don't know how many times I've limited what I've ordered at a place that only takes cash because I only had six bucks on me. Items that aren't impulse purchases (like gas, utilities, rent, mortgages...) don't quite have the same effect, but they get the benefits of eliminating their accounts receivable, which any place that sends out bills will tell you is valuable.
Quote:
Either way, they always have the cheapest gas by a LONG shot.
Eh, about five to ten cents usually. I buy 12 gallons of gas usually, so I pay a fifty cent premium (approximately 1.5% of my gas costs) to use my credit card vs my debit card, and go to the gas station across the street that's empty instead of packed. Usually well worth it to me, though when traveling where I don't know the gas stations I'll frequently use arco.
Matthew
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#297804 - 05/05/2007 04:20
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: gbeer]
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addict
Registered: 10/11/2000
Posts: 497
Loc: Utah, USA
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Quote:
As i recall, it used to be (edit: still is) illegal for a shop to offer cash customers a discount that was not available to credit customers, or to charge a credit customer more than a cash customer.
With so many CC companies offering cash back or rewards options these days, I really believe the prohibition on offering cash customers a discount not available to CC customers should be revisited.
Visa and MasterCard have language prohibiting a credit card surcharge, but there's no actual prohibition on a cash discount. If you want a source, see the MasterCard merchant rules at http://www.mastercard.com/us/wce/PDF/MERC-Entire_Manual.pdf (specifically Bylaws & Rules, section 9.12.2).
AMEX and Discover are a little different in that they'll allow you to charge a surcharge on their cards, but if you also accept any cards that don't allow a surchage, then you can't add a surchage to AMEX or Discover. Basically, if you take Visa or MasterCard, you can't surchage AMEX or Discover either. Essentially, they don't want you as a merchant to engage in any practice that would put their card at a disadvantage relative to any other card.
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-Aaron
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#297805 - 05/05/2007 07:07
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
Is a store's acceptance (or not) of credit cards really a factor in John Q Public's decision to shop there?
For me it is.
Just about everything I spend goes on my credit card. I currently have $17 cash in my wallet, the remnants of an initial $40 I put there about six months ago. On average I write two, maybe three checks a year. Everything else goes on the credit card.
I am fanatical about annotating and retaining my credit card statements, and I can show you hard evidence of where virtually every dime in the last 15 years has been spent.
A store that doesn't accept my credit card doesn't get my business. Period.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#297806 - 05/05/2007 13:19
Re: Speaking of CC companies? (drifting off topic)
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Arco (a west-coast gas station, a subsidiary of BP, I think) seems to do fine without taking credit cards, too.
I can't remember the last time I actually went inside a filling station. It's certainly not been more than a handful of times over the last few years. I know a couple of times I have because a receipt failed to print, and that's probably more often than the number of times that I've paid cash.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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