#297107 - 21/04/2007 10:30
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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I think if Cho had lived in this country it wouldn't have happened.
It shouldn't have happened here either:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/21/news/web-gun21.php
That said I still am in support of much stricter gun control laws here in the USA.
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#297108 - 21/04/2007 10:33
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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I think if Cho had lived in this country it wouldn't have happened.
I disagree. If he wanted one bad enough, he'd have found one. If I wanted a gun, I could easily get hold of one.
Banning handguns here is great - it stops the spur of the moment killings, but for those who are slowly festering with hate/rage/insanity, they'll still get hold of one if that's their intention.
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#297109 - 21/04/2007 12:51
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: FireFox31]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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The best way to fight gun violience is not to be Big Brother like the UK (sorry guys)
Bwah ha ha ha ha
ROFL!!!
I've still got the ink on my fingers from when I got fingerprinted for going to the US for a skiing trip - hey, no-one ever told me ... did the USSR fingerprint foreign visitors routinely?
Oh and what about the wiretaps for foreign communication?
The NSA? What with their [censored in transit] project and what about [censored in transit]? Answer me that.
Ah, "Homeland Security" - nothing Orwellian about that one eh?
The "PATRIOT" act - gosh, what a coincidence that those initials turned out like that - who woulda guessed! I'll bet an act like that is full of American values like apple pie, civil liberties and the like! Anyone not liking that must be real un-american.
TSA? Ok, that's a joke - or is it they're a joke - never sure.
No-fly lists? Don't you need to be a senator or a dead-terrorist to get on one of them?
And what about those "democratic" elections you have over there?
Puleeez Mr Kettle 
There is no rational argument that supports public ownership of guns and prevents making chemical weapons or explosives in your kitchen.
Having said that, this was a statistical blip that was horrid for the families - almost, but not quite, as bad as having a child run down by a drunk driver. Maybe one who's had a DUI charge in the past. Or maybe one that just gets off totally free to drive around some more? How many of them do you have a year in the entire US, 10? 20? maybe as many as 40?
Or is it in the hundreds or thousands? More?
Actually - forget "almost as bad". It's nowhere near as bad.
Its simply that we like our media to put on a circus where they can entertain us with bloodbaths worthy of the Romans.
Oh, if anyone's interested this weeks New Scientist has an article talking about TV, gaming and the like and the relationship to violence. The scientific analysis behind these is complex and subject to media rebuttal (global warming, cigarettes=cancer anyone?) but there's a new tack...
They are analysing the *strength* of the analysis - meta-analysis. It shows that the evidence for TV/gaming to violence is not quite as strong as the evidence that cigarettes cause cancer but it is stronger than:
* Passive smoking causing lung cancer (2x stronger)
* Condoms reducing HIV (2x stronger)
* Calcium making bones stronger (3x stronger)
* Time spent on homework vs academic success (3x stronger)
So if you believe the science behind any of them then ask yourself why you don't (want to?) believe the science behind violence in society and the media.
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297110 - 21/04/2007 13:06
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
I think if Cho had lived in this country it wouldn't have happened.
I disagree. If he wanted one bad enough, he'd have found one. If I wanted a gun, I could easily get hold of one.
Okay you've got my interest, how exactly would you go about that?
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297111 - 21/04/2007 13:27
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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Okay you've got my interest, how exactly would you go about that?
Mail order from the US?
_________________________
LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297112 - 21/04/2007 15:23
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: LittleBlueThing]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I've still got the ink on my fingers from when I got fingerprinted for going to the US for a skiing trip - hey, no-one ever told me ... did the USSR fingerprint foreign visitors routinely?
Last time I entered the US, I got red-flagged by customs. They searched all my baggage, but they also took out my laptop, turned it on, and searched through my files for about 10 minutes. They said they were looking for "anything illegal", "such as child porn".
Oh, and I'm a US citizen.
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#297113 - 21/04/2007 15:40
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: ]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Banning guns will only take the guns out of the hands of honest people. We already have laws against bloody massacres -- but laws don't stop criminals. And there even is quite a bit of evidence that tighter gun laws cause an increase in violent crime rates, since a disarmed public makes a criminal's cost of doing business much lower, much like it did in that VT classroom that day.
But let's say it were possible to not only outlaw guns, but to eradicate them as well so that even the criminals don't have them. In this scenario, only the ruling elite will have access to these superior fighting tools. This is almost the case in England today. The result is a higher violent crime rate (physically weaker people can no longer defend themselves from young, strong criminals), but the more alarming and dangerous result is the effect it has had on the populace as a whole.
They are now merely sheep, or more accurately, neutered oxen, working their blue/white collar day-to-day jobs in the Big Brother Capital of the world, forfeiting 70% or more of the fruits of their labor to the Bank of England, the Queen, and the international coterie of insider financiers through their utopic Socialist system of control. The same is happening here in the US, but at least we have not yet been fully declawed and the hope of revolution is still alive and well.
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#297114 - 21/04/2007 17:30
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'll just point out that a comparison between the US and the UK in regards to gun control is invalid. There are far too many differences between the countries, politically, geographically, and socially, for there to be a reasonable mapping between the two. A much more realistic comparison might be between the US and Australia.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297115 - 21/04/2007 17:40
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In this scenario, only the ruling elite will have access to these superior fighting tools.
You mean like bazookas, tanks, fighter jets, battleships, and thermonuclear weapons? Unless you're willing to argue that private citizens should have access to all of these and that private citizens can have access to these (I'm pretty sure that I can't afford a battleship, for example), then your argument simply has no teeth.
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Bitt Faulk
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#297116 - 21/04/2007 17:51
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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working their blue/white collar day-to-day jobs in the Big Brother Capital of the world, forfeiting 70% or more of the fruits of their labor to the Bank of England, the Queen, and the international coterie of insider financiers through their utopic Socialist system of control.
In fact, most taxation goes towards education, the national health service, and benefits for the disadvantaged. All those are things I'm happy to see my money spent on -- I can't make it add up to 70%, only 60%, but perhaps you're using out-of-date income tax numbers? I fail to see your apparent argument that with a gun in my hand I'd be less happy to see my money being used for those purposes.
Don't forget that Britain elected its socialist government, despite the existence of a less socialist alternative. Gun control is also massively electorally popular.
Peter
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#297117 - 21/04/2007 18:04
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
I'll just point out that a comparison between the US and the UK in regards to gun control is invalid. There are far too many differences between the countries, politically, geographically, and socially, for there to be a reasonable mapping between the two. A much more realistic comparison might be between the US and Australia.
Okay..... I'm just pleased to be in a country where anyone found carrying a handgun or keeping one at home has it taken off them. I have no need for a gun and I don't see what anyone else needs one for.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#297118 - 21/04/2007 18:21
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: LittleBlueThing]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Okay you've got my interest, how exactly would you go about that?
Mail order from the US?
For air mail this is unlikely (everything is x-rayed), but for some surface mail or containerised freight it would be stupidly easy. It would still be risky, I believe many illegal weapons come from Eastern Europe or are euro-spec blank firers or self-contained air cartridge guns converted (the former being illegal to possess, the latter needing a Firearms Certificate).
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#297119 - 21/04/2007 18:34
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: g_attrill]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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For air mail this is unlikely (everything is x-rayed), but for some surface mail or containerised freight it would be stupidly easy.
Rio made the interesting decision to use "TNT" as the internal code-name for the product which became the Rio Carbon. That project occupied our attention so much at the time that, to us, it became the primary meaning of the word TNT. This resulted, on at least one occasion, in Rio Santa Clara sending over here to Cambridge a box clearly labelled on its customs declaration "TNT Samples" and containing (what to an X-ray machine would be) small, unidentifiable circuit boards. Customs hadn't even opened it.
Peter
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#297120 - 21/04/2007 19:25
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: peter]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
For air mail this is unlikely (everything is x-rayed), but for some surface mail or containerised freight it would be stupidly easy.
Rio made the interesting decision to use "TNT" as the internal code-name for the product which became the Rio Carbon. That project occupied our attention so much at the time that, to us, it became the primary meaning of the word TNT. This resulted, on at least one occasion, in Rio Santa Clara sending over here to Cambridge a box clearly labelled on its customs declaration "TNT Samples" and containing (what to an X-ray machine would be) small, unidentifiable circuit boards. Customs hadn't even opened it.
I had a slight problem a few years ago, I won't go into detail but suffice to say I bought an item from France and it ended up with CID questioning me. It might be that the type package was known by the postal workers though. Another person I know bought an Uzi part from the US (a frame I think, whatever it was it was legal to own), but the seller left in a certain part which wasn't legal to own, a receiver or bolt or something. He ended up in a Crown Court trial and got several years in prison. Luckily he appealed and got the sentence cut to time served, nine months I think.
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#297121 - 22/04/2007 02:50
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: peter]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Don't forget that Britain elected its socialist government, despite the existence of a less socialist alternative. Gun control is also massively electorally popular.
Of course. And the russian citizens supported communism. And the middle eastern average joe thinks it right to treat women like shit. And the ancient aztecs were all for the sacrificing of virgins on occasion. Just because you're willingly drinking the koolaid, it doesn't mean that it isn't a means of control. In fact, that's the only way to do it. Members of cults are always willing participants, yet they are carefully and systematically coerced into that state of mind.
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In fact, most taxation goes towards education, the national health service, and benefits for the disadvantaged. All those are things I'm happy to see my money spent on -- I can't make it add up to 70%, only 60%, but perhaps you're using out-of-date income tax numbers?
Don't forget sales tax and excise taxes. The average London household income is like 35,000 pounds, I believe. It takes a lot less than 60% of that to pay for a year of health insurance for yourself and for a fraction of your childhood education.
But of course you have to pay for roads and such. Why then, do you have taxes on cars and fuel?
A large portion of that money is going towards interest payments on your 400 billion pounds of debt to the Bank of England, a privately owned corporation whoms members control your government to an alarming degree. The Bank loans pounds to the government -- loans secured by public taxation.
You're even further taxed through inflation, caused by fractional reserve lending. While the elite bankers get richer - via electronic creation of currency - your pounds lose purchasing power.
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#297122 - 22/04/2007 07:01
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
In fact, most taxation goes towards education, the national health service, and benefits for the disadvantaged. All those are things I'm happy to see my money spent on -- I can't make it add up to 70%, only 60%, but perhaps you're using out-of-date income tax numbers?
Don't forget sales tax and excise taxes.
He was including sales tax and excise. The highest UK income tax rate, for earnings over £34,600, is 40%. Below that it is 22%.
Sales tax is 17.5%, but doesn't apply to things like food.
That said the effective tax on fuel is too scary to calculate, given that the excise far out ways the cost of the fuel itself.
The top income tax rate was at one time 60%, back in the 1970s I think. If they did that again now there would be a mass exodus of the rich to other countries.
Edit:
Ok, I decided I would calculate the true cost of fuel tax, using this website:
http://www.abd.org.uk/fuel_tax_calculator.htm
The end result is that with the 20,000 miles a year that I drive, the tax on the fuel I used amounts to an extra 3.83% on income tax. Ouch !
Edited by andy (22/04/2007 07:04)
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#297123 - 22/04/2007 09:53
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I assume your house is lined with tinfoil to stop the government controlled signals getting in, right?
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#297124 - 22/04/2007 10:09
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1913
Loc: London
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I assume your house is lined with tinfoil to stop the government controlled signals getting in, right?
I've got one of these too:
http://www.stopabductions.com/
I believe they should be govt subsidised, thats what we pays our taxes for innit?
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#297125 - 22/04/2007 10:17
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: LittleBlueThing]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Oh and what about the wiretaps for foreign communication?
The NSA? What with their [censored in transit] project and what about [censored in transit]? Answer me that.
Anyone else getting the words above censored?
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#297126 - 22/04/2007 10:33
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: pedrohoon]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1913
Loc: London
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Quote:
Anyone else getting the words above censored?
Yeah
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#297127 - 22/04/2007 10:37
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: pedrohoon]
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veteran
Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
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I think it is humor guys.
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#297128 - 22/04/2007 11:17
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: Phoenix42]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1913
Loc: London
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I think it is humor guys.
All of it, or just that bit?
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#297129 - 22/04/2007 11:22
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: Phoenix42]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Ah, OK, I thought it may have something to do with CALEA or ECHELON
_________________________
Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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#297130 - 22/04/2007 13:03
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
I have no need for a gun and I don't see what anyone else needs one for.
Even with all the burglaries, car thievery, and drunken rowdiness that I often hear about?
I don't know much about England, but it seems like a rough neighborhood to me. Why else would they need security cameras outside and inside every building and traffic cameras monitoring the movement of cars. What am I missing?
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- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#297131 - 22/04/2007 13:13
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: FireFox31]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Even with all the burglaries, car thievery, and drunken rowdiness that I often hear about?
Whoa! There's the difference between the US and UK. Your making a huge generalisation about it being a rough neighbourhood! Yes we, like every other country in the world, have some car thieves, drunken people and burglary, but I personally don't feel the need to grab myself a gun and shoot them dead. I have never felt threatened enough to need to attack somebody, let alone shoot them.
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Why else would they need security cameras outside and inside every building and traffic cameras monitoring the movement of cars.
You've been watching too much sensation news!
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#297132 - 22/04/2007 13:32
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
I have no need for a gun and I don't see what anyone else needs one for.
Even with all the burglaries, car thievery, and drunken rowdiness that I often hear about?
I can't really see drunken rowdiness and widespread gun ownership being a great combination.
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#297133 - 22/04/2007 18:03
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: pedrohoon]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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Ah, OK, I thought it may have something to do with CALEA or ECHELON
Surely not.
They would be very 'Big Brother'-ish and that's what the UK was being accused of.... oh wait <sniff> is that irony <sniff>, not sure...
[Yes, The first half was intended as rather acerbic humour - please remember I am British. The second half was serious. BTW Mr Kettle was an allusion too just in case that's colloquial English.]
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297134 - 22/04/2007 18:03
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have no need for a gun and I don't see what anyone else needs one for.
Even with all the burglaries, car thievery, and drunken rowdiness that I often hear about?
I can't really see drunken rowdiness and widespread gun ownership being a great combination.
Surely the definition of 'Redneck'?
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LittleBlueThing
Running twin 30's
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#297135 - 22/04/2007 18:58
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
Quote:
I have no need for a gun and I don't see what anyone else needs one for.
Even with all the burglaries, car thievery, and drunken rowdiness that I often hear about?
I'd rather be punched in the face by someone standing in front of me than shot in the head from 20 meters away.
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I don't know much about England, but it seems like a rough neighborhood to me.
You've obviously not seen much of it then. Major cities possibly.
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Why else would they need security cameras outside and inside every building
Don't know about every building but we have CCTV cameras at work to stop the cleaners from making off with our equipment, it's worked in at least one instance.
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and traffic cameras monitoring the movement of cars.
Being able to check traffic density before you head out is really useful. Every first world country should have it.
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What am I missing?
Dunno.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#297136 - 22/04/2007 19:11
Re: Virginia Tech
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Being able to check traffic density before you head out is really useful. Every first world country should have it.
Ouch.
Ouch!
Ouch!!!!!
Edited by jimhogan (22/04/2007 20:03)
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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