#295614 - 21/03/2007 04:34
SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Obviously there is something I don't understand about pricing on SD memory cards. I am getting ready to replace my faithful old Fuji Finepix 6900 camera with this and have found out that just about all the places that sell the cameras at a discount try to make up for it with extravagant prices for the accessories, such as spare batteries and memory cards. I can understand one store charging more than another for similar product... maybe even double the price from one place to another. But if I can buy this card, what bit of insanity would persuade me to buy this one instead? It is indeed a puzzlement, but I suspect that there really is some reason that I just don't understand. tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#295615 - 21/03/2007 12:30
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I don't know anything about the second one you linked to ("error-free" -- maybe it has built-in ECC to auto-correct bit errors in the files?).
Waitasec.. all SD cards have to have built-in ECC already, since they're based on NAND flash chips. So I still don't know what the fancy price is all about there.
But usually, the price differences are due to:
(1) Camera shops charge a LOT more than elsewhere.
(2) Sandisk and Lexar both charge more, because they have brand recognition and good warranties.
(3) Cards vary (wildly) in read/write speeds. A faster card can make a huge difference in the handling characteristics of many cameras. Things like how long you have to wait to take a picture after "power on" of the camera, how long you have to wait to review a picture just taken, how long you have to wait to take another picture, and so on.
But not all cameras, heck not even most cameras, benefit from the fastest/expensive memory cards.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (21/03/2007 13:00)
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#295616 - 21/03/2007 12:46
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I've always had excellent service with excellent prices on what is arguably the best flash memory product around, from these guys: http://powerinnumbers.com.au/
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#295617 - 21/03/2007 13:47
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
(3) Cards vary (wildly) in read/write speeds. A faster card can make a huge difference in the handling characteristics of many cameras. Things like how long you have to wait to take a picture after "power on" of the camera, how long you have to wait to review a picture just taken, how long you have to wait to take another picture, and so on.
... and whether or not the camera can record a continuous long movie to its memory card instead of a 10-second clip.
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#295618 - 21/03/2007 14:34
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I've always had excellent service with excellent prices on what is arguably the best flash memory product around, from these guys:
http://powerinnumbers.com.au/
That site makes my brain hurt. Are they a store? The menu item on the top for "Products" appears to take you to a description of what CF is.
You say the have the "best flash memory product around." What do you mean by that?
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Matt
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#295619 - 21/03/2007 16:01
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Ridata has generally tested as the fastest flash media for read and write and it's what they sell.
The site design leaves a lot to be desired, that's for sure. Just click the "Go Shopping" text at the very top - it's white on blue. That will take you to a page which lists products on the left and details on the right once you tell them you're not in Australia (Australians have to pay tax).
Shipping to Canada was super fast, taking about 3 days, but costing $22 when I placed my last order. I see now they offer DHL with lower shipping at about $14.
I first used them in 2002 and have since not found a better price on cards this fast. I haven't been in the market lately, so make sure to compare current prices. Back in 2002 the price difference between the Ridata from them and another name-brand like Transcend, Lexar or Sandisk was quite large even after shipping. I think i bought 3 512MB cards at that time for myself and a friend.
Vasa (the owner) and the site are very well known (or were) in digicam forums like DPreview.
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#295620 - 21/03/2007 16:14
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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I don't have too much to add to this thread, but I did want to point out what looks like a great deal for an SDHC card... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1682021114850 bucks? Everyone else seems to sell this capacity card at a MUCH higher rate. I didn't get mine yet, but the reviews on NewEgg are generally favorable... - Jon
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#295621 - 21/03/2007 16:22
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211148
Before I hit buy on this thing (I'm hovering over the buy button. I love impulse purchases on the web), two questions:
1. The manufacturer's web site says "Speed Rate: Class 2". Is that decent, and will it work OK in my Panasonic DMC-FX9 digital camera?
2. It says "SDHC" instead of just "SD". Is there a chance that my camera won't work with this media, or is there a chance it will only be able to use a fraction of the media's capacity?
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#295622 - 21/03/2007 16:22
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I don't have too much to add to this thread, but I did want to point out what looks like a great deal for an SDHC card...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211148
50 bucks? Everyone else seems to sell this capacity card at a MUCH higher rate. I didn't get mine yet, but the reviews on NewEgg are generally favorable...
Wow! That's incredible! Makes me wish my camera could use SDHC cards.
The only thing that worries me about that one is that I'm not sure I'm going with A-Data anymore. I have a 4GB SD card from them, and a week ago I turned on my camera and was greeted with a "memory card error." I can't read it in any of my card readers either... I wasn't happy about that. I think I'll stick with the big name brands from now on...
***** EDIT *****
Sorry, A-Data, I was thinking of another card. The card that failed in my camera was made by PQI. I'll be staying away from them.
Edited by Dignan (21/03/2007 16:37)
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Matt
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#295623 - 21/03/2007 16:25
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I am getting ready to replace my faithful old Fuji Finepix 6900 camera with this and have found out that just about all the places that sell the cameras at a discount try to make up for it with extravagant prices for the accessories, such as spare batteries and memory cards.
And not only that, but if you don't make up the purchase price with the extras, there are a number of those discount camera shops who will suddenly, after taking your order, be "out of stock", or just never ship your camera. Once you start talking about online discount camera shopping, you have to be really cautious about who you buy from. One of my friends had to get his camera by pretending to be a broke and dumb -- "Gosh, I know I'll need the extra batteries and memory cards, but I won't have enough money until I get my next couple of paychecks. You're giving me such a great deal on the camera, though, that I know you'll have great deals on the other stuff, too. I'll definitely order them from you as soon as I can." Prior to that, even though he had called, and been told that his camera was in stock, and available for immediate shipping, he'd been getting the run-around.
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#295624 - 21/03/2007 16:25
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211148
Before I hit buy on this thing (I'm hovering over the buy button. I love impulse purchases on the web), two questions:
1. The manufacturer's web site says "Speed Rate: Class 2". Is that decent, and will it work OK in my Panasonic DMC-FX9 digital camera?
2. It says "SDHC" instead of just "SD". Is there a chance that my camera won't work with this media, or is there a chance it will only be able to use a fraction of the media's capacity?
Class 2 is slow - if your camera has a VERY FAST mode, it might not work...
Your camera MUST support SDHC for that card to work. You'd also need to get an SDHC card reader. I ordered the Sandisk MicroMate from Amazon. Or you could your camera to USB...
I'm checking to see if the FX9 can use SDHC now Tony...
- Jon
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#295625 - 21/03/2007 16:26
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Quote:
It says "SDHC" instead of just "SD". Is there a chance that my camera won't work with this media
A very good chance. Your camera has to support SDHC for it to work at all.
Matthew
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#295626 - 21/03/2007 16:28
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Bruno, I think you might want to shop elsewhere next time. The site you linked is pretty expensive. I'm looking at Newegg right now, and I think they have about 25 different 1GB SD cards that are less expensive than they sell the RiData for.
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Matt
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#295627 - 21/03/2007 16:31
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: matthew_k]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Thanks, Jon and Matthew. From the looks of things, my camera doesn't support SDHC. When I do a comparison side-by-side at DPReview with a newer camera, the newer ones specifically say SDHC, and the DMC-FX9 doesn't say that. Glad I asked before buying. 
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#295628 - 21/03/2007 16:33
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Tony - yeah, it looks that way. I am planning to use the card in this: http://www.garmin.com/products/zumo/My Canon SD800 is also supposed to support SDHC, so I'll try that too... - Jon
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#295629 - 21/03/2007 16:47
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Like I said, it "used" to be the cheapest. Newegg didn't have anything that came close the last time I used them. Plus Newegg didn't ship to Canada (do they now?) The pricing on SD media seems to be all over the map. With 4GB cards costing anywhere from $30 to $150. Ugh. Don't forget to compare similar products though. The super high speed cards will be a lot faster than the slower ones when transfering stuff to your computer over an adapter. The larger the card the more important in terms of time saving. But if you're in the market for a 1GB card which is a decent size for most people, then I'd just pick one up locally. Some people prefer to use many smaller cards that one large one. Flash is cheap enough now to use once and then throw away or shelf like film. Wow.
Edited by hybrid8 (21/03/2007 16:50)
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#295630 - 21/03/2007 16:56
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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The product made me itch for more capacity, so I'm searching around looking for a bigger-than-1gb card for my DMC-FX9. I saw one of the customer reviews of a 4gb SD card say this: Quote:
Will not work in most digital cameras, they require a 4gb card to have SDHC formatting, and wont be able to read a SD card 4gb
What exactly does that mean?
Does it mean that my camera also won't read a 4gb SD card?
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#295631 - 21/03/2007 17:43
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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You know, I believe that the SD standard only goes to 2GB, though there ARE companies that are selling larger than 2GB SD cards, but... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd_card#Compatibility_issues_with_2GB_and_larger_cardsSo SDHC has come along which allows larger sizes. You'd need devices that support it though. Wikipedia says that Class 2 is 2MB/s, btw. - Jon
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#295632 - 21/03/2007 18:48
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I still can't believe these limits put in place on devices like this. Why did the makers of the SD standard decide to cap it at 2gb? I guess the constant limits of IDE taught storage people nothing. Really annoying when something like this has a useful life of only 6 years in the case of the base SD standard.</rant>
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#295633 - 21/03/2007 19:26
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Tom, you can just use multiple cards - which is actually safer from many perspectives. If traveling and you lose your camera you may still have a card full of images that you haven't lost. If one card goes tits up, you still have the images on the other. Etc.. With 2GB the inconvenience of swapping cards isn't that great while using P&S cameras with current sensor resolutions topping out at 10mp and compressed formats like JPEG.
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#295634 - 21/03/2007 19:30
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
The product made me itch for more capacity, so I'm searching around looking for a bigger-than-1gb card for my DMC-FX9. I saw one of the customer reviews of a 4gb SD card say this:
Quote:
Will not work in most digital cameras, they require a 4gb card to have SDHC formatting, and wont be able to read a SD card 4gb
What exactly does that mean?
Does it mean that my camera also won't read a 4gb SD card?
All I know is that you can get SD cards up to 4GB. I've never seen an 8GB card. Any higher and you're talking about SDHC.
I currently can't use my 4GB SD card, but I think that's a failed card, not my camera, because it was working before...
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Matt
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#295635 - 21/03/2007 19:37
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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That wikipedia entry was very informative, Jon, thanks. It seems to indicate that anything larger than a 1gb card might not work in my camera. It hints that those nonstandard 2gb-4gb cards might work in some devices, but doesn't go as far as linking to a compatibility list.
I wonder where I could look to discover if my camera supports either the 2gb or 4gb SD cards. A 4gb card in my camera would be a wonderful thing, if it could work.
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#295636 - 21/03/2007 19:45
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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But what if I have an SD based MP3 player, or an SD based thumb drive and want a larger then 2gb card? It just seems weird to limit storage of any device to something that based on normal growth will outlive the specification in such a short time. Sure, 2gb probably seemed quite large when the first 32 and 64 meg SD cards shipped in late 2000, but all they needed to do is look at the rapid growth of the hard drive capacity at the time to get an idea of how quickly the format might scale up.
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#295637 - 21/03/2007 19:52
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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It's hard to believe in this day and age how any data storage specification could be designed with any kind of low ceiling like that.
I mean, I can understand the need to pre-spec the number of addressing bits, but jeez people, if there's gotta be a top end, at least make it astronomical.
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#295638 - 21/03/2007 19:57
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Tony, try the www.dpreview.com forum under Panasonic. If it isn't already in there, post a note and I'm sure you'll get a quick answer. I'm sure the 2GB will work, but doubt the 4GB will... - Jon
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#295639 - 21/03/2007 20:18
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
But what if I have an SD based MP3 player, or an SD based thumb drive and want a larger then 2gb card?
One reason some large SD cards don't work in, say, the Rio S50, is that their power requirements, particularly their inrush current at startup, are much higher than those of the smaller cards available in days of yore.
Peter
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#295640 - 21/03/2007 20:58
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It would seem that at least part of the problem is the questionable decision to use the FAT16 filesystem, which has a maximum size of 2GB, instead of FAT32, which has a maximum size of 8TB, or UDF, which has a maximum size of 1YB (that is, a little over a quadrillion TB).
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Bitt Faulk
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#295641 - 21/03/2007 23:43
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
maximum size of 1YB (that is, a little over a quadrillion TB).
I wonder how long it'll be before Paul has a couple of those in his empeg?
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#295642 - 22/03/2007 13:11
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
The product made me itch for more capacity, so I'm searching around looking for a bigger-than-1gb card for my DMC-FX9. I saw one of the customer reviews of a 4gb SD card say this:
Quote:
Will not work in most digital cameras, they require a 4gb card to have SDHC formatting, and wont be able to read a SD card 4gb
What exactly does that mean?
Does it mean that my camera also won't read a 4gb SD card?
I'm using a ScanDisk 4G CF card in my Camera (Cannon Digital Rebel Xt) with no problems.
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#295643 - 22/03/2007 13:23
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: Tim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Quote:
The product made me itch for more capacity, so I'm searching around looking for a bigger-than-1gb card for my DMC-FX9. I saw one of the customer reviews of a 4gb SD card say this:
Quote:
Will not work in most digital cameras, they require a 4gb card to have SDHC formatting, and wont be able to read a SD card 4gb
What exactly does that mean?
Does it mean that my camera also won't read a 4gb SD card?
I'm using a ScanDisk 4G CF card in my Camera (Cannon Digital Rebel Xt) with no problems.
SD not CF. SDHC is a different protocol which is why you need special support for it in the device.
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#295644 - 22/03/2007 13:57
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tman]
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veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1529
Loc: Arizona
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Ahhh, gotcha. I see SD and think of ScanDisk for some reason 
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#295645 - 22/03/2007 23:57
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
size of 1YB (that is, a little over a quadrillion TB).
I shudder to think of the day when we're transferring YBs like e-mail attachment. "Darnit, my mail quota's too low. Give me more of those Yoda Bytes."
That's two orders of magnitude greater than the largest byte size I'd ever heard of. Someday, I'll laugh at that terrabyte SnapServer at work like a Bernoulli drive.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#295646 - 23/03/2007 23:56
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
Once you start talking about online discount camera shopping, you have to be really cautious about who you buy from.
Boy, have I ever had an education during the past week about this!
I am becoming convinced that online discount camera store is synonymous with sleaze.
I found stores that want to charge me $70 to ship a three pound box, stores where the salesman called me a liar (Actual words: "You're lying to me.") when I informed him that I didn't want to buy his $139 spare battery because I had already purchased one the previous week for $6.95 on eBay, stores that offer the camera I want at an amazing low price, but if you investigate carefully and ask the right questions you find out that what you are getting is the bare camera -- no battery, no memory card, no battery charger, no camera strap, no software, no warranty, nothing but the bare camera. All of the pieces that come pre-packaged from the factory are removed, and sold separately as options at incredibly preposterous prices. I mean, prices like $139 for a $7 battery, $239 for a $12 memory card, $149 for a $14 filter.
I have finally seen the light, and realized that bargain shopping is not the way for me to shop for a camera. I picked a seller with an eBay store who is selling cameras for about $150 more than the bargain-basement sellers, but whose accessories are priced reasonably. I talked with the manager, and he agreed to ship the camera to Alaska for the same price he ships it in the continental US. He was actually happy to talk with me, even though he knew I wasn't going to buy anything today (because I called late and the sales department goes home early on Fridays) and he was willing to be flexible.
I'll be paying about $560 (with shipping) for a camera I had naively thought I would get for about $450. I guess it's really true -- you get what you pay for.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#295647 - 24/03/2007 15:40
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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What model did you get? Did you check Abe's? I wouldn't hesitate to buy another camera from Abe's. They're a good store.
*edit*
Sorry, just checked your initial post. Abe's appears to be selling it for $464. Did they strike you as sleazy when you talked to them?
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Matt
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#295648 - 24/03/2007 17:32
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Well, if you trust a no-name brand of flash memory, today's Woot is a 4GB SD card for $25. I'm tempted, but I think I'll stick with a name I trust. I've already had one card go bad on me.
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Matt
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#295649 - 24/03/2007 17:41
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: Dignan]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Well, if you trust a no-name brand of flash memory, today's Woot is a 4GB SD card for $25. I'm tempted, but I think I'll stick with a name I trust. I've already had one card go bad on me.
Hm. Can't find out much about this card. Their website, Connect3d tells you very little.
This looks like a standard SD card, not an SDHC - so Tony, it may work with your camera. I believe that this manufacturer is using this trick (from Wikipedia) to get 4GB in an SD card (although it only talks about 2GB...):
"To make 2GByte card, the Maximum Block Length (READ_BL_LEN=WRITE_BL_LEN) shall be set to 1024 bytes. However, the Block Length, set by CMD16, shall be up to 512 bytes to keep consistency with 512 bytes Maximum Block Length cards (Less than and equal 2GByte cards)."
That trick also appears to make compatibility an issue...
I dunno about that brand. I just bought a 2GB A-Data card (Turbo line - they claim 150x speed) for my camera for 30 bucks from Newegg. The Woot is a good deal, but the brand is still dubious, IMHO...
- Jon
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#295650 - 25/03/2007 00:57
Re: SD Memory Card pricing puzzle
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Quote:
Did you check Abe's? I wouldn't hesitate to buy another camera from Abe's. They're a good store.
Abe's appears to be selling it for $464. Did they strike you as sleazy when you talked to them?
Abe's is not one of the stores I talked to.
The $560 price I am working from is a package deal -- $520 for the FZ50 with the standard equipment: 32 MB card, 710 MAH lithium ion battery, USB cable, A/V cable, lens cap, software CDs, and lens hood. Then, they throw in an accessory kit at no additional charge: Wide angle lens attachment, 2 GB high speed card, a card reader, camera carrying case, 60" tripod, lens cleaning kit. Finally, $40 shipping to make the $560 total.
Possibly I could do better by shopping for all the various bits and pieces at various different places, but I am so tired of this whole rat race that I have reached the point where I just don't care any more. Just gimme the damn camera and if I spend $50 more than the best deal I could have gotten, so be it. (If I bought the camera at Abe's and then purchased the accessories listed above from Abe's, it would actually cost me more than $560.)
The camera itself seems pretty impressive. Read the review at dpreview. Of course maybe I don't know as much about photography (particularly digital photography) as I like to think I do and there may be bad things I didn't see through my rose-colored classes. I haven't ordered the camera yet, so if anybody knows some reason(s) I shouldn't, this would be a good time to let me know!
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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