#293200 - 31/01/2007 11:23
Windows Vista
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
I've had RC1 running for a while now (a few months maybe). It is kind of hard to see exactly what it offers over XP. When XP came out, I installed it on my machine at the office (I think it replaced ME, a true dog) but I can't see what I'm supposed to get out of Vista that XP doesn't provide.
Am I missing something about Vista? 5 years in development seems like a long time given what I've seen. Is there a lot more under the hood that I haven't seen?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293201 - 31/01/2007 11:46
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
Am I missing something about Vista? 5 years in development seems like a long time given what I've seen. Is there a lot more under the hood that I haven't seen?
Lots more.
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293202 - 31/01/2007 13:21
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
|
It's been in development longer than 5 years. And they ripped a lot of planned functionality and features out of the first release.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293203 - 31/01/2007 13:29
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: peter]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
Interesting read which brings me to another point. Outside of deployment on new PCs (inertia), how does their business model even work? The numbers I've heard on development cost ($6B to $10B) and the implication that not many (relatively speaking) copies will be sold for upgrades, etc, why did they even bother? The new Office suite runs fine on XP (supposedly) but I can't see even that upgrade being worth it even for power users of Office.
We probably have 400 PCs in our company (over which I have some influence on software) that do nothing more than check emails, light word processing and light spreadsheet use, it makes you wonder why we have a copy of Office running on all of them.
My relatively short exposure to Ubuntu has been mostly pleasant with the exception of connectivity within a Windows network environment (sharing on the Linux box is more complicated than seems to be necessary). The UI is simple enough with enough in common with the "Windows" experience for any reasonable user to transition pain free. We (obviously) don't run games and most people don't run specialized software such as AutoCad or some of our even more specialized software such as GIS or modelling programs.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293204 - 31/01/2007 13:36
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
|
I think you have a good point. As a consumer when Apple, for example, release a new OS revision that I have to pay for they make it pretty clear what I am getting for my money, but I can't see at the moment what I get for my £100 with Vista, apart from the need to upgrade my PC. I think XP is great. I won't be swapping unless I bag a free copy from some where. But even then the only computer hardware I can see myself in future will be made by Apple, I need 2 PC's (one for CCTV, other for Linux firewall) and I have plenty of spare motherboards etc... kicking around to keep them going for a good while. So I'm saving my money up for my next Mac  Cheers Cris.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293205 - 31/01/2007 14:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
Interesting read which brings me to another point. Outside of deployment on new PCs (inertia), how does their business model even work? The numbers I've heard on development cost ($6B to $10B) and the implication that not many (relatively speaking) copies will be sold for upgrades, etc, why did they even bother?
The Vista DRM core is a strategic necessity for them, to forceably lock users into MSware in the future (and lots of other such benefits, for MS not the user).
That's why they bothered.
Plus, the per-unit manufacturing cost is essentially zero for preloaded software, so on 100 million new PCs with Vista forced upon the users, MS makes about ($100/copy?) ten billion dollars in revenue, easily offseting development costs. And it'll get preinstalled on a lot more than a mere 100 million new boxes..
Of course, they could have just just continued with XP on those boxes, and fired their development staffs instead, with the same net profit. Except they've got competition now, so they really do need to update the software once in a while.
Cheers
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293206 - 31/01/2007 14:45
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
In regards to Office, the business model used to be:
Enough people upgrade Office for no reason other than that's it's there or acquire a new version of Office with a new computer that, because the new Office files are not compatible with old versions of Office, everyone who wants to communicate with those arbitrary upgraders also has to upgrade.
However, the lack of downward compatibility was fixed in Office XP, IIRC. I don't know if that trend continues with Office 2007.
However, the basic issue still applies. Enough people upgrade or get the new version bundled that the new features become requirements through various third-party mechanisms that everyone is forced to upgrade. That applies to both Office and the OS.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293207 - 31/01/2007 14:56
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Does anyone know if there's a site that will basically give you a demo of the new Office? I've heard nothing but positive things about the change in menu structures. Several people have said they were shocked that MS was ballsy enough to really change things, and I'm curious to see what they did. I thought there might be a java- or flash- based site that would give you a demo, beyond the usual screenshots.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293208 - 31/01/2007 15:01
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Office OnlineRequires IE. Also: Try Microsoft Office, which is apparently a 60-day downloadable demo.
Edited by wfaulk (31/01/2007 15:07)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293209 - 31/01/2007 15:09
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Wow. It really is a lot different. I wonder if it's in some ways a response to OpenOffice, which obviously had a lot of time spent on it making it function very similarly to Office.
Edited by wfaulk (31/01/2007 15:11)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293210 - 31/01/2007 15:22
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
Wow. It really is a lot different.
I wonder if it's in some ways a response to OpenOffice, which obviously had a lot of time spent on it making it function very similarly to Office.
I heard that it was because they finally realized that their menu structure is horrible. Seriously, it's nearly impossible to find some things in there, even when I know what I'm looking for.
Apparently, part of their focus group questions was asking people what features they wanted to see in Word/Excel/etc, and the majority of the responses were things that the programs could already do, but people didn't know they could. So I think they wanted a better way to present the menus, which I'm all for. Too bad it's still going to cost an insane amount. Personally, I do so little Office-related work at home that I just use Notepad or Google docs and spreadsheets.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293211 - 31/01/2007 16:01
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
Quote:
The Vista DRM core is a strategic necessity for them, to forceably lock users into MSware in the future (and lots of other such benefits, for MS not the user).
That's why they bothered.
I have not remotely followed the DRM core... What does their DRM apply to? Audio, Video, Software?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293212 - 31/01/2007 16:28
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Yeah. That encompasses my favorite Office dilemma:
Is that under "Options" or "Configuration"?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293213 - 31/01/2007 16:28
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
Quote:
So I think they wanted a better way to present the menus
I wonder if there's a way to revert to "Classic View"? Admittedly it would defeat the purpose but if you know your way around the current software and up against a deadline, I can see not wanting to learn the new menus on that particular day.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293214 - 31/01/2007 16:28
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
|
One thing I noticed that was a huge turn off for me was that it would not play region free DVD files that I had authored. I don't know if it was WMP, or Vista (Ultimate). I suppose I can author my own DVD's as region 1, but I shouldn't have to. It may just be my system though.
_________________________
-Michael
#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293215 - 31/01/2007 16:35
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293216 - 31/01/2007 16:59
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
However, the lack of downward compatibility was fixed in Office XP, IIRC. I don't know if that trend continues with Office 2007.
Office 2007 defaults to saving to a new XML based format, .docx for Word and newer extensions for the others. It is a zip file with all the XML bits inside, and is completely incompatible with older versions of Office. It can save to a compatible format though, and Microsoft is slowly rolling out converters as well for both Windows and OS X.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293217 - 31/01/2007 17:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
|
Quote:
Enough people upgrade Office for no reason other than that's it's there or acquire a new version of Office with a new computer that, because the new Office files are not compatible with old versions of Office, everyone who wants to communicate with those arbitrary upgraders also has to upgrade.
At the beeb we called it the Office 97 effect.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293218 - 31/01/2007 17:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Vista upgrade flowchartMy biggest issues with Vista so far are: 1. All the cool features were stripped out or toned down. WinFS is a big missing feature. Even Microsoft knew that search in Vista wouldn't be as good as Spotlight in OS X Tiger. 2. The security is annoying, and likely to not be effective. People are going to be tired of it, and turn it off, or click OK to everything. And I don't trust Microsoft saying it is secure. Thats a label that will have to be earned, especially after the "secure" Windows Server 2003 was able to be infected by worms during the install process, a first for any Windows version. 3. Backwards compatibility is a mess. Sure, it runs most old programs, but so many things end up disabling Aero randomly, so for people with certain programs, get used to an inconsistent interface all the time. Microsoft should have just dumped compatibility out of the core OS and put it in a sandbox, ala Classic in OS X for running OS 9 apps. The constant disabling of Aero causes Flip3d, live previews and other UI changes to be turned off, so people won't have a consistent way to switch tasks. 4. Too many versions. This sums it up. The boxed copy should have just gone with what Ultimate is, and been priced decently. Also get rid of the 32/64 bit barrier. 64 bit Windows on x86 still actslike the Itanium version did, and the only reason for that was the split x86 32 bit and ia64. x64 doesn't need that split. If OS X, Linux, and countless variants of Unix don't need that hard split, neither does Windows. There are other issues I have with it, but that is a good start so far. I will admit there are a lot of good improvements in it, but I don't think it is worth it. One good change is the rewritten audio system. No longer do audio drivers sit in the kernel, so crappy Creative drivers shouldn't blue screen the system anymore. Of course, along with this, Microsoft broke hardware accelerated sound support with little warning, so now anyone with those cards will have to wait to regain functionality they once had.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293219 - 31/01/2007 18:50
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
One of the more "interesting" items I've read about Vista is this is the last of the breed (referring to major releases)? I used to be an early adopter of every release of Windows. Now I just can't muster up the energy to upgrade and the battle of specialty program compatibility. Honestly, there's just not enough there visually or added functionality to go through the pain. Sometimes I wish I hadn't tried it before the release. Now it's kind of like... that's it? It's not really about the cost either. They've been talking about it for years now. Underwhelming to me.
At the house, I've moved to OSX and playing with Linux. Perhaps Windows Vista is too familiar to be exciting.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293220 - 31/01/2007 19:12
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
|
We have been playing with it from earliest betas, mostly to look at security functionality, but our conclusion throughout is Baaaaad!
Security-wise I am likely to advise most of my clients to stick with up-to-date XP if they have to use Microsoft, as the 'wonderful' security features MS brought in will actually leave users far less secure.
And from a performance perspective it is just a pig. There is almost nothing it does thatI can't already have under linux or MacOs - and they do it far more elegantly and with less overhead. Same old story I think.
The upside is more and more organisations are becoming hacked off at the whole tie-in thing and are leaving for more open platforms, especially my government clients, so that has to be a good thing!
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293221 - 31/01/2007 19:13
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
It is kind of hard to see exactly what it offers over XP. When XP came out, I installed it on my machine at the office (I think it replaced ME, a true dog) but I can't see what I'm supposed to get out of Vista that XP doesn't provide.
You are echoing what almost every business and trade publication I've seen already says. They all say don't bother unless you're deploying new systems and would be buying new OS's anyway.
I personally like Vista, for a host of reasons, none of which are "I work for microsoft".
But since I don't get an employee discount on it (seriously, how f'd is that?), I am unlikely to upgrade to it on my home PC because it offers me no benefit over XP as of yet.
The biggest benefit I could see for home users is the improved security with the Limited User Access feature. But since I am already capable of preventing malware from running on my home PC in the first place, this feature offers me *personally* no benefit.
There are many improved things about its user interface I like a lot. Its improved Start menu is the first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95. I've now gotten very used to pressing Ctrl-Esc and typing the name of the program I'm looking for. I now miss this feature on my home PC.
Most of the other improvements to the user interface are finally putting Vista back up closer to OSX, which is a happy thing (if not particularly impressive, considering how long OSX has been around).
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293222 - 31/01/2007 20:00
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
Quote:
none of which are "I work for microsoft".
My post wasn't any anti-Microsoft rant or anything like that. I guess i miss the bling of something new. To borrow a worn out phrase, it seems more evolutionary than revolutionary and as the OS "matures", perhaps approaching stagnation. I guess I'm going to miss being bewildered even if for a week or so.
XP was such an improvement over ME... hell I don't know... it's just kind of depressing to not want to rush out and upgrade.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293223 - 31/01/2007 20:09
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
improved security with the Limited User Access feature
Cutting-edge 1964 technology!
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293224 - 31/01/2007 20:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
Quote:
The Vista DRM core is a strategic necessity for them, to forceably lock users into MSware in the future (and lots of other such benefits, for MS not the user).
That's why they bothered.
I have not remotely followed the DRM core... What does their DRM apply to? Audio, Video, Software?
Yes, yes, and yes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293225 - 31/01/2007 21:06
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
My post wasn't any anti-Microsoft rant or anything like that.
I didn't take it as such, no worries.
Quote:
I guess i miss the bling of something new. To borrow a worn out phrase, it seems more evolutionary than revolutionary and as the OS "matures", perhaps approaching stagnation.
It's a funny conflict: On the one hand, they put a huge amount of work behind Windows 2000 and Windows XP, making them the best OSes they possibly could, thus making them useful upgrades that were widely adopted. They sold a lot of them, made a lot of money and solidified market share. But what seemed good then is biting them now. Now they're competing with their own prior versions.
It'd be nice if Vista were so bling that you "just gotta have it". But if that were the case, then XP would have had to kinda suck. And nobody likes a company that deliberately makes sucky products just because they want to sell the next upgrade...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293226 - 31/01/2007 21:10
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
Quote:
nobody likes a company that deliberately makes sucky products just because they want to sell the next upgrade...
You just gotta do it like the automobile manufacturers. Everybody likes a new car for the smell alone.
And Millineum Edition did suck.
Edited to spell out Millineum Edition because ME just wasn't right there.
Edited by blitz (31/01/2007 21:11)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293227 - 31/01/2007 23:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
|
Quote:
There are many improved things about its user interface I like a lot. Its improved Start menu is the first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95.
What the hell is with the "Power" button on the start menu sending the computer to sleep. I'm sure there's probably an option to make it behave as I expect (i.e *really* turn the computer off), but why it doesn't do that as standard, well I don't know!
There's nothing that I've seen in the glossy bits that make me want to use it. I had it on a dev machine at work to test our software, the security on it annoyed the hell out of me. I suffer from motion sickness and the screen fading in and out all the time made me feel sick!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293228 - 01/02/2007 00:10
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
There are many improved things about its user interface I like a lot. Its improved Start menu is the first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95. I've now gotten very used to pressing Ctrl-Esc and typing the name of the program I'm looking for. I now miss this feature on my home PC.
I like that part as well, since I use Quicksilver on the Mac a lot to launch programs. I wanted this functionality on my XP dev box at work, and found Launchy.
Of course, I'm not getting much use out of the Vista start menu. I currently do have it installed on my Mac on the Windows partition, but only for some quick checking of the game on Vista. Once I'm done with that later this week, dd is being run to put back my XP install. I had considered keeping Vista on here, but much like my Dell laptop, this machine doesn't go to sleep properly under Vista. XP sleep works fine, so how Vista managed to break this, I'm not sure.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293229 - 01/02/2007 01:16
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
member
Registered: 31/12/2001
Posts: 121
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293230 - 01/02/2007 01:38
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: sn00p]
|
old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
|
Quote:
What the hell is with the "Power" button on the start menu sending the computer to sleep. I'm sure there's probably an option to make it behave as I expect (i.e *really* turn the computer off), but why it doesn't do that as standard, well I don't know!
Yeah, you can change that in the power options, but it's still stupid. I'd rather save more power by shutting down my system every night than put my computer to sleep.
_________________________
-Michael
#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293231 - 01/02/2007 01:53
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Waterman981]
|
old hand
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 931
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
|
What do you think of the new Media Center on Vista? It still doesn't have a 'insert' option for songs which is very frustrating.....
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293232 - 01/02/2007 02:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: sn00p]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
|
Quote:
What the hell is with the "Power" button on the start menu sending the computer to sleep. I'm sure there's probably an option to make it behave as I expect (i.e *really* turn the computer off), but why it doesn't do that as standard, well I don't know!
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293233 - 01/02/2007 04:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
|
I feel compelled to get Vista and will probably get Ultimate soon. Can anyone verify if you can do a clean install from the upgrade version like you can with XP or 2K I have been reading conflicting reports around the net about this.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293234 - 01/02/2007 05:43
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: msaeger]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Upgrades of Vista must be started from inside an existing install of Windows. The workaround some people found on a new disk is to install Vista once, but don't enter a product key on the installer. That then lets you format the drive, and put down a clean image. Once installed, you start the installer inside Vista, choose custom, and provide it the key. Quote:
I feel compelled to get Vista and will probably get Ultimate soon.
I do have to ask. Why? Yes, it's new and shiny. But overall when even our resident MS employee isn't going to upgrade to Vista at home, it's a sign it might not be worth it yet.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293235 - 01/02/2007 11:49
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
veteran
Registered: 25/04/2000
Posts: 1525
Loc: Arizona
|
Quote:
Does anyone know if there's a site that will basically give you a demo of the new Office? I've heard nothing but positive things about the change in menu structures.
I still don't know if I like the new menu structure, those 'ribbons' take some getting use to if you know the old menu system. There are some other compelling reasons that I will probably end up using 2007 fulltime on my machines other than a test laptop, but the UI isn't one of those reasons.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293236 - 01/02/2007 12:23
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
Quote:
Yes, yes, and Yes
Is the plan to have video cards with HDMI input and or most likely output? If so, what good does it do to run it though a PC if the whole idea is to protect the content in such a way as you can't manipulate it? From my experience with MediaCenter (and even Front Row), appliance style interfaces ala Tivo (and now my Direct HR20-700) are much more intuitive. I judge a lot of that based on what my wife can and cannot do.
If it is just content delivery via internet, give me a dedicated box.
What are the implications for MythTV or any Linux PC for HDMI?
Edit: I guess ATI already has HDMI cards. Will Linux (being opensource) be able to support HDMI?
Edited by blitz (01/02/2007 12:26)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293237 - 01/02/2007 12:26
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
|
One practical reason is I want MCE.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293238 - 01/02/2007 15:26
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: msaeger]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
One practical reason is I want MCE.
You mean WMC. (Everything inside Vista seems to have Windows appended onto it). Windows Internet Explorer, Windows Mail, Windows Media Center. I guess Microsoft figured taking the name of the product off the boot screen would make people forget it's windows, so it's up to the programs now to identify the OS.
Keep in mind to get Media Center, all you need is Home Premium. It does seem to be a decent upgrade over where MCE2005 was, and still works seamlessly with the leaf blower 360. If you are looking for CableCard support, you cannot build your own solution though. CableCard compatible Media Centers will only be sold as a complete package from OEMs. Seems the CableLabs group didn't like the idea of an open platform.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293239 - 01/02/2007 15:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: msaeger]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Can anyone verify if you can do a clean install from the upgrade version like you can with XP or 2K
Spider posted a link to the exact steps earlier in the thread.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293240 - 01/02/2007 15:44
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
Edit: I guess ATI already has HDMI cards. Will Linux (being opensource) be able to support HDMI?
HDMI, yes.
HDCP, very unlikely.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293241 - 01/02/2007 15:50
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Waterman981]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Quote:
What the hell is with the "Power" button on the start menu sending the computer to sleep. I'm sure there's probably an option to make it behave as I expect (i.e *really* turn the computer off), but why it doesn't do that as standard, well I don't know!
Yeah, you can change that in the power options, but it's still stupid. I'd rather save more power by shutting down my system every night than put my computer to sleep.
More specifically, to change that in the power options, you must go into the advanced power options for your current power profile. It's under control panel, power options, Change Plan Settings, Change Advanced power settings, power options, advanced settings, power button and lid, start menu power button.
What I find most ironic is that if you rightclick on that startmenu powerbutton and select "Properties", it does not give you the option to change its properties (instead it takes you to the startmenu property sheet, which doesn't have behaviors for the startmenu powerbutton). Hmph.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293242 - 01/02/2007 19:25
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
|
Quote:
It's under control panel, power options, Change Plan Settings, Change Advanced power settings, power options, advanced settings, power button and lid, start menu power button.
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! All to get it to do what the menu says it does. What a pile of garbage. That's probably not politically correct, or sensitive to those of you who work for/love Microsoft products, but its the truth.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293243 - 01/02/2007 21:58
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
|
Lack of cable card support doesn't bother me currently I can't see giving up Tivo for my TV recording needs. I just want to stream music and videos to my leaf blower 360 and using it as an extender seems to work better than just using windows media connect.
I saw the hack about doing the double install of vista but I have been confused by some people saying you can do a clean install of some vista versions so I wasn't sure who was right. I think it is really stupid that they decided to do this. I don't resintall very much anymore so it probably wouldn't matter much but it's still very silly.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293244 - 02/02/2007 00:42
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: TigerJimmy]
|
old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
|
Quote:
Quote:
It's under control panel, power options, Change Plan Settings, Change Advanced power settings, power options, advanced settings, power button and lid, start menu power button.
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! All to get it to do what the menu says it does. What a pile of garbage. That's probably not politically correct, or sensitive to those of you who work for/love Microsoft products, but its the truth.
Yeah, that set of instructions to do something so simple pretty much sums it all up, as far as I'm concerned.
_________________________
Dave
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293245 - 02/02/2007 08:17
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Cris]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
|
Quote:
I won't be swapping unless I bag a free copy from some where
You can come and play with mine, when the freeby upgrade arrives from Holland, although, this far down this thread I'm in two minds whether I want to install it!
I've just purchased an Acer Aspire Idea 510 and its going back to Acer for the second time in a month: The twin Freeview tuners can't pick up Emley Moor: A thirty quid Goodmans box and my 4 DigiTv's do the job faultlessly. But it's a smart bit of kit: Low profile; Silent and bristling with connectivity.
I gave up on MediaCenter(re), the first week and went back to Winamp.
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293246 - 02/02/2007 12:37
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: boxer]
|
old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
|
Quote:
I gave up on MediaCenter(re), the first week and went back to Winamp.
You know, I've always loved Winamp. There are times I even find myself wishing it was available for OSX, though I suppose I could just use XMMS. The one thing that led me to finally give up on it was the lack of (and, per the Winamp developers, the promise of no future plans to add) Unicode support.
Now they've finally added it, but I no longer use Windows on a regular basis.
_________________________
Dave
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293247 - 02/02/2007 16:07
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
|
I've been running the Office 2007 beta for about 6 months now. Normally I'm not rushing out to upgrade to the newest version of Office, as the enhancements aren't that necessary. This release, however, is definitely worth the upgrade. The new menu structure alone is worth it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293248 - 02/02/2007 16:20
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Cybjorg]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1913
Loc: London
|
I still use Winamp as my media player of choice
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293249 - 03/02/2007 20:35
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
|
At my IT position, I recently announced that I would not be upgrading to Vista or Office 2007, at least not until their first service packs. By then, I hope they've fixed issues discovered by early adopters and allowed users (and MVPS) to post answers to common questions on Usenet. I'm not trusting the throughput of my workplace on such unproven technology. Office 2007, though, will be worthwhile once the new UI is mastered. Their Groove collaboration software is very good. I've been using it (pre-MS-acquisition) since 2002 and this tight integration with Office could (should) change workflow in every organization. Quote:
he first new version of the Start menu that I like better than the classic one from Win95
I'll take that as a strong recommendation, Tony. I'm die hard Win95 Start Menu, but it's just not efficient enough for users I support.
Good point on Vista having to compete with XP. It's going to be a hard sell to me.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293250 - 04/02/2007 03:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
|
Mark, the article which you linked has been giving me the shivers all night. So a major reason for Vista is to ingrain DRM fundamentally into Windows? Then use that system to restrict access to media? Or, why stop there; why not restrict access to software, web pages, and even your saved files?! But ingraining DRM seems like a move against home users. How could MS jusfity this "feature" to the business crowd? Or are they snowballing them with others (TCO, ROI, etc etc)? It's frightening. I once said I'd never use XP because of its crayola interface (which I learned how to disable and avoid). Looks like I've got a lot more reasons to say I'll never use Vista.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293251 - 05/02/2007 13:50
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tahir]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
|
Quote:
I still use Winamp as my media player of choice
Personally, I love WMP11 and I'm really annoyed that it doesn't install on W2K3 (which is what I'm using at work). WMC (formerly MCE) is looking quite good these days, too.
_________________________
-- roger
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293252 - 06/02/2007 04:36
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293253 - 06/02/2007 06:35
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
|
Our IT department sent out a mass email:
Every employee is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN from installing Vista, IE7, or Office 2007 on any company computer.
In fact, since they must open the can of worms required to upgrade hardware, etc. company-wide they have announced that they are also evaluating MacOS X and Linux.
We had been mostly Windows, with a little Solaris.
With the IT department mostly unwilling to support Mac or Linux.
I have a feeling that's about to change.
So it looks like Vista may actually decrease our Windows usage company-wide.
Is anyone else seeing this effect at their employers?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293254 - 06/02/2007 14:40
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: music]
|
addict
Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
|
Quote:
In fact, since they must open the can of worms required to upgrade hardware, etc. company-wide they have announced that they are also evaluating MacOS X and Linux.
So it looks like Vista may actually decrease our Windows usage company-wide.
Is anyone else seeing this effect at their employers?
Wow, is this is any indication at all (of course a sample size on one...) of what IT depts. are advising, I wonder how this will go down in the history annals of Microsoft. I've got one Windows PC left in my house (just for region free DVD playback) if I can get my PS3 to do region free (install Linux pehaps) it will be down to zero. I've also got one copy on a Macbook for work use only (Real Estate web based applications, yuck!).
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293255 - 06/02/2007 14:48
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: petteri]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
|
If it's any consolation, a number of my larger clients (generally 50,000 employees or more) only just completed their transition from NT to XP at the end of 2006, and one is still doing it, because they do not like to have to change everything. I am unlikely to recommend Vista from a usability perspective in the next 2 years, and unless they sort security, much longer.
Of course this is just my opinion, my employer may or may not have the same one:-)
We are definitely seeing an upturn in offices willing to try open source! Because of the general annoyance value of Microsoft.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293256 - 06/02/2007 15:10
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: music]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
Our IT department sent out a mass email:
Every employee is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN from installing Vista, IE7, or Office 2007 on any company computer.
...
Is anyone else seeing this effect at their employers?
It sounds to me like your company might be a little different from the norm. Where do you work that the IT department would have to keep people from installing entire operating systems? I think that the average worker in most companies wouldn't be able to install much more than IE7, and even then it would probably just be through Windows Update. Our firm has its own update server, so we choose what gets updated, and we advise users against upgrading to IE7, just because it's an unknown quantity at this point.
And so is Vista. I think it's ludicrous to declare Microsoft in trouble because businesses aren't moving to Vista just a couple months after it's been released (to businesses). I've worked at three companies so far, and each one of them seems to upgrade their OS almost one/one-half generation late. I started at this firm last March, and they'd just completed their XP upgrade.
I do think that Microsoft will have a little more competition, but Vista will have the benefit of coming pre-installed on a lot of computers.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293257 - 06/02/2007 15:44
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
|
Hahahahahaha - just found this one on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p79F-qdCCDU&eurl=Perfect
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293258 - 06/02/2007 16:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: frog51]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
|
Okay, that one was pretty funny.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293259 - 06/02/2007 17:45
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: frog51]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
*points 5 messages up in the thread*
But yeah, great ad. I think it's one of the better "Get a Mac" ones.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293260 - 06/02/2007 17:57
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
*points 5 messages up in the thread*
But yeah, great ad. I think it's one of the better "Get a Mac" ones.
Agreed, it's a funny one, but I still can't get past the smugness. It's a huge turn-off for me when it comes to Apple.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293261 - 06/02/2007 18:43
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
Agreed, it's a funny one, but I still can't get past the smugness. It's a huge turn-off for me when it comes to Apple.
The smugness of this community didn't seem to turn you off from an empeg. While I may not agree with everything Apple does (still not a big fan of the iPod), I can overlook the smugness of the Apple community simply because I have had a better computing experience since investigating OS X in 2001. I still have issues daily with the way things work in Windows and Office now that I have to deal with them at work again, since many times I find situations where engineers at Microsoft just didn't think something all the way through. It's helped me re-appreciate the simplicity, but also power my Mac has at home.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293262 - 06/02/2007 18:56
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
If only all the PC games were made for Mac, too. I know, it's chicken-and-egg. Ah well.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293263 - 06/02/2007 19:05
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Yeah (and this solution doesn't work for everyone), but if you just run games and nothing else on your PC and leave the real work to an Apple, your PC will fail less often and your productivity will go up.
That said, then your PC becomes a Wintendo, and, especially with the last two generations of consoles, why not just buy a Nintendo (or XBox or Playstation) and eschew the PC altogether?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293264 - 06/02/2007 19:30
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
If only all the PC games were made for Mac, too. I know, it's chicken-and-egg. Ah well.
They are now via Bootcamp, and soon without the reboot via Parallels in their next major version. I'll be interested to see how well it works in Parallels. So far, using Bootcamp for me has been flawless. One package from Apple updates all the drivers, and the only thing Apple doesn't support on my MacBook Pro is the backlit keyboard and display dimming.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293265 - 06/02/2007 22:37
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
|
I played Half Life 2 all the way through on my MBP in bootcamp and it was faster than my PC. As soon as I can get the time to do it I'm formatting my PC, selling it, and running everything off my MBP, including MAYA that I use for work. All the PC server stuff is going on a Mini in the other room. God I can't wait to be rid of this Shuttle. Anyone want a Shuttle?!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293266 - 06/02/2007 22:41
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Agreed, it's a funny one, but I still can't get past the smugness. It's a huge turn-off for me when it comes to Apple.
The smugness of this community didn't seem to turn you off from an empeg.
That argument only works if I think this community is smug. I don't.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293267 - 07/02/2007 00:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
|
You are completely avoiding a potentially better computing platform because of a perceived smugness? Who cares? You don't have to be smug. I'd be surprised if you used Linux if you followed the same avoidance pattern... the user base seems to have the same aura of superiority. But in the end who gives a flip... whatever works better for you and gets your work/play/day done easier and more enjoyably is what matters. Not a perceived attitude of a nebulous group.
Would you not buy a Porsche because of the way you think other Porsche owners act? It just seems like such an odd criteria to limit your experiences with.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293268 - 07/02/2007 02:47
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
why not just buy a Nintendo (or XBox or Playstation) and eschew the PC altogether?
Because first-person shooters and realtime strategy games are still better with a mouse and keyboard.
Too bad I bought my Mac shortly before they went Intel. Then I could be looking forward to the new release of parallels.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293269 - 07/02/2007 13:06
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: loren]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
You are completely avoiding a potentially better computing platform because of a perceived smugness?
Did I say that? When/where did I say that? I said it's a big turn-off! Sheesh!
I would still have to get past other things, high prices being the biggest. Then there's things like familiarity with the OS, concerns about being able to upgrade my hardware like I do now, and finding free programs to replace the ones I love to use as well as for-pay software that meets my needs. These are surmountable obstacles, but only if you have the time and patience to get past them. Right now I don't, and even if I did, I don't have the money.
But if it fits your fanboy attack better, I also want to avoid all the trendy people at the Apple store in my mall. They all dress way cooler than I do.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293270 - 07/02/2007 13:40
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
They all dress way cooler than I do.
Well, of course they do! You're just a "lowly help desk technician", right? 
(from your BBS profile)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293271 - 07/02/2007 13:42
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293272 - 07/02/2007 15:33
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
I would still have to get past other things, high prices being the biggest.
The default configuration for the tower-style Mac (Mac Pro) on the Apple store has these specs:
- Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon "Woodcrest" processors
- 1GB memory (667MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
- NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics with 256MB memory
- 250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive
- 16x double-layer SuperDrive
Their price for it is $2499.
An equivalently configured Dell (Precision 490):
- Two Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5150 2.66GHz, 4MB L2,133
- 1GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 533MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS)
- 256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3450, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
- 250GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM NCQ Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cache
- 16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD™ and Roxio Creator™ Dell Ed
goes for $3287. (The video card was the cheapest 256MB card Dell offered on that system.)
If you select the only direct video-card match (the 512MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 4500, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA), it becomes $4148 vs $4212, still a good $50 cheaper.
Do you still think Macs are more expensive? Okay, fair enough: most PCs don't come with Xeons. And the Mini is slightly more expensive and slower than the cheapest Dell PC you could get. (I tried and couldn't come up with a good equivalent, but we're talking the Mini at $600 and a Dell at about $400.) It also doesn't have expansion slots. So you have an argument if you're trying to buy the absolute cheapest thing possible.
But the notion that Macs are head-and-shoulders more expensive than PCs has been a lie for a long time, as long as you compare app -- uh ... oranges to oranges. It is also true that, before the Mini came along, there was no stripped-down Mac you could buy, which is relevant. And the Mini is more expensive. (Actually, it'd probably be more accurate to compare it against a Shuttle or something like that.)
So there's a lot more to it than just "Macs are too expensive". Not that that statement is totally inaccurate, either.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293273 - 07/02/2007 17:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Bitt, I'm curious as to why you assumed I'd go with a Dell. I would build my own PC. A quick shopping for parts on Newegg to match that Apple shows a result of about $1930.
Please understand, I'm not trying to put down Apple computer products. I'm just saying why I'm not going to use them. There are barriers to my entry into the Mac world that can't be broken down at this point. I'd rather spend my time and money elsewhere. I'm not making an argument for why nobody on the planet should buy Apple. Just myself.
Other thoughts:
- Just so you know, I seriously considered trying a Mac out. I was completely prepared to jump on that Mac Mini test drive thing they had a while back, and the day I went to order one, they killed the promotion.
- I wanted to point out that Apple's 30" monitor is almost half again the price of Dell's ($1800 v $1300).
- much like Macs, I've always avoided iPods. Yes, it's partly the whole smugness thing, but there is a good deal about the iPod that I don't like, so that's hardly the main reason.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293274 - 07/02/2007 17:08
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Dell just seemed a good comparison. Geared towards home users and small businesses. Building it yourself isn't a valid comparison, either. Again, I'll give you that Apple doesn't provide that option, but wasn't it you who just spent weeks arguing with a PC you were building yourself?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293275 - 07/02/2007 18:00
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
Building it yourself isn't a valid comparison
Yes, it is! You still aren't getting that I'm not arguing for all of mankind. I'm arguing for myself! I'm comparing to a self-built system because if tomorrow I was to say "I want a new computer," I would have essentially three options open to me: Apple, Dell (and Gateway/Alienware/etc.), or build it myself. If we're just arguing the price, then other factors like differing OSs aren't in play. Out of those three options, building it yourself will save you the most money.
And yes, I was having a lot of difficulty with a computer I was building. That was a first for the previous 6 PCs I'd built. Wasn't it Tony who was having tons of trouble with a Mac Mini he bought?
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293276 - 07/02/2007 18:05
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
Bitt, I'm curious as to why you assumed I'd go with a Dell. I would build my own PC. A quick shopping for parts on Newegg to match that Apple shows a result of about $1930.
Well, in that case, just pick up a pre-owned Mac off of eBay, for even less.
Cheers
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293277 - 07/02/2007 18:12
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
No, I understand, and yours is a valid reason. It's just that the Mac-bashers have always said "Macs cost more" without ever actually looking at what you get. I'll admit that what you get may be more than you want (from dual Xeons to being preconfigured), but it's not a context-free argument.
That said, I will point out that most of us, were we to buy a Dell PC, would spend hours removing all the crap they preinstall and otherwise optimizing the system, whereas a Mac really is ready-to-go out of the box. Not that that's a reason for you to buy one, but it may be a savings many people don't consider.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293278 - 07/02/2007 18:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
I'm comparing to a self-built system because if tomorrow I was to say "I want a new computer," I would have essentially three options open to me: Apple, Dell (and Gateway/Alienware/etc.), or build it myself. If we're just arguing the price, then other factors like differing OSs aren't in play. Out of those three options, building it yourself will save you the most money.
FWIW, the actual reason I got an Apple PC rather than building my own was because, with Hugo's friends-and-family discount, it was fractionally cheaper than buying the components separately to upgrade my previous PC. But I'm so glad I did -- not because I've become a MacOS weenie (I've booted it into MacOS a couple of times, but really only use the thing for Linux), but because it's so much quieter in operation than any self-built PC of the same spec would be. My old dual P3 sounds like a particularly badass hoover, but the Mac is just a murmur. You just can't, as a self-builder, buy the sort of heatsinks you get in a Mac Pro, nor the sort of case design that lets it use the big, slow fans. If I'd known about the quietness in advance, I'd've been happy to pay the Apple premium even if there were one.
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293279 - 07/02/2007 18:30
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
No, I understand, and yours is a valid reason. It's just that the Mac-bashers have always said "Macs cost more" without ever actually looking at what you get. I'll admit that what you get may be more than you want (from dual Xeons to being preconfigured), but it's not a context-free argument.
Don't worry, the last thing I want to do is get into a Mac-bashing war just for the sake of bashing Macs. I'm not saying anything bad about their hardware (or their software, really). I think they build and sell really fantastic hardware. It just doesn't work for me. I just find it funny that this all came out of my one statement that their smugness is something that turned me off, something that a lot of people have said.
Quote:
That said, I will point out that most of us, were we to buy a Dell PC, would spend hours removing all the crap they preinstall and otherwise optimizing the system, whereas a Mac really is ready-to-go out of the box. Not that that's a reason for you to buy one, but it may be a savings many people don't consider.
Oh, you do not have to tell me about this. I'll be the first in line to bash the hell out of Dell for that crap. Against my suggestions a family friend bought a Dell recently and had me configure it. That was a terrible experience. So yes, if it came down to a Mac vs a Dell, I will concede victory to a Mac any day of the week. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that point.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293280 - 07/02/2007 19:19
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
|
Quote:
Against my suggestions a family friend bought a Dell recently and had me configure it. That was a terrible experience.
If you're ever faced with the out-of-box Dell software junk again, you may want to try the PC De-Crapifier.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293281 - 07/02/2007 19:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Wasn't it Tony who was having tons of trouble with a Mac Mini he bought?
I wouldn't say "tons", but yes. Its hard drive failed, one month after the warranty expired.
I still don't think it's fair to compare build-it-yourself prices with OEM prices, though.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293282 - 07/02/2007 20:31
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: sein]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Against my suggestions a family friend bought a Dell recently and had me configure it. That was a terrible experience.
If you're ever faced with the out-of-box Dell software junk again, you may want to try the PC De-Crapifier.
Wow, that's handy! If it can get rid of McAfee all on it's own, it's worth the price of admission right there. That program is a royal pain.
_________________________
Matt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293283 - 08/02/2007 01:11
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Dignan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
|
You also realize you'd be paying at least $500 (if not closer to $750-1000) for a case and cooling accessories to match those in the MacPro. And don't forget to include the cost of an OS.
I simply don't see any clear-cut way to beat Apple's prices for what you actually get unless you skip over a lot of details that some people will find very important.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293284 - 08/02/2007 02:47
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: hybrid8]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
|
Quote:
skip over a lot of details that some people will find very important.
Image. ::stoke stoke::
Give me a PC in a big dull beige case and I'm a happy man.
Seriously though, I should try Mac. I mean, what will I upgrade to after XP since I won't go to Vista?
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293285 - 08/02/2007 03:50
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
addict
Registered: 04/09/2004
Posts: 525
Loc: Oklahoma
|
I too have been using Vista and I really love the Aero and 3D filp view. More than a toy, it is a time saver and a half! The 'look and feel' takes a bit of getting use to, since many things are not called what they use to be, and not necessarly where they use to be, but it really nice when you get use to it. I do, however, still object to IE7 (built in, no uninstall), as there are many, many issues, especially with the Siebel stuff (hmmm now figure out who makes that!)
All in all, I really enjoy the Vista and Office 2007. Just my two cents worth, and no change given!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293286 - 08/02/2007 04:51
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: hybrid8]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
|
Quote:
You also realize you'd be paying at least $500 (if not closer to $750-1000) for a case and cooling accessories to match those in the MacPro. And don't forget to include the cost of an OS.
Does the Mac Pro actually run quiet ? I noticed someone else in the thread say that it was whisper quiet.
I had a Mac twin G5 tower on loan for a while, that was quiet when it wasn't being used, but sounded like a wind tunnel as soon as you started taxing it. Does the arrival of the Intel chips actually make a Mac tower usable in a home office ?
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293287 - 08/02/2007 08:47
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: andy]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
Does the Mac Pro actually run quiet ? I noticed someone else in the thread say that it was whisper quiet.
While compiling Qt in 3 minutes, glibc or Mozilla in 6, KDE in half-an-hour or so, the loudest noise was the occasional ticking of the drive on the NFS server it was pulling the tarballs down from.
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293288 - 08/02/2007 12:08
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: andy]
|
addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
|
I have a MacPro and it is quiet. I have it next to the Linux unit I built up and it is night and day on noise levels. The Linux case is really nice but the MacPro is just well engineered. AntecMacPro
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293289 - 08/02/2007 16:03
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Ladmo]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
I really love the Aero and 3D filp view.
What's the 3D flip view and how do I get to it?
Don't laugh at me.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293290 - 08/02/2007 16:07
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Never mind. Found it. You have to hit a button on the task bar that I had long since removed.
The other way is ctrl+windowslogo+tab.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293291 - 08/02/2007 16:08
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
It'd be nice if that could be made the default behavior for alt+tab. Wonder if there's a hack to do that.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293292 - 08/02/2007 16:15
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
Never mind. Found it. You have to hit a button on the task bar that I had long since removed.
The other way is ctrl+windowslogo+tab.
I think it's just Windows-Tab.
While it is pretty eye-candy, I don't see the use of the 3d part. With my typical window loadout at work, most would be pretty unrecognizable in that stack it creates. And there is no way to just limit it to show one apps windows. Expose on the mac spoiled me, and Flip3d just looks to be a feature attempting to be flashy, but not one that was implemented to really improve anything.
Of course, since Visual Studio 2005 requires SP1 to even be installed on Vista, and SP1 won't compile our project for some reason, it will be a long time before either of my work Windows boxes are moved to Vista.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293293 - 08/02/2007 16:22
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
I think it's just Windows-Tab.
So it is. That's not what the built-in help says, though.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293294 - 08/02/2007 23:44
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
|
For background, I'm The Linux And Mac person at a residence hall with about 600 people. About two years ago, we put in new DHCP servers along with a network upgrade. These are my babies, as they run ISC DHCPD on debian stable, the most standard of standard dhcp servers. For three years, these dhcp servers have run perfectly. They actually run with a config file mainly copied from an even older deployment of isc's dhcpd. Well, three days ago, the inevitable happened. Our first vista laptop showed up, and it wasn't working. No surprise, our network access control system hasn't been upgraded for vista compatibility, but we had workarounds in place, yada yada yada... This would have been fine except that the damn thing wouldn't get an IP address. Hmmm. Ok, must be this laptop. Nope, the next day, a new vista laptop, same problem. The server was seeing a perfect Discover/Offer/Request/Ack exchange. The laptop was not getting an IP address. This morning we bought a copy of vista and went to town on the registry, to no avail. What was the problem? Code:
option routers 128.32.253.1, 128.32.253.1, 128.32.253.1;
Some script, back in the day, which generated this 3000 line long dhcpd config file, repeated the router three times. Why? The person who knows has long since moved on, and I'm of the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality, so I'd never worried about it. This has worked for years with Windows 98, windows ME, windows 2k, windows 2k3, windows XP, linuxes of all varieties, mac OS 9, Mac OSX, freebsd, and probably more, all without so much as a hiccup. Problem solved, crisis averted, as a coworker told me, I "get a gold star on my paycheck this month", but damn if I'd rather if things that used to work continued to work. Matthew
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293295 - 09/02/2007 00:04
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: matthew_k]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
It wouldn't get an IP address or it didn't set up the default router properly? I suppose either is possible, though the mantra of "be liberal in what you accept" was certainly not carried out by Microsoft here.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293296 - 09/02/2007 00:46
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: wfaulk]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
|
Quote:
It wouldn't get an IP address or it didn't set up the default router properly?
Wouldn't get an IP address or anything of the sort. The person who was doing the registry hacking said that there did seem to be multiple entries in the registry for routers, so it seemed to be trying and then getting confused and giving up the whole thing.
Matthew
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293297 - 09/02/2007 02:09
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: matthew_k]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
The networking stack was something MS rewrote in Vista, so makes sense that this just cropped up now.
Makes me wonder if they fixed a complaint I had with networking in XP. With OS X, I can tell my DHCP server to assign the same IP to both the wireless and wired interfaces. And if I start a file copy when wireless to a network share, I can plug into ethernet and it switches interfaces over to it with no interruption. XP would try to get IP addresses on both interfaces, and fail on the second connected interface. So if I started wired, the wireless wouldn't work until I manually disabled and reenabled it. If I was on wireless and plugged in, the wired interface would never get an IP.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293298 - 09/02/2007 02:52
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: tfabris]
|
addict
Registered: 04/09/2004
Posts: 525
Loc: Oklahoma
|
Quote:
Quote:
I really love the Aero and 3D filp view.
What's the 3D flip view and how do I get to it?
Don't laugh at me.
Try CONTROL and the WIN key and TAB all at the same time.
I find it useful, as I can have the 12 tools I use daily running in 3D flip, and when I need a different one while working on an issue, I can quickly get to just the right one. It may not be for everyone, and I am sure all the Macoligists already have something better, but for me it works great.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293299 - 09/02/2007 04:04
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Ladmo]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Ok, so it looks like Windows - Tab and Ctrl - Windows - Tab do the effect slightly differently. Windows - Tab, the windows key has to be held down, when released it picks the window on top. Tab cycles through them. Ctrl - Windows - Tab - Once pressed, windows and ctrl can be released, tab cycles, and enter selects. Either mode also allows the scroll wheel to be used to move through, and the mouse to select. Quote:
and I am sure all the Macoligists already have something better
Exposé, implemented in OS X 2.5 years ago. It was one thing I was hoping Microsoft would actually rip off. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2XFMSSrpTqg is a good demo of it in the 3 modes it has. The binding can be changes to any key, any mouse button, or screen corners. And the buttons are context sensitive. Tap the key and let go, and the mode locks in till you select a window. Hold the key down, and the mode goes away when the key is released. One big use of it is the desktop mode, where you need to grab a file to attach to an e-mail. Hit the desktop key, grab and hold the file, then release the key and drop the file.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293300 - 09/02/2007 04:57
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
enthusiast
Registered: 29/03/2005
Posts: 364
Loc: Probably lost somewhere in Wal...
|
I've been fooling around last week with beryl on ubuntu. Didn't think i would like it this much, normally i have all desktop effects turned off. They ripped off expose too Xen demo turning in XGL demo (and a little vista bashing): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2849258302734205565Just a simple video showing off most functions of beryl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3p8IBNNd88
_________________________
Empeg Mk1 #00177, 2.00 final, hijack 4.76
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293301 - 02/04/2007 05:27
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
|
That Bill Gates doesn't seem very keen for me to get my free Vista upgrade. Of course, I can see his point: We all have those days when we know it's going to be crap and we don't want to stick our head out from under the covers - he'll be there in Seattle putting off to the last letting a grumpy old man like me, who has moaned about every Windows product, getting my hands on the latest.
End of January I sent off my Acer invoice to Modus in Holland attached to an email: End of February they emailed me to say it had been verified; Mid March they emailed me to say it was being shipped and I should have it within 3 weeks(3 Weeks!!!) and to email if I hadn't got it by May 1. Now I may be a grumpy old man, but I don't think that's service.
I only wanted it to see what all the fuss was about!
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293302 - 02/04/2007 12:13
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: Schido]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
|
Quote:
I've been fooling around last week with beryl on ubuntu.
Didn't think i would like it this much, normally i have all desktop effects turned off.
Mmm. I see that they've chosen Compiz over Beryl as the "supported" XGL scheme for Feisty. So I installed Kubuntu beta1 and Compiz -- seems very buggy. Maybe it only works well with Gnome rather than KDE ? Or is Beryl that much better than Compiz that I should try again with it?
Cheers
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293304 - 02/04/2007 16:37
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: boxer]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293305 - 02/04/2007 17:17
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: drakino]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
|
Thanks for that, my screen has just ingested half a glass of very acceptable Rioja!
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293306 - 02/04/2007 23:07
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: mlord]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
|
Quote:
Quote:
I've been fooling around last week with beryl on ubuntu.
Didn't think i would like it this much, normally i have all desktop effects turned off.
Mmm. I see that they've chosen Compiz over Beryl as the "supported" XGL scheme for Feisty. So I installed Kubuntu beta1 and Compiz -- seems very buggy. Maybe it only works well with Gnome rather than KDE ? Or is Beryl that much better than Compiz that I should try again with it?
Cheers
If repostings on /. are t be believed, sounds like this could soon be moot (or "mute" for those of you watching on the Internet):
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/04/02/1815214.shtml
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293307 - 08/06/2007 05:39
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: blitz]
|
old hand
Registered: 14/08/2001
Posts: 886
Loc: London, UK
|
I've taken the plunge and ordered Vista - it should be here today. Going to run it dual-boot with XP until I'm really happy with it... EDIT: Installing.... 
Edited by furtive (08/06/2007 09:45)
_________________________
Mk2a RioCar 120Gb - now sold to the owner of my old car
Rio Karma - now on ebay...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#293308 - 08/06/2007 12:59
Re: Windows Vista
[Re: furtive]
|
old hand
Registered: 14/08/2001
Posts: 886
Loc: London, UK
|
Well installation was painless enough once I had located the drivers for my RAID/SATA controller.
Installed it on a fresh hard drive but for some reason it didn't detect my existing XP install so I've had to inform it of that. Just trying to get it triple-bootable into kumbutu as well now...
_________________________
Mk2a RioCar 120Gb - now sold to the owner of my old car
Rio Karma - now on ebay...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index