#290452 - 24/11/2006 02:45
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: loren]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Just like hinting that someone who does choose to act must be Republican, or would do whatever their government tells them to, etc, etc....
I just want to again make it clear that I wasn't hinting at either. I made the statement about "doing whatever their govm't tells them" simply because it struck me as one example of following ideals to an extreme. Poorly worded perhaps.
Understood, and it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, Loren. But I would argue that the example is anything but an example of following ideals. It's more of an example of following orders. A very different, and much more dangerous, pursuit.
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Dave
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#290453 - 24/11/2006 04:30
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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In this context I meant following an ideal like patriotism or battling "evil".... or substitute any ideal where adhering to black and white extremes precludes seeing the gray areas and/or occludes other's definitions of the extremes. A statement such as "you should stand up for what is right, no matter what" strikes me that way.
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#290454 - 24/11/2006 07:48
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: loren]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
In this context I meant following an ideal like patriotism or battling "evil".... or substitute any ideal where adhering to black and white extremes precludes seeing the gray areas and/or occludes other's definitions of the extremes. A statement such as "you should stand up for what is right, no matter what" strikes me that way.
So are you saying you should sometimes not stand up for what is right? Not that it's sometimes dangerous, or unpleasant, but that sometimes standing up for what is right is not what you should do?
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Dave
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#290455 - 24/11/2006 12:50
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I suspect we can argue principles all day, but if we are ever faced with this situation it will happen so quickly we will act completely instinctively. Your instinct might be to intervene or not. You might not even be able to understand the situation fast enough to act, even if your instinct is then to do so (too late).
Certain professionals are trained to recognise, assess and act on a situation in real time as it develops. Most of us do not have the benefit of that training. Whether we act the hero or the coward in the heat of the moment will probably have little to do with our ethical viewpoint.
Rob
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#290456 - 24/11/2006 13:34
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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If I were in this situation I would honestly fear that getting invovled might escalate the situation and make it worse.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#290457 - 24/11/2006 15:47
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
So are you saying you should sometimes not stand up for what is right? Not that it's sometimes dangerous, or unpleasant, but that sometimes standing up for what is right is not what you should do?
Exactly what I'm saying. There are times when the risk/result/benefit to society/whatever don't ally with the "righteousness" of the situation. Again, we can play the extreme example game if you want, but if you say that you will ALWAYS no matter what the circumstances are do what you deem "right", then you are following an ideal to an extreme where everything is black and white and that view doesn't match up with reality. That's the line of thinking I was pointing to with my weak war example. It comes to mind just because it's everywhere and obvious, and I'm not aligning your views to it at all, but this type of extreme idealism is demonstrated perfectly by the Iraq war and the ideal of spreading democracy and "freedom". Again, I don't want to get onto that sidetrack, but I'm using that just as an example of how idealistic ideology can lead you to a futile dangerous ending.
I get your point, that indeed we should strive to stand up for what is right despite the fact that we may be hurt by it in one way or another because the overall benefits to society are greater than that risk. I just don't agree with an idea such as that one should try and take down a guy pointing a gun in a shopkeepers face while he is stealing a pack of gum, and you are unarmed. Because that is exactly what you seem to be advocating. Or did I miss the part where you said there IS a gray area?
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#290458 - 24/11/2006 21:22
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: loren]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I just don't agree with an idea such as that one should try and take down a guy pointing a gun in a shopkeepers face while he is stealing a pack of gum, and you are unarmed.
There's a difference between doing the right thing and being stupid. If there's nothing you can do, then there's nothing you can do. But if you can do something, then you should.
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#290459 - 25/11/2006 14:49
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Let this happen in Texas and see what happens. People are much less afraid of the perp being armed when they themselves are armed, and know with a good bit of certainty that plenty of law-abiding folks around them are ALSO armed.
While I'd like to say I'd have done something, I may not have. It all depends on how close I am to my 9mm under my seat. Have I ever had to pull my weapon? Twice. Once in my home and once in my car. Both were trying to rob me and both times the situation dissolved instantly. To be sure, I carry range rounds, not black talons, so I'm not interested in killing someone, just in REALLY getting their attention. Range rounds are solid slugs, much less likely to do lethal damage, but perfectly capable of punching a neat little hole.
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#290460 - 25/11/2006 19:01
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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You have no good reason to assume he was armed. Any more than he had to assume you weren't.
Ummmm.... yeah, right.
Let's see, here apparently is a criminal fleeing apprehension by the police. And here is some guy standing by his car in the parking lot, loading groceries.
Now, which one is more likely to be armed? Oh, that's a tough one...
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#290461 - 25/11/2006 21:38
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I just don't agree with an idea such as that one should try and take down a guy pointing a gun in a shopkeepers face while he is stealing a pack of gum, and you are unarmed.
There's a difference between doing the right thing and being stupid. If there's nothing you can do, then there's nothing you can do. But if you can do something, then you should.
Thanks for summing up my point.
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#290462 - 28/11/2006 01:43
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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I launched into a tirade against a little gangbanger a few weeks ago for just tossing his yogurt container on the ground at the bus stop.
This has been a fascinating thread, but I have one question... what sort of self-respecting gangbanger would be seen in public eating yogurt? What's next quiche?
That said, I think I agree with Loren -- there's a grey area that you're missing, somewhere. What if it had turned out that the kid had stolen some candy because his friend had gone into diabetic shock a couple blocks from the store, but didn't have any glucose tablets on hand? (My dad's been in a similar situation with a work-mate, though luckily, he had some sugar packets in the glove-box of his work truck.) Your stepping in to "do the right thing" in that scenario could potentially cost someone their life.
But it is important to do the right thing when possible. This weekend, I stopped a bunch of folks from throwing rocks over the edge of the Grand Canyon, directly over a busy trail.
Cheers,
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#290463 - 28/11/2006 03:48
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: canuckInOR]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
But it is important to do the right thing when possible. This weekend, I stopped a bunch of folks from throwing rocks over the edge of the Grand Canyon, directly over a busy trail.
Cheers,
This is exactly my point... You stopped people from doing something that was (a) wrong, (b) dangerous, and (c) detrimental to society (if only the society of hikers, etc). But this thread, until I posted, seemed to consist primarily of people cheering the exact opposite behavior. You could have very easily gotten beaten to death (by rabid Boy Scouts? ) for trying to stop people from throwing rocks over the edge of the Grand Canyon, but you still said / did something. That's the heart of what I'm saying. The early posts in this thread were all about "good job not getting involved!". Not, in my opinion, the most civically minded approach.
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Dave
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#290464 - 28/11/2006 06:29
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: webroach]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Here's another weird scenario that I came across the other day. I went to a pretty seedy part of town (16th and Mission for those that know what that means) the other day for a tube of meat and cheese and rice and stuff (a burrito). As I'm walking out, I walk by some dude that was obviously selling drugs to another dude. So all you do-gooders on here - what would you do? Grab the baggie and call the cops? Tackle the guy? What? Of course, I'm the destroyer of modern society - a man without morals, scruples, or principles - and I walked right on by...  - Jon
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#290465 - 28/11/2006 10:42
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: jbauer]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1913
Loc: London
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Quote:
So all you do-gooders on here - what would you do? Grab the baggie and call the cops? Tackle the guy? What?
Of course, I'm the destroyer of modern society - a man without morals, scruples, or principles - and I walked right on by...
If I'd stopped to intervene every time I've seen drugs being traded I'd have been dead a looong time by now.
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#290466 - 28/11/2006 12:46
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: jbauer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
So all you do-gooders on here - what would you do? Grab the baggie and call the cops? Tackle the guy? What?
I would lobby to legalize the use of such drugs, with heavy regulation. This would very likely put an end to major funding sources for organized crime, topple the remnants of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and save the USA (why do I care about them??) hundreds of billions of dollars yearly.
Cheers
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#290467 - 28/11/2006 13:07
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: jbauer]
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old hand
Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
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Quote:
... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...
Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?
As far as your original question: I think you did the right thing. I don't think that stuff (i.e. the crap getting stolen) is EVER worth getting hurt over. Why bother? It's just stuff. If he was beating someone up, then do something, but if no one is in danger, who cares?
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//matt
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#290468 - 28/11/2006 13:16
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Why bother? It's just stuff
In this case, perhaps. But thus encouraged, next time it might be more serious. And so on. Pretty soon, instead of petty theft, the guy's invading other countries and killing tens of thousands or more. Gotta nip that behaviour in the bud, folks!
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#290469 - 28/11/2006 13:57
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...
Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?
He probably chose to say that because the word "black" has developed a negative connotation. If John was black and was describing the same person, but of European descent, he would probably call the thief white.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#290470 - 28/11/2006 14:08
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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veteran
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 1429
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...
Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?
As far as your original question: I think you did the right thing. I don't think that stuff (i.e. the crap getting stolen) is EVER worth getting hurt over. Why bother? It's just stuff. If he was beating someone up, then do something, but if no one is in danger, who cares?
I KNEW someone was gonna say that! Yes, I was describing the situation. If he was white, I would have said that too! Would you have asked your question if I had described him as caucasion?
Mentioning someone's skin color is not racist.
- Jon
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#290471 - 28/11/2006 14:25
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: jbauer]
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old hand
Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...
Interesting. How did you know he was African American? If he were white would you have described him as such?
As far as your original question: I think you did the right thing. I don't think that stuff (i.e. the crap getting stolen) is EVER worth getting hurt over. Why bother? It's just stuff. If he was beating someone up, then do something, but if no one is in danger, who cares?
I KNEW someone was gonna say that! Yes, I was describing the situation. If he was white, I would have said that too! Would you have asked your question if I had described him as caucasion?
Mentioning someone's skin color is not racist.
- Jon
Mentioning someone's skin color (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is racially motivated. I'm NOT saying you are racist. However, your situation does not warrant a description of color. Height, weight, sex and age perhaps (because it's important if you were to get in a scuffle with him) however, his color has nothing to do with his abilites to fight you or whatever.
Imagine if you had left his color out, then someone in the thread asked if he was white or black? Most people here would have reacted with "why does it matter?" See the difference?
There are LOTS of things around us that are very subtly racially motivated all the time. We need to give that stuff a critical eye and do our best to stay away from it. I'm not talking PC bull crap either. I'm not offended by you decribing his race, but we have to wonder where the need to do that in certain situations comes from.
Of course if you were decribing the situation to a cop, etc that was trying to find the individual, then it's important to note color.
Again, I am NOT calling you a racist.
Edited by ithoughti (28/11/2006 14:27)
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//matt
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#290472 - 28/11/2006 15:29
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: jbauer]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I let him run right by.
Thoughts?
- Jon
In your case it sounds to me like you made a good decision.
IT terminology -> "Unclear specification "
From the little bit of information you had you really couldn't tell what was happening. I recently read about some actors that almost got shot, by real cops, playing out a kidnapping scene. The cops had no idea it wasn't real.
Everyone would like to be the hero but it’s often hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys or even what’s really happening.
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#290473 - 28/11/2006 15:51
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Mentioning someone's skin color (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is racially motivated.
So what do you call mentioning that the guy had on a sweatshirt, which also made no real difference?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#290474 - 28/11/2006 16:02
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Mentioning someone's skin color (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is racially motivated.
So what do you call mentioning that the guy had on a sweatshirt, which also made no real difference?
useless, but not racially motivated. Although, if he had body armor on, (or was naked) that would be worth metioning.
I can tell you don't agree with my opinions though.
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//matt
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#290475 - 28/11/2006 16:05
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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next time it might be more serious. And so on. Pretty soon, instead of petty theft, the guy's invading other countries and killing tens of thousands or more.
Awwww..... C'mon. That could never happen!
Oh. Wait...
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#290476 - 28/11/2006 16:09
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I can tell you don't agree with my opinions though.
I don't. I think that he was providing a description, and when we describe things we often include color, whether it be people, cars, whatever. The entire description is probably not important to the story; however, it helps give readers some picture of what happened, and THAT is simply good communication. To explicitly NOT include something in our description because we are afraid of being branded as "racially motiavated" is not a good thing.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#290477 - 28/11/2006 16:21
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I can tell you don't agree with my opinions though.
I don't. I think that he was providing a description, and when we describe things we often include color, whether it be people, cars, whatever. The entire description is probably not important to the story; however, it helps give readers some picture of what happened, and THAT is simply good communication. To explicitly NOT include something in our description because we are afraid of being branded as "racially motiavated" is not a good thing.
yep, I used to think the same thing. My gf is getting her PhD studying such things though, so my eyes have been opened as a result of our discussions. I'm not all that great at communicating the same ideas as she is unfortunately.
but what I said before is the best way I can explain it: "imagine if you had left his color out, then someone in the thread asked if he was white or black? Most people here would have reacted with "why does it matter?"
Edited by ithoughti (28/11/2006 16:23)
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#290478 - 28/11/2006 16:34
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
imagine if you had left his color out, then someone in the thread asked if he was white or black? Most people here would have reacted with "why does it matter?
Which would have been the same reaction as if he'd not mentioned the sweatshirt and someone asked what the guy had on.
I get that people make assumptions they shouldn't make because of someone's skin color, and it's a horrible thing. But making it a taboo subject isn't helping this anything. If I describe everything in my environment by its color and then leave out people, the gap says much more than the inclusion would have. Racial bias isn't going away any time soon, unfortunatly, and it is going to take more than deleting vocabluary from our words to fix the problem.
Edited by JeffS (28/11/2006 17:11)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#290479 - 28/11/2006 17:04
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
... see a man (maybe early 20s, thin, sweatshirt, African American) running towards me...
Mentioning someone's [sex] (no matter what it is) when it makes no difference in the situation is [sexual discrimination]. I'm NOT saying you are [sexist]. However, your situation does not warrant a description of [sex]. Height, weight, colour and age perhaps (because it's important if you were to get in a scuffle with him) however, his sex has nothing to do with his abilites to fight you or whatever.
Women have black (err... coloured) belts, too. And what's with the age discrimination? Does it really matter that he's early 20's, or late teens, or 30's, or 40's etc..?
Sheesh. What a bunch of politically correct bigots!
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#290480 - 28/11/2006 18:44
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
And what's with the age discrimination? Does it really matter that he's early 20's, or late teens, or 30's, or 40's etc..?
No kidding. Did we learn nothing from Karate Kid? 
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#290481 - 29/11/2006 03:12
Re: Stop! Thief!!
[Re: ithoughti]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Just because you point out someone's race, it doesn't make you a racist. Here's a great example that illustrates my point perfectly.
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