#287493 - 03/11/2006 21:08
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I've generally though of the phone companies as more corrupt then the cable companies. Here in Austin, I'm paying Time Warner $35 a month for 8mbit service. And quite often I use this, like my download of an ISO off MSDN last night was running at 800k/s. I think the best DSL in the area is around 3mbit, for more then what I pay. Reliability has been acceptable, with 2 short outages since I have used it starting in April. I really feel that if the cable companies hadn't decided to get into broadband, we would be lucky to even have 128k internet service. Especially after the phone companies stole $200 billion under the guise of nationwide broadband rollout charges.
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#287494 - 05/11/2006 03:14
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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So why is it that ADSL2+ hasn't got to the US yet? I guess the distances from the exchange are, in general, further than in Europe, but people who live next to the exchange in the UK can get 24Mb these days... are all the companies waiting to amortise the original ADSL investment?
Hugo
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#287495 - 05/11/2006 14:05
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: altman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
So why is it that ADSL2+ hasn't got to the US yet? I guess the distances from the exchange are, in general, further than in Europe, but people who live next to the exchange in the UK can get 24Mb these days... are all the companies waiting to amortise the original ADSL investment?
I think it's a question of incentive. Why *should* they deploy ADSL2+ ?
-ml
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#287496 - 05/11/2006 16:37
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: mlord]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
I think it's a question of incentive. Why *should* they deploy ADSL2+ ?
Competition? Ahh, yes, of corse, this is the US, where enough lobbying power buys you the license to print money...
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#287497 - 05/11/2006 21:58
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I think it's a question of incentive. Why *should* they deploy ADSL2+ ?
Competition? Ahh, yes, of corse, this is the US, where enough lobbying power buys you the license to print money...
I'm really not sure what that means. Depending on your geographic location (not necessarily political boundary), There is a very large amount of choice. ADSL2+ sounds nice, but Verizon is currently do a large roll out of fiber to the premises (FTTP) in the NY metro area. They call it FiOS, and is currently capable of up to 50 Mbps downstream. I think the lowest teir you can subscribe to is 10 Mbps service, and it's actually less expensive than most DSL plans.
FiOS is also able to carry a large amount of high definition television channels in addition to internet access. If you want television service you can now choose from over the air, FTA satellite, cable (sometimes multiple providers), 2 different major DBS satellite systems, FiOS, and some other fringe operators.
In many areas, cable, DSL, and satellite (from two different providers) internet service is available. Then you have more populated areas that can offer point to point wireless, wifi, and fiber to the premises. Don't forget the ability to hop on a high speed wireless network. Verizon, Sprint, Nextel, and Cingular all offer all-you-can-eat plans suitable for laptop and home use.
This message is being sent through a Time Warner Cable line that's being billed by Earthlink ISP. Although the cable company (Time Warner) maintains the physical network, I have the option of choosing from a few different ISPs. Road Runner is the default and is a Time Warner company. Earthlink gives me an 8Mpbs service for $10 less, so I chose them.
Looks like there is a lot of competition to me. But what do I know? I just happen to live in the US....
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#287498 - 06/11/2006 07:51
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
In many areas, cable, DSL, and satellite (from two different providers) internet service is available.
Well, I can choose from 2 separate (physical) cable operators, and about 25 DSL operators, just waiting for fibre to the home. I'm sure I could get satellite if I wanted. But above all, all those providers are really competing, and try to outdo each other by offering even better deals. And yes, there are multiple choices for physical networks, not just multiple ISP's on top of one telco.
Of course, this is the Netherlands, that always has had a slightly protectionistic environment. If you go up to the Nordics, you get *real* competition... 
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#287499 - 06/11/2006 12:41
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Well, I can choose from 2 separate (physical) cable operators
There are well-populated areas (such as New York City) where multiple physical cable TV operators coexist. The choice of which operator to use is yours. This isn't typical, but it's obviously possible if there is enough demand. Competition in television is primarily between your local cable operator, DirecTV, and Dish Network.
Quote:
and about 25 DSL operators
When DSL was first being rolled out, this was possible in this area. Outside companies were setting up equipment in the telephone company's central office. I chose an outside company (can't remember the name). At the time, the telephone company wasn't even supplying DSL out of that exchange but a few independents were. They all went out of business eventually when cable internet DSL service from the phone company got better/cheaper. 786k DSL (which most consumers feel is acceptable) costs less than $15 a month here. That's less than an AOL dial-up subscription.
Choice of DSL providers exists in areas where the companies were able to survive the competition. Covad seems to still operate in northern New Jersey, but there was a time they had a far-greater reach in this area.
Quote:
I'm sure I could get satellite if I wanted.
C-Band satellite internet exists and I assume it's available internationally, but I doubt two companies have launched consumer-oriented services in NL. WildBlue and HughesNet are viable options even in the most back-woods parts of this country. Their higher cost and latency keep them from being popular when DSL or cable is available, however.
Quote:
But above all, all those providers are really competing, and try to outdo each other by offering even better deals.
I know it sounds crazy to you, but this happens in the US too. Being granted a license to provide a service doesn't guarantee success or an ability to "print money." There are two satellite radio companies that got licenses to broadcast in 1998. They're both struggling almost 10 years later.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the cable companies or the telephone companies. I think their service blows (except for cable internet). I chose to get service from their competitors who offer better service or better prices. DirecTV for television, Vonage for telephone, and Earthlink ISP as my billing agent/ISP for cable internet.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#287500 - 06/11/2006 14:46
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
When DSL was first being rolled out, this was possible in this area. Outside companies were setting up equipment in the telephone company's central office. I chose an outside company (can't remember the name). At the time, the telephone company wasn't even supplying DSL out of that exchange but a few independents were. They all went out of business eventually when cable internet DSL service from the phone company got better/cheaper. 786k DSL (which most consumers feel is acceptable) costs less than $15 a month here. That's less than an AOL dial-up subscription.
That is precisely what I was thinking of. That's where the lobbying power of the Baby Bells shows. Here the argument was that their local loop infrastructure was built while under protection of government-granted monopoly, so the local incumbents were forced to separate out their infrastructure business and sell the "raw" service to everybody for basically cost price. Not so in the US...
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#287501 - 06/11/2006 15:25
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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It really doesn't matter now for telephone service. VoIP from companies without a physical network (ie, Vonage, Packet8, etc.) and from cable television companies is gaining a lot of traction. Even AT&T is offering a VoIP service.
If you want DSL, most telephone companies will provide you with naked DSL. This is DSL without a dialtone or telephone service.
Without some people's need or desire for DSL, the physical telephone network is largely unnecessary for residential use. Mobile phones have become the only telephone for many of my friends.
I assume Verizon (a company formed from several Baby Bells) is rolling out their fiber to the premises service with television quickly due to pressure from the cable tv companies as most now offer TV, Internet, and phone over one physical wire and on one bill. Sounds like competition to me...
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#287502 - 06/11/2006 18:05
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
If you want DSL, most telephone companies will provide you with naked DSL. This is DSL without a dialtone or telephone service.
At least where I used to live, naked DSL carried a cost premium making it not worth it in most cases. And Qwest also had some sort of allocation system going for it, and "ran out of" naked lines they would hand out in the Colorado Springs area. So even if people were willing to pay more to not have the phone line, they still couldn't get it. One of my friends eventually gave up and decided to just deal with the cable company instead.
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#287503 - 06/11/2006 18:10
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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That seems counter intuitive. Naked DSL is not cheaper than regular DSL here, it just knocks the telephone service off the bill.
In any case, since your friend couldn't get his naked DSL, he went with cable. That's called competition and is what I'm trying to illustrate exists in the United States. To claim it doesn't is ridiculous.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#287504 - 06/11/2006 18:26
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
If you want DSL, most telephone companies will provide you with naked DSL. This is DSL without a dialtone or telephone service.
The "naked pair (line)" charge is often more than basic home telephone service, so that one's pretty much a non-starter for many areas.
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#287505 - 06/11/2006 18:46
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Cable and Phone in the US and Canada has always been anti-competetive. Still is, especially in Canada. For Satellite, both countries feature only two national providers. In the US you've got DirecTV and Dish Network and in Canada you've got Bell ExpressVu and StarChoice. Satellite TV in Canada stinks compared to what's available in the US (channel selection is poor and the equipment is always a generation or two behind). But paying for DirecTV and Dish aren't cheap either. "Competition" in the US between these two players and their CableCo counterparts hasn't dropped the price of TV very much.
I'm paying CAD$87 or so per month right now for Basic+something cable (Discovery Channel and a few other extras) and 6Mbit internet. From the single player that can provide it to me. There is no other choice. If I wanted to switch to a slower DSL connection I could go to Bell and also use their Satellite TV.
Rogers, my cable company, has seen fit to lower/alter service (dropped News feeds completely, dropped their own Mail in favor of shifting everyone to Yahoo and a few other things, put caps on downloading, implemented real-time packet inspection/filtering to combat p2p clients and bittorrent) AND increased their prices twice. All this depsite a signed contract for 2 years of a specific service. Of course I don't let service contracts tie me up anyway, I always just drop them when I want to move elsewhere, but I don't suddenlly just decide I want to start paying them a different amount every month.
All said and done, it's still cheaper to pay for Cable than to try and buy shows one at a time or even in series packs online.
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#287506 - 06/11/2006 18:54
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
since your friend couldn't get his naked DSL, he went with cable. That's called competition
Having one product available to him is called competition?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#287507 - 06/11/2006 19:12
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Yes. He didn't like the terms of having to pay more and wait for service availability so he went with cable.
In case you didn't notice, the country you live in is quite large. What goes for one area may not be the deal in another. Where I sit right now (Stony Point, NY), there is a large amount of choice and competition for a high speed internet connection. It's not my fault for not taking into account the situation in Colorado Springs, CO (in the past, mind you) which is over 1700 miles away. The point is that the problem is not at the governmental level. Companies are free to compete against each other and if there is enough demand, they will.
DirecTV isn't launching 2 new satellites because the cable TV and telephone lobbyists are letting them.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#287508 - 07/11/2006 07:28
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: robricc]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
That's called competition and is what I'm trying to illustrate exists in the United States. To claim it doesn't is ridiculous.
Yes, there is competition in the US. But compared to many other countries, big incumbents seem to enjoy a fair bit of protection. Been there, (sort of) worked for one.
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#287510 - 23/11/2006 15:13
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Okay, I pulled the plug on DirecTV about a week ago, but I've been out of town ever since. One thing I realized before I left though, is that my DTivo still works fine and plays all the stored content... AND... with tivotool I can upload downloaded mp4s to the DTivo and it plays them just fine. Now if I can just figure out how to tag them properly so folder sorting works, I'll be stoked. So for now, no need to get the Mac Mini as a media server I was planning on.
But, that's going to happen in the near future I think. Now that I've no need for a PC, other than as a slimServer, since I got a MacBook Pro and can animate with Maya on the XP boot, I can sell my desktop Shuttle and go all Mac. Or I can make the PC a media center, but I don't want the headaches. Mini with EyeTV and over the air HD seems like the best solution.
Anyone have experience with Macs and TV tuners??
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#287511 - 23/11/2006 16:04
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I have the EyeTV hybrid now on my Mini, and it is working, though I've had some issues.
1. Enabling digital audio out in EyeTV caused the Mac to kernel panic over time, sometimes seconds after starting, others after several minutes. I disabled it for now, as I don't have a 5.1 setup anyway.
2. The EPG setup was a pain. The site enjoyed mashing Austin, Dallas, and Houston stations all together. Then in the EyeTV program, it showed nothing on the EPG until I manually mapped every channel to the guide. So digital channel 18-1 to channel 18-1 in the guide data and so on.
3. Stability. I've been using it more this week, and have had it hang after trying to record, or not output audio on a channel until a full reboot. So far is has always recorded what I wanted, but the hang when it tries to transcode it to h.264 is something I hope isn't common.
4. Apple remote integration. It only works if EyeTV is the front program, and if it somehow isn't, you have to drag out a mouse to bring it back. I'll probably load up Bruno's program again, now that I need to use the remote more outside Front Row.
Also, be prepared to have tons of storage handy. Since it records the normal MPEG2 HD stream, an hour show is around 6 gigs, and can fill up the laptop drive in the mini quickly. I'm experimenting with letting it record to the network storage, and so far that seems ok, but I may get a firewire drive instead.
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#287512 - 23/11/2006 17:08
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Interesting. Thanks a bunch for the notes. From all the reviews I've read I haven't seen those problems. Hope they aren't super common. 6GB for an hour... youch. No way to get it to convert on the fly eh?
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#287513 - 23/11/2006 17:37
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Nothing on the fly. The way I have been doing the h.264 encoding has been via the built in iPod option. The other problem that introduces is that on my Mini with a 1.6 Core Duo, it spends too much CPU time trying to do the encoding and will impact HDTV playback. It needs to set the priority on the encoding to a better level. I'd be happy with an option to just encode in the early hours of the night.
EyeTV does have a bunch of AppleScript commands, so I may tinker with Automater and see what I can do. I haven't poked much at the raw EyeTV files yet, but they seem to be containers with info for the program, then the .mpg file as well. Context clicking them gives you the "show package contents" option.
On the plus side, the program has been properly waking my mac to record when needed. Holding the menu button on the Apple Remote on the Front Row screen will manually sleep it, and I have mine set to sleep after 30 minutes of inactivity. It does wake up at 5am to backup to my server, and also quit and restart iTunes to trigger it to download new shows from the store or new podcasts.
Overall, the Mini as a PVR seems to be about the same as any other PC solution, it has some rough edges, but can work in the end. The Front Row bonjour sharing of video files works smoothly to my laptop, so I can watch most anything across that. Only thing I don't have is live TV streaming, but I don't mind since I always want to skip commercials anyhow.
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#287514 - 24/11/2006 03:37
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I've no need for a PC, other than as a slimServer
SlimServer runs under Unix without a problem. It just needs Perl and a bunch of Perl modules. It might be a pain to get all of those modules installed, but I don't see any reason you couldn't get it working under MacOSX; it is just a version of Unix, after all.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#287515 - 24/11/2006 04:26
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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Actually it will work under OSX, there's a prebuilt client if memory serves. I just meant there's no reason to keep it around NOW, pre MacMini, other than that I use it as a SlimServer. The scanner crashes everytime it runs though. Drives me nuts.
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#287516 - 05/12/2006 01:08
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Ok, followup on EyeTV, I can't recommend it anymore. Because:
1. The guide data has gone from working sometimes to not at all. It is downloading it, but not actually using it. I've purged the cache and it still won't display anything. This means record by name is broken, so only record by time works now.
2. Stability. The program has now crashed twice to the point of becoming a zombie program and forcing a reboot. kill -9 even failed on it. One crash resulted in a show not recording. I thought maybe a memory leak or something was causing it to occur, so I started having the Mac close it and re open it nightly, same issue. It also seems to crash if the live TV view is left on overnight.
3. No easy way to watch something being recorded. I came home tonight and watched a video netcast before watching Heroes, so that I could skip commercials. Went to start from the beginning, and the recording would instead dump me to live. Manually rewound all the way, and then 2 minutes in the playback would pause every 10 seconds for a second. Might be a sign that I need a gig of memory for the Mini though.
I was hoping this solution would allow me to just have a stable PVR platform, but for now, EyeTV is not ready for such duties. The nice thing is that the USB tuner I have works under Windows as well, so I might give Windows Media Center under Vista a try, and also the ReplayTV software. From my experience with Vista though on my old Inspiron 9100, I don't think that route will work for me either. The system can't even stay asleep on it's own.
If Tivo wasn't so interested in becoming evil, I'd almost be tempted by their over the air or cable card HD recorder.
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#287517 - 05/12/2006 02:12
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
a zombie program ... kill -9 even failed on it
You cannot kill a zombie process because it no longer exists. A zombie process is a process that has already exited but whose parent process hasn't bothered to read its exit status. The zombie process exists only in the process table, not in memory or anywhere else. There's only enough of it left to report back to its parent. The only way to get a zombie process to go away is to get its parent to "wait" on the process. Since zombie processes are usually due to a bug in the parent process, that often means killing the parent process, at which point the zombie's parent will become PID 1, init, which will reap the process.
What all of this means is that there shouldn't be a state where you really have to reboot. But that doesn't mean that it's not hopelessly broken.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#287518 - 05/12/2006 02:39
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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The process showed it was owned by WindowServer, and launchd (1) owned that. I didn't want to try killing WindowServer at the time, instead I just chose to restart. I'm not 100% certain that the EyeTV app did turn into a zombie, but OS X wasn't letting me relaunch it as it thought it was running, both via the Dock icon with the triangle below it and ps.
Overall lesson learned from this was that it was much simpler dealing with the ReplayTV hardware then it is a PC based solution for recording live TV.
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#287519 - 05/12/2006 06:16
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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That's super disappointing news. I was all set to get rid of my now serviceless DirecTivo, which I've been dumping shows to using TivoServer, and get a Mac Mini to use as a media server and get eyeTV on it with an ATSC HD Tuner. Bummer man. My DirecTivo has taken to crashing every night for some reason... I think I accidentally renamed a folder or moved a show or something that it really didn't like via TivoWeb. Grrr.
So what are the alternatives to eyeTV? From the few reviews I'd read it seemed like the best thing out there.
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#287520 - 06/03/2007 03:11
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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So I think at this point I'm done with attempting over the air HD. I haven't recorded a single show that has been good quality on 3 different stations in the Austin area now for the past 3 months. I try adjusting the antenna, and I get near perfect reception on one station, only to have to adjust it again later in the week for another show. And even if the signal looks good for a while, it craps out randomly. Watched Heroes tonight, and 75% of it was fine. Last quarter of it had many times of broken signal, or poor quality to where it introduced artifacts, and nearly made it completely unwatchable.
Really makes me wonder how DTV is going to replace analog broadcasts when I can't even watch the local digital channels without an amplified antenna that doesn't even work, all when I live well inside city limits.
At this point I'll finish out the season of Heroes and 24 via iTunes and the Alamo Drafthouse respectively, then just look into rental to get the shows on DVD later.
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#287521 - 06/03/2007 04:14
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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I had fully planned on going the OTA HD route, but am glad to report that I'm totally happy the way things are going now just using Netflix, bittorrent and an iTunes purchase here or there. With the advent of RSS feeds for torrents, finding shows has become incredibly simple. The Daily Show, Lost, The Office, and the one or two other shows that I HAVE to see, are almost always on the torrent network an hour or so after they air, in better quality that I'd have gotten with DirecTV that I had. I watch 'em, then delete 'em. I've watched Lost a number of times from the abc website as well, which isn't all that bad in a pinch.
I can't just go veg on the couch and disappear into the ether anymore... which I'm actually enjoying. Watching TV is now a treat and more anticipated, not just a way to procrastinate or pass time I should be using for something else. Plus, I've got $50 more a month in my pocket.
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#287522 - 06/03/2007 04:35
Re: My attempt to avoid cable and satellite service for TV
[Re: loren]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
With the advent of RSS feeds for torrents, finding shows has become incredibly simple.
I'm still not willing to go that route either. I now know 3 people who have gotten nasty grams from this, and while none have moved into anything more serious, I'd rather not chance it. Especially since the parent company of my employer is one of the major TV producers. I like my job enough to avoid downloading a show off bittorrent. That, and I still feel it is wrong, especially now being part of a gaming company who also survives by producing entertainment that people pay for.
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