#264536 - 13/09/2005 19:09
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
Well, the who part is most likely one or more people with very high stakes on having a large following of devout believers, enriching their pockets or boosting their personal power base. The more that their own religious beliefs are pushed onto the general populace at a young and vulnerable age, then the larger their long-term following will be.
While there's clearly never been any shortage of genuinely sociopathically malicious religious leaders, I think one of the reasons religion has survived so long in society is that it makes people act in these ways -- spreading the gospel, evangelising the young -- while all the time believing they're being beneficent to society. IMO one needn't posit a secret conspiracy of ID zealots: a drowning man will clutch at straws, the saying goes, and ID looks to me like the sort of straw that a theist drowning in rationalism would clutch at. It's probably popular in its own right, not because of aggressive marketing.
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264537 - 13/09/2005 19:22
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
God would not permit death in a world not overcome by sin
While I'm sure He has His reasons, personally I'm much fonder of the Middle-Earth idea of death, as laid out in The Silmarillion: humans, alone among sentient races, are genuinely extinguished and dead when they die, and the immortal elves, who clearly look on this with a certain amount of envy, call death "the Gift of the Valar" (that is, of the gods).
(It annoyed me when they messed with this in the Return Of The King film: Gandalf at the siege of Minas Tirith reassures Pippin by talking about the afterlife, but it's an afterlife that Pippin, who's clearly descended from humans not elves, doesn't get.)
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264538 - 13/09/2005 19:23
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
I don't know that that logic is internally consistent, either.
Quote:
evolution requires death to have happened before the fall and sin entering the world. Since death is a consequence of sin, it therefore follows that evolution (which requires death as part of its process) is not consistend with the character of God as revealed in the scripture (ie. God would not permit death in a world not overcome by sin).
So this would seem to apply only to humans. I don't think that any Christians really believe in animal sin. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Isn't it easy enough to say that evolution occurred before humankind and that the evolution from ape/animal to human was coincident with the introduction of sin? In all honesty, that makes a lot of sense to me, as what makes us human is also what makes us both remarkable and terrible.
Of course, that's only one possibility, many of which would argue against that, but I think it is intenally consistent within that viewpoint and therefore invalidates the argument that evolutionary death before sin is impossible.
Edit: failed to close my quote properly. I suck.
Edited by wfaulk (13/09/2005 19:27)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264539 - 13/09/2005 19:24
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Some non-God human has come up with this crusade, for some form of personal gain, and is managing to dupe a bunch of otherwise smart people into pushing it for his/her ends.
Not true. ID is all about observing the world around us and deducing from what we study scientifically that God exists. In fact, it does not even assert a GOOD God, only the existence of a Creator.
ID started being proposed by those who honestly felt that a gunine study of the world around us leads to no other conclusion. These people reasoned that rather than argue the issue of biblical Creation, which has a lot of other points to argue over, lets just deal with the one central issue- is there a God? The idea is that once people are conviced that God exists, we can then move to discussing the evidence for which God exists and how He has revealed Himself.
Of course, most evolutions are well aware of the end-game that ID sets up and are going to argue against it, not on the merits of ID itself, but of the personal beliefs of its proponents. They see ID as Creatonism dressed up in new clothing. Now honestly, I haven't been following it all well enough to know if ID has kept itself seperate from biblical Creationism as was intendnded, or if it has just become the same old debate.
Are the claims of ID debatable? Yes- the idea that you can prove God exists from nature is an issue that I'm sure many have an opinion on. But I'm not sure if that is what is really being debated- what I hear from evolutionists is all sorts of evidence for evolution, which isn't what the debate is about. As I said, evolution falls within the scope of ID.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264540 - 13/09/2005 19:26
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: andy]
|
addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
|
Quote:
You'd think that just the two different versions of creation in the Bible would be enough to blow the whole "the Bible is the literal truth" argument out of the water without anything else...
I've only briefly browsed the bible related sections but carm.org aims to explain why the inconsistencies aren't inconsistent. The site seems to be written by someone intelligent and at least somewhat rational. The parts I've read are worth the time.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264541 - 13/09/2005 19:39
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
ID started being proposed by those who honestly felt that a gunine study of the world around us leads to no other conclusion.
...
Quote:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
That said, I'd argue that this statement is untrue, or specious, or disingenuous:
Quote:
most evolutions are well aware of the end-game that ID sets up and are going to argue against it, not on the merits of ID itself, but of the personal beliefs of its proponents
Let's assume for the sake of argument that that is the case (and I'm sure it is for some). Even if the evolutionists have a particular reason for arguing against it, facts don't lie. If the argument against it is sound, then the bias of the person presenting the argument is irrelevant.
On the other hand, ID proponents are constantly lying. For example, ID's supposed smoking gun is the bombardier beetle, which has the amazing ability to squirt steam from its rear end as a defense mechanism. Actual greater-than-100C-water steam. Pretty amazing. It's the ID proponents' argument that this is so amazing and unique that it would have to have been created by hands-on ID. Of course, the problem with that argument is that it's in no way unique, and, in fact, is a good example of evolution. Other beetles have various portions of the mechanism that the bombardier beetle has, from the bladder, to the production of various subsets of the chemicals needed to produce that exothermic reaction, to, uh, other stuff that I can't remember now. But when presented with that evidence, the ID proponent's response is usually to ignore it.
Disproving the requirement of ID in one case doesn't mean that it's disproved in all cases, but it's the intentional ignorance of facts that is worrisome. ID proponents claim that it is also a science with a different viewpoint, but a scientist who ignores facts is no scientist at all.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264542 - 13/09/2005 19:46
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
So this would seem to apply only to humans.
The belief is that there was no sickness or death in the world AT ALL before man fell. I believe this doctrine goes back to Judaism, actually, though I'm not certain.
But I'm not really trying to argue this point of view- more explain where the issue really lies. Personally I'm not convinced of evolution, I AM conviced of ID*, and I'm not sure about the thology behind "Creation falling". I believe in the Fall of man, but the rest seems to be outside of what is directly taught in scripture. It has a certain logic to it and I don't discount it, but neither do I embrace it whole heartedly as pure biblical teaching.
I also have some other personal theories, but I'm not sure how viable or logical they are. Safe to say, I'm keeping them to myself for the time being and officially standing on "I'm not certain about evolution either way". This isn't a popular stance to anyone, but it's honest.
Edit: *Well, actually I'm not conviced of ID, but I am convinced God exists. Whether that can be proven scientifically, I'm not sure. It seems that there is some good evidence, from what I've read
Edited by JeffS (13/09/2005 19:51)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264543 - 13/09/2005 19:59
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
So when Adam and Eve ate the apple of knowledge they not only condemned themselves and their descendants to death, but also all of the animals of the world, who had nothing to do with it, and were actually there before the humans?
That's a raw deal, dude.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264544 - 13/09/2005 20:02
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
|
Quote:
The belief is that there was no sickness or death in the world AT ALL before man fell.
It is a good job man fell then, otherwise it would have got awful crowded round here by now.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264545 - 13/09/2005 20:03
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
Which I think is one of the funniest passages in any work of fiction I know. For the record, though, God never said that without faith He is nothing.
Quote:
On the other hand, ID proponents are constantly lying
ID proponents say the same about evolutionists, claiming that they still use examples that have been proven not to be evolution.
More likely I doubt very many people are lying, but instead are mistaken. That is why it is difficult for me to get a solid track on this. I read one source that seem credible saying that one side is mistaken, and then I read another that seems equally credible saying the opposite. I'm not educated enough in any of this science to tell who is mistaken and who isn't, though I sort of feel like everyone's probably mistaken a little.
Edited by JeffS (13/09/2005 22:26)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264546 - 13/09/2005 20:06
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
So when Adam and Eve ate the apple of knowledge they not only condemned themselves and their descendants to death, but also all of the animals of the world, who had nothing to do with it, and were actually there before the humans?
That's a raw deal, dude.
Yup, that's the idea. Since Christians (and many other religious people) believe that the world exists for their benifit and is their responsibility, this doesn't seem too much of a stretch.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264547 - 13/09/2005 20:16
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: andy]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
You'd think that just the two different versions of creation in the Bible would be enough to blow the whole "the Bible is the literal truth" argument out of the water without anything else...
The two "versions" are not inconsistent. The first deals with God's creation on a grand scale, the second on His personal relationship to humans. The second deals with the garden of Eden, and not all of the world. Thus, animals were created first, but were brought into the garden after the creation of Adam and Eve. Eden was the perfect place God intended for all humans to exist in the love relationship with Him for which they were created.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264548 - 13/09/2005 20:25
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
they still use examples (like the bird beaks) that have been proven NOT to be evolution.
I don't know this one. Details?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264549 - 13/09/2005 20:30
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
|
So, the world was created for benefit of humans, but they were deliberatly created so as to be liable to spoil everything by Falling (and Fall, as far as I can see, consisted of seeking knowledge); then the Creator Himself (or His son, depending on details of belief), an (rather the) omnipotent being, suffers in order to express His love and save fallen humanity that he created Himself as they are (save from what?), as if fixing a design flaw. I can never cease to express my astonishment at such constructs. And yet, nice people like Jeff not only believe them sincerely, but believe that their own goodness (i.e. what we heathens call human qualities) have source external to them... 
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264550 - 13/09/2005 22:25
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
I don't know this one. Details?
Hmm, I started poking around to substantiate my statement and now realize there is still much debate. So I withdraw it.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264551 - 14/09/2005 00:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Quote:
I haven't been following it all well enough to know if ID has kept itself seperate from biblical Creationism as was intendnded, or if it has just become the same old debate.
IMHO, it has become the same old debate about Creationism. If it's simply an attempt to draw some metaphysical conclusions from the scientifically observable world, that's fine. But if that's the case, then why is it that ID folks seem so insistent on having ID taught as an alternative theory to evolution? From what I've been able to see of the ID vs. evolution argument, the preponderance of proponents of ID aren't seeking to say evolution is part of the Design, as any other bit of science would be considered -- they're seeking to replace the theory of evolution with ID.
Topical anecdote: about a month ago, I was in a grocery store, and witnessed a guy trying to hit on a trio of extremely attractive college co-eds. He wasn't doing too bad until he mentioned that he didn't believe in evolution ("Well, it's just a theory."), but did believe in ID. It torpedoed any chances with them. They didn't manage to hide their amusement ("Well, Einstein's theory of general realtivity is just a theory too, do you believe that?") completely, but they did refrain from laughing at him. Barely.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264552 - 14/09/2005 07:08
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
|
Quote:
Just for the record, ID and evolution are compatible. ID only asserts that some intelligence is responsible for creation and that this is evident by studying the world around us. Likewise, evolution does not assert that God does not exist.
First off, I just wanted to thank you Jeff. Your time spent on this thread is amazing, and it is helping to provide a good insight into ID.
Anyhow, I think this has been discussed elsewhere before, but the general problem with ID in schools seems to be that it tries to teach an unprovable concept with the creation part. Right now, we have no scientific method that can explain how the universe was created. There are many theories, some tying into the string theory that get us close to understanding the first few seconds of the universe, but it is still unknown how the big bang happened. ID not only tries to usually be taught alongside evolution, it also tries to put an unprovable answer to where life and the universe came from.
I am at least happy to see one person saying that ID and evolution can co-exist, and also that evolution can have a part in explaining ID. The people I have talked to before generally try to tie too much of the religious aspect into the ID debate, and for me, that invalidates their point when it steps away from science and asks you to have faith.
On a side note, I personally have no issues with any type of religious classes in school. I would have preferred an education that at least gave me the basics on the major religions around the world. Religion is very much a major part of humanity, and to avoid it at all costs is an extremism that I dislike.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264553 - 14/09/2005 08:22
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
|
Quote:
Two years ago I moved from the suburbs to a more rural part of Virginia. It's home school central out here.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40517
Peter
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264554 - 14/09/2005 10:01
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: drakino]
|
pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
|
Quote:
Religion is very much a major part of humanity, and to avoid it at all costs is an extremism that I dislike.
I agree. What state should avoid is favoring one religion over others*. I, for example, think that banning any religious symbols in schools (be they clothing of Muslim girls, Jewish yarmulke or large cross pendant) in France and some other European countries is wrong. Religious symbols have no place on classroom wall, but what students wear should be a matter of their private decision.
As you say, religion (in all its variety) is a very important part of humanity, and not touching it in curriculum is obviously wrong. The trouble is, it is a very emotionally charged subject, and even the most historically and sociologically objective treatment of it (such as it is possible) is bound to offend many faithfuls.
Jeff's patience and good-natured attempts to explain what it is like being his flavor of a Christian (both doctrinary and emotionaly) is trully amazing. I was never able to discuss these matters in a similar way, not even with my Catholic brother.
*) I believe in equal treatment of all religions very strongly. We must not be tempted into adopting one religion as "the true" or official one, just because we happen to live in a region where it prevails statisitcally. Practicioners of other religions feel equally strongly about their faiths, and there are no "objective" criteria to favour one over any other. Of course, with some "faithful" we run into the recently discussed question of tollerance of intollerance...
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264555 - 14/09/2005 11:41
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: drakino]
|
addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
|
Quote:
Right now, we have no scientific method that can explain how the universe was created. There are many theories...
...when it steps away from science and asks you to have faith.
Since there are no explainable (proven) scientific methods, it seems that all theories require some faith. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264556 - 14/09/2005 12:59
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Certainly "God created it" is as good an explanation for how the universe started as anything science has (which is pretty much nothing), but, in my experience, ID proponents, or at least the ones who identify themselves as such, and specifically the ones pushing for ID in the classroom have a much larger idea than that of what ID is. Basically, they seem to say that God created every creature on Earth by hand and that evolution is nonsense. (I probably overstate, but that's the basic notion.)
I have no problem with there being objective religion classes in school, either, as long as they give fair share to all religions. In my mind, these would be sociology/anthropology/history classes, not religion classes. The notion that God created the universe would make sense there. But it has no place in a science class.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264557 - 14/09/2005 20:26
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Certainly "God created it" is as good an explanation for how the universe started as anything science has (which is pretty much nothing), but, in my experience, ID proponents, or at least the ones who identify themselves as such, and specifically the ones pushing for ID in the classroom have a much larger idea than that of what ID is
This is unfortunate, but not suprising. The idea was to get people talking about God vs no-God, rather than evolution vs. creation. Through evolutionsts not buying the simplicity of the argument and seeing a greater agenda, and creationists not being willing to settle for a lesser argument, it seems we have the same old debate. This is somewhat dissapointing because I think a conversation around the basic ideas of ID (that things we observe in science demonstrate a world crafted by an intelligent designer) would be very interesting if it could get beyond the creation vs. evolution debate.
I also think, however, that the main mission of Christians is to preach the gospel (salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the solution to our sin problem) and that creation is a decidedly lesser doctrine. I fear we spend too much time talking about creation and let the more important things get away from us.
But my origional point was this- it is impossible to study life and make observation about it apart from our view of faith. How we report science, interpret literature, decide governmental policy, etc. is all influenced, if not directly, by our philosophies.
It is all well and good to say that religion has no place in a science class, but it is impossible to remove. There are those who believe that evolution is false. Many, many people. And they do so on the basis of their religious beliefs. To teach evolution in a public school, suported by the unparital government of these very same non-evolutionists, means making a choice that what these people believe about science is wrong. And if it were to go the other way, the government would be taking a stand against those with a different belief.
Now you can say all you want that what these people believe isn't science, but they think it is. So on what basis are they wrong? To stand on the idea that one person's philosophy wrong because it invovles faith in "fairy tales" is fine for a personal assessment, but should the government make decisions on such a basis? Well, the government has to make SOME decision, because at the end of the day we have all these kids going to school and we'd better teaching them something.
I'm not arguing here that what I believe should be taught it public schools. In fact, for the moment, I'm not even arguing that my beliefs should be given equal press. What I am saying is that it is unavoidable for the government to "take sides", however good the reasoning is, and support one individua's belief above another. But if it is unavoidable, lets not decide against someone and tell them that we aren't favoring one side over another- this might ease the concious of those making such decisions, but to the ones whom this goes against it is just insulting.
I do think it regrettable that my beliefs seem to get a second rate status to the (apparently more popular) ideas of humanism. But I also think it is unavoidable- someone is going to lose out.
I have another point, though- there is no objective truth to measure rightness by, at least for a democratic society. Imagine if suddenly a new concept of math became popular where 6*9=42. Would it be wrong? Not according to society, and against what else can we measure? The teachings of those who have gone before us? We can't always rely on historical truths to be accurate today- many times we reject them, and for good reason.
So how would we feel about this "new math" being taught in our schools, especially if it was nonsensical (rather than something moderatly reasonable, like base 13, which is strange but still makes sense). We'd all be angry for certain. But if it is the popular understanding of mathmatics, what can we do but try to make people understand the grave mistaken being done to our children? And likely, we'd probably all decide the best course is to teach our children ourselves so that they are truly equipped to deal with the real world.
Evolution/ Creation aside, I've noted that humanism creeps up in almost every subject (except for perhaps mathmatics) as a subtle, unspoken assumption. Most obvious is its mark on literary interpretation, but it is there in other subjects. I'll agree that science, like mathmatics, does seem to be less opportunities for takinging philosophical or religious "sides", but it does happen. What can I do about this? Well, someone has to lose, and in these instances it looks like it's me. So what I do is try to make people aware of where I think problems are, and probably put my children in a place where they will learn the truths best to prepare them for their future. It's not what it should be, but a perfect system is unattainable as long as we hold conflicting beliefs.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264558 - 14/09/2005 20:44
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: bonzi]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Jeff's patience and good-natured attempts to explain what it is like being his flavor of a Christian (both doctrinary and emotionaly) is trully amazing. I was never able to discuss these matters in a similar way, not even with my Catholic brother.
I appreciate this (and other similar words from other posters) more than you know. I think it is the embodiment of the great commission to share with others our beliefs and experiences, so for you to say this makes all the time spent talking here worth it. Plus, I have been stretched quite a bit through these conversations and driven to greater depths of faith. The efforts of JBjorgen and Cybjorg should not go unnoted, however, as I think they both have done an excellent job of sharing as well. While the three of us probably differ on some minor points, we all are coming from a very similar position and it's gratifying to see one of them say something in a way that I've not been able to.
Quote:
I believe in equal treatment of all religions very strongly. We must not be tempted into adopting one religion as "the true" or official one, just because we happen to live in a region where it prevails statisitcally.
Aside from the practical impossibility of doing this (how many religions are there in the world?) I agree with this, at least as far as government goes. Now you know I believe very strongly that Christianity is the one true religion, but I think it is an important part of faith that one cannot be forced into belief. Thus, it only makes sense to live in a society that allows for personal choices about religion and faith. I do think, however, that people have gotten mighty sensitive about what constitutes the government "establishing a religion". I don't think teachers provideing some good natured influences by expressing who they are (not using their platforms as pulpits) is the "government establishing a religion", but we've drawn that line pretty far out. It seems everyone is afraid that if teachers mention they have faith in Jesus (or any other deity), their students will be forever marred. This seems as irrational as Christians not wanting their children to be exposed to any other ideas.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264559 - 15/09/2005 02:01
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
|
Quote:
This seems as irrational as Christians not wanting their children to be exposed to any other ideas.
I agree with the irrationality of this concept.l. After all, I'm a Christian raising my family in a Muslim country. Talk about being inundated by other religious influences.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264560 - 15/09/2005 13:07
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
|
Quote:
it is impossible to study life and make observation about it apart from our view of faith
I completely disagree. While your world view may be tainted by faith, there are many of us who can view things objectively. Sometimes I don't, admittedly, but I certainly have the capability. For example, I would not deny the existence of God (or whatever other supernatural element) if the evidence presented itself, but I have no reason to believe in it now, and I'm not going to live my life by a credo that assumes something that not only might not be, but has no evidence of being. I'm sure you feel you have evidence, but I do not, and I would likely deny your evidence as coincidence.
Quote:
There are those who believe that evolution is false. Many, many people.
There were also many, many people who believed that the Earth was flat. That didn't make them right. "Science" by populism is a terrible notion.
Quote:
Now you can say all you want that what these people believe isn't science, but they think it is. So on what basis are they wrong?
Science depends on reproducible results. So unless you can convince God to make a new creature out of thin air (or, to the much lessannoying ID notion, create a new universe and let it evolve new creatures), it's not science. Now, I know you're thinking that evolution is not reproducible, but it is. Bacteria have been modified through controlled evolution. Flowers have been. And it's been seen in those moths mentioned previously. It's not been taken up much on a larger scale, as far as I know, because it becomes an awfully long-term process with higher life forms that have longer viability and gestation periods, and also calls into question a lot of ethical problems (eugenics, for example), but that doesn't mean that it's not reproducible.
Quote:
Imagine if suddenly a new concept of math became popular where 6*9=42. Would it be wrong?
Um, yes. Why do you think mathematics was chosen as the language sent out on SETI-type missions? What you're saying is akin to the idea that if we decided that the speed of light was not 300,000,000m/s then it would change. There are observable hard and fast rules of the universe. We have not yet discovered them all, but there are some that are absolute, and they're mathematics. Now, it's perfectly fine to say that God created mathematics and defined the laws of physics. But it doesn't prove anything or lend any greater understanding, so it doesn't belong in a science class. (Slightly off topic, have you read Contact? Not seen the movie, but read the book? There's some very interesting theology in it related to this notion and I wonder how you'd feel about it.)
Quote:
So how would we feel about this "new math" being taught in our schools, especially if it was nonsensical .... We'd all be angry for certain.
You mean like having religion taught in a science class?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264561 - 15/09/2005 15:05
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
Since there are no explainable (proven) scientific methods, it seems that all theories require some faith
Well stated!
What differentiates the two sides of the argument is that the Scientific Method proponents are perfectly willing to state that evolution, or relativity, or string theory, or [insert doctrine of your choice here] IS a theory, pending more evidence to either prove it or disprove it; while the Religion proponents seem to take the attitude that "...see? You can't conclusively verify your theory, so that proves that God did it."
It is disheartening to me when people [certainly not Jeff, in this case!] seem unable to differentiate between the concepts of proof and faith.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264562 - 15/09/2005 15:22
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
|
More likely I doubt very many people are lying, but instead are mistaken.Jeff, you never cease to amaze me. Here you are, being "attacked" on all sides, and still you insist on seeing your "opponents" in the best possible light. While you and I are unlikely to come to much agreemment in the area of Faith, to me you are the embodiment of all that is best about Christianity. Your contributions to this bbs have veen well stated, informative, and while certainly biased have remained non-confrontational. Please, please, keep up the good work! tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264563 - 15/09/2005 19:55
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
While your world view may be tainted by faith, there are many of us who can view things objectively.
Notice I didn't say, "our faith", but "our view of faith". By that I mean how we think about faith, whether in a positive or negative light, influences how we study life. Earlier you said that religion and football were different, one being apropriate to talk about from a teacher and one not, on the basis that religion requires beliefs in fairy tales. That is an example of your view of faith influencing what you believe is allowable in the classroom.
Quote:
There were also many, many people who believed that the Earth was flat. That didn't make them right.
No, and I'm not saying they are/aren't. What I AM saying is that with two opposing viewpoints, you have to make an unavoidable choice. And when you are forced to make a choice, such as with evolution, you are adressing people's religion in a science classroom, intentional or not.
Quote:
Science depends on reproducible results
So says you (and I), but who makes us right about what science is or isn't?
Quote:
Bacteria have been modified through controlled evolution. Flowers have been. And it's been seen in those moths mentioned previously
Virtually no one denies evolution on the small scale, only where it invovles species changing from one to another. But once again, I'm not arguing about evolution anyway.
Quote:
Um, yes. Why do you think mathematics was chosen as the language sent out on SETI-type missions? What you're saying is akin to the idea that if we decided that the speed of light was not 300,000,000m/s then it would change. There are observable hard and fast rules of the universe. We have not yet discovered them all, but there are some that are absolute, and they're mathematics. Now, it's perfectly fine to say that God created mathematics and defined the laws of physics.
Well, you're missing my point here, I think. I was trying to put you and I on the same side here. Of course it'd be wrong, but if the majority of people accept something, that's what's going to be taught to our children. See, that's the position I feel I'm in. I see fundamental truths that are being denied (or ignored) in public schools, and its maddening at times. It's just as wrong to me as the "new math" would be to us all, but I'm really powerless to combat it.
And no, I don't want relgion classes in school. I don't think the government should be supporting one religion over any other. That takes away people's choices and opportunities for true faith. I just think the schools come off as anti-religion, which the government not ought to to.
Quote:
You mean like having religion taught in a science class?
Exactly- I almost used that as an example, but I was trying to go a little more abstract so we could get away from the "I believe this, you believe that" type stuff. I was trying to drive home how it feels when what is taught in school is inconsistent with one's fundamental believes and knowledge of the truth. In a democratic society, the majority rules, and the majority doesn't always support the truth. Admittedly, the "new math" was probably not my brightest analogy.
As an aside- I really need to stop trying to make points with analogies. It's a bad habit and never as effective as I think it is going to be. 
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264564 - 15/09/2005 20:01
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
while the Religion proponents seem to take the attitude that "...see? You can't conclusively verify your theory, so that proves that God did it."
I think the genuine attitude here is, "I know God exists because of my personal experience with Him, and you can't prove He doesn't". It's not that Christians think that lack of verification proves the point, it's just that they know they are correct by other evidence and that carries over into their attitude. I often find it very difficult to debate these matters in light of my personal experiences because the answers are so obvious to me. I work very hard not to expect others to have the same "evidence" that I do.
Of course, the ID arguments do explicitly say that science gives evidence to the existence of God, but those arguments generally are made from more than lack of evidence of an opposing viewpoint.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#264565 - 15/09/2005 20:08
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tanstaafl.]
|
carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
|
Quote:
Here you are, being "attacked" on all sides
Nah, I almost never feel attacked on this BBS. Even those with the harshest criticisms do so without animosity. When I truly feel attacked I just stop posting, as there's no winner in those situations.
As for the rest of your post, I'll just say "thanks". I appreciate the kind words and hope for many more opportunities to have such discussions. This BBS is truly remarkable in its ability to have such conversations without personal attacks; it is a compliment to all who post here that discussions like this one can carry on for so many pages without requiring moderator intervention. I appreciate you all!
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index