#264506 - 07/09/2005 14:30
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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I think that it is inescapable for a person's personal philosophies to spill over into their teaching. It's part of the beauty of having a flesh and blood teacher rather than a computer or book. Yet we ask those of faith to stifle this part of themselves. It's an unrealistic expectation and a hinderence to letting childrent experience the true market of ideas that are out there.
If a teacher fails to teach their subject because he or she is preaching, that is a problem. If a teacher fails a student for not believing the right thing, that is a problem. But a teacher should be as free to talk about faith as they are their favorite football team or TV show. At least, that's what I think.
See, now this is where I have a problem. Isn't it great, for Christians at least, that there are probably* a whole helluvalot more Christian teachers than there are Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist ones? So then, if these teachers were allowed to talk about their faith in the classroom, wouldn't the faith of Christianity be "pushed" a whole lot more than any of the other faiths?
* I don't have any statistics on this, but I imagine that in the US, of those public school teachers who practice a faith, most are Christian?
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#264507 - 07/09/2005 14:32
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, in all honesty, "A Wizard of Earthsea" is widely regarded as a solid piece of literature, magic or not. Then again, so are "Atlas Shrugged", "The Mists of Avalon", and "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", each of which directly espouse their own philosophies, one of which is unapologetically Christian. And they're probably as likely to be read in school as "A Wizard of Earthsea" (which, oddly, I did read for high school).
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264508 - 07/09/2005 14:40
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: visuvius]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
See, now this is where I have a problem. Isn't it great, for Christians at least, that there are probably* a whole helluvalot more Christian teachers than there are Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist ones? So then, if these teachers were allowed to talk about their faith in the classroom, wouldn't the faith of Christianity be "pushed" a whole lot more than any of the other faiths?
* I don't have any statistics on this, but I imagine that in the US, of those public school teachers who practice a faith, most are Christian?
In the UK a lot of "public" school places are provided by schools run by the Anglican or Catholic churches, we're looking at moving and we'll have no (sensible) choice but to send our kids to one of them. Personally I'd like to send them to a secular school that had R.E. lessons, but I ain't got that option.
I don't like the idea of faith education at all, I'm uncomfortable with the push in the U.K. for muslim schools
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#264509 - 07/09/2005 20:16
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tahir]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
In the UK a lot of "public" school places are provided by schools run by the Anglican or Catholic churches, we're looking at moving and we'll have no (sensible) choice but to send our kids to one of them. Personally I'd like to send them to a secular school that had R.E. lessons, but I ain't got that option.
I was sent to a Church of England grant maintained school - got a fairly decent education as a result and was thoroughly converted to athiesm. If Christian parents want their teenage children to become god fearing adults I strongly advise against sending them to a church school!
Rob
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#264510 - 07/09/2005 20:26
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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You're worried that schoolchildren will believe that the metaphysics in a book about wizards is an accurate depiction of the real world's metaphysics?
Just to be clear, no, that's not my concern. I'm looking at the greater themes of the book, as Bitt points out later. And I'm not really concerned even that this theme would be explored- I think that non-Christian themes should be explored. I just think that Christian themse (and muslim themes, etc.) should be explored as well. I've read all of the books that Bitt talks about and recognize the themes of each and am glad that I've seen those perspectives.
"The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" would be a great example of a book with a Christian theme, and if Bitt is correct that that book is taught in school it kind of deflates my argument quite a bit. It's about as hardcore Christian allegory as it gets.
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Does failing to discuss the elves-don't-really-exist viewpoint damage literary discussion of The Lord Of The Rings, or make the discussion dangerous in some way?
It would have been really cool to do LOTR in high school, but I doubt anyone does. There are Christian and non-Christian themes throughout that would be really neat to explore.
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I still think you're imagining a conspiracy where none exists.
Let me be clear on this- I DON'T believe that there is a conspiracy. I think the current siutation is not what it should be, but I don't believe it is by anyone's overt actions. It is the result of some (I think) faulty notions being implemented in our schools.
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I don't know what the breaks are in US Christianity, but here in the UK both Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism (i.e. the denominations who are very big on about inherent wickedness) are in the minority compared to liberal Protestant denominations, many of whom downplay that sort of remark by Paul.
Inherent wickedness is consistent with orthodox teaching that many churches follow. You tune into a Christian music station or go to a Christian bookstore and most of the products will follow this theology.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264511 - 07/09/2005 20:40
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yes, but really only the fundamentalists listen to Christian radio stations (ignoring Gospel stations) or frequent Christian bookstores. However, there is probably a much greater percentage of fundamentalist Christians in the US than there is in the UK.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264512 - 08/09/2005 08:59
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: rob]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Quote:
If Christian parents want their teenage children to become god fearing adults I strongly advise against sending them to a church school!
Rob
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#264513 - 08/09/2005 19:25
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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journeyman
Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 56
Loc: Las Vegas
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Quote:
I think that it is inescapable for a person's personal philosophies to spill over into their teaching. It's part of the beauty of having a flesh and blood teacher rather than a computer or book. Yet we ask those of faith to stifle this part of themselves. It's an unrealistic expectation and a hinderence to letting childrent experience the true market of ideas that are out there.
I have no intention of getting involved in the basic issues of this discussion. But I noticed this assumption hadn't been addressed yet, so...
Computers and books don't fall off trees, already full of perfectly unbiased information. If the information from those sources is less biased than a flesh-and-blood teacher, it's only because of collaborative input and editing.
The "beauty" of a live teacher isn't personality, it's personalized interactivity. Books and computers can't adapt to satisfy an individual student's needs. The fact that this so often lends a personal bias to the subject taught is an unfortunate consequence, not beautiful.
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#264514 - 11/09/2005 05:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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...pointing out a situation where one belief is selected as superior to another belief. And it IS an issue that is being taught in science classrooms right now
I wonder how it is possible that something so unlikely and in such direct contradiction to literal Biblical interpretation, such as evolution, could be selected as superior to another belief, such as Intelligent Design.
Oh, wait... do you suppose it could be that that one belief system has tangible, reproducible evidence that can be directly observed and held in one's own hands, as compared to another that has no basis in reality other than a desperate desire on the part of a vocal, uninformed minority without the slightest concept of scientific method to pass their ludicrous ideas off as fact?
Naaahhh, it couldn't be that simple. Could it?
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#264515 - 11/09/2005 10:02
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31602
Loc: Seattle, WA
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a desperate desire on the part of a vocal, uninformed minority
Vocal and uninformed? Yes. Minority? No. Remember that for every attempt to get I.D. taught in schools, there's a church of some kind behind it. Even if the lobbying organization goes to great pains to hide their church affiliation (they don't always), it's still there. And, in our country at least, churches and their congregations (as a whole) are the majority.
The political power that the Christian churches wield in our country is the only reason I.D. is even being remotely considered by any school boards at all.
Thank goodness science isn't decided by numbers of votes.
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#264516 - 11/09/2005 11:39
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Oh, wait... do you suppose it could be that that one belief system has tangible, reproducible evidence that can be directly observed and held in one's own hands...
I wasn't aware that it was reproducible or observed.
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#264517 - 11/09/2005 13:26
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
I wasn't aware that it was reproducible or observed.
As opposed to "I.D." which is reproducible and observed, making it science, right?
When a forensic expert observes a dead body, with entry and exit wound consistent with a bullet embedded into a wall behind the corpse, she concludes that the victim has been shot. No alternative theories (including those of divine intervention) are generally being postulated, despite the fact that nobody actually witnessed the shooting*. Similarly, fosill record is hard evidence, although nobody spent four billion years dilligently taking notes of each and every mutation and its effect.
However, evolution is being directly observed. Ever heard of antibiotic-resistant bacteria? What do you think, how and why did they acquire those traits?
Evolution is hard science. Those blathering "even scientists admit it's theory, not fact" show they don't know (or, more probably, pretend not to know) that scientists generally call any complex, consistent and predictive set of observations and descriptions of natural phenomena a theory. For example, there is hardly any more rock solid and tested to death piece of modern physics than special relativity; yet, it is called theory.
"Intelligent Design" in its more primitive, Bible-literalist form is simply one of thousands creation myths, all believed in by certain number of people, some more beautiful than others, all arbitrary. It has its place in schools, in sociology, anthropology or literature classes. In its extremely "detached" (non-Biblical) form, which says that something or someone created our Universe (tuned the Big Bang, so to speak), i.e. where it touches "anthropic principle", it is (at least for now) firmly outside the scope of science. Its truth being undecidable, it is no more than a nice and harmless topic for idle speculation.
Incidentally, science is not being dilligently undermined only from right-wing and religious quarters; there are numerous nominally left-wing "social theorists" trying to describe our world not in objective terms, not as result of divine creation either, but as a social construct. I think I already linked this site, but it is worth revisiting. Try to apply, for example, this example of stellar thinking to (successful) efforts to exterminate smallpox. Their tongue in cheek dictionary of fashionable nonsense.
*) Actually, Pete Seeger in this recording for Smithsonian thinks otherwise 
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#264518 - 11/09/2005 13:46
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
a desperate desire on the part of a vocal, uninformed minority
Vocal and uninformed? Yes. Minority? No....The political power that the Christian churches wield in our country is the only reason I.D. is even being remotely considered by any school boards at all.
Minority? YES. Sure, most North Americans attend church at some point in their lives (and deaths), but most of them are NOT behind this attempt to stupify the masses. The key phrase is indeed politcal power, which in the USA at least, is only rarely a reflection of the majority. Probably the same most other places, too.
Political power here is simply the ability to manipulate the voting system (people, officials, boundaries, laws, etc..) into placing the specific people needed into positions of power -- eg. the USA presidency -- from where they can then pay back that favour in whatever means is required.
A voting majority is not necessary for this, and even when obtained it does not necessarily reflect the majority view on any specific issue.
Cheers
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#264519 - 11/09/2005 14:37
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: bonzi]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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All I'm saying is that no one has witnessed either evolution or intelligent-design creation. We can theorize about both based on what we can currently test or observe.
And the fossil record is definitely evidence of something. There’s a lot of argument and speculation about what that is, of course. Conclusive evidence coming soon, I’m sure.
But this is a digressing rabbit trail...
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#264520 - 11/09/2005 15:44
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
All I'm saying is that no one has witnessed either evolution or intelligent-design creation. We can theorize about both based on what we can currently test or observe.
Hardly. Again, this is a misappropriation of how scientists use the word "theory" (what most commoners would call "fact", supported by tons of real live facts and observations of evolving lifeforms) versus how the ID folks are using it (what all commoners would call "fantasy", with no basis in fact whatsoever, requiring suspension of disbelief to envision).
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And the fossil record is definitely evidence of something
Absolutely. Time for the ID folks to go and read The Map That Changed The World for how all of this has already been thrashed over before.
Cheers
Edited by mlord (11/09/2005 23:44)
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#264521 - 11/09/2005 22:07
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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ID boneheads
Please avoid the name-calling. There are several individuals here including myself that hold this point of view. While I realize you disagree with extreme prejudice, I do resent being called a "bonehead." I hope that I would never resort to calling those I disagree with "evolution boneheads."
I do appreciate your posting of "The Map That Changed The World" and will try to take a look at it. Thanks.
EDIT: no real offense taken Mark...I realize you were just being passionate in your reply.
_________________________
~ John
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#264522 - 11/09/2005 23:40
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Ack.. yes, bonehead was a bit over the top. Thanks for being kind about, though!
The Map That Changed The World is actually the biography of an English chap, who more or less discovered modern geology. And along the way upset the entire church belief system that the world was only 10000 years old. Or something like that -- my memory of books seldom lasts more than a year.
Cheers!
Edited by mlord (11/09/2005 23:46)
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#264523 - 11/09/2005 23:54
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JBjorgen]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
ID boneheads
EDIT: no real offense taken Mark...I realize you were just being passionate in your reply.
I'm a bit offended. Passion or no, resorting to name calling sounds to me like a hint of bigotry was creaping into the statement - the very point of this thread.
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#264524 - 12/09/2005 17:55
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
The political power that the Christian churches wield in our country is the only reason I.D. is even being remotely considered by any school boards at all.
Thank goodness science isn't decided by numbers of votes.
I'm throwing my support behind this theory.
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#264525 - 13/09/2005 00:56
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
I'm throwing my support behind this theory.
Oh, good! That just saved me a ton of typing!
Cheers!
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#264526 - 13/09/2005 05:10
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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All I'm saying is that no one has witnessed either evolution or intelligent-design creation I'm afraid that turns out not to be the case. One of the best examples is chronicled here. The gist of the article states: The best example of a quick change in the environment and a species ability to adapt concerns the the color of the Gypsy Moths in England. When the industrial revolution occurred, coal and other industrial factories spewed out massive amounts of air pollutants, so much so that even during the day the skies were as dark as night. The original color of the gypsy moths was a light gray; such a color blended in with the trees in their environment, and acted as camouflage against predators. With the change in the environment the camouflage adaptation no longer functioned because the tree trunks were darker colored from the air pollution. The dark gray gypsy, once at a disadvantage and quickly eaten by predators, now survived and bred, while their lighter counterparts were eaten. As a result the gypsy moth, through adaptation and natural selection, was able to gradually change it's coloring to a dark gray-black, to match the surface of the trees covered in pollution. The gypsy moths didn't just decide one day to change their color, at the basis of such a change was the concept of Natural Selection.
There are many other notable examples of evolution on a short enough time scale for direct human observation. Changes in the shape of birds' beaks to accommodate changes in vegetation in Hawaii come to mind. These sorts of changes are indeed tangible, observable, reproducible -- in short, conforming to the dictates of Scientific Method which is the cornerstone of all modern knowledge and technological advancement. tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#264527 - 13/09/2005 05:46
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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You guys did read the further links from the one I posted earlier, right? Important to remember to celebrate on Monday in Pirate costume (or ninja, if you prefer)
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#264528 - 13/09/2005 12:48
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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But couldn't God have made them change?
Of course, the answer to that question (assuming you believe in God) is "of course", because if He did create everything, then He created evolution as well. It was nice of Him to make things work in a consistent manner across the universe so that we're not constantly at the mercy of an individual's whim, though.
The thing that irritates me the most about ID (other than the apparent desire to be ignorant) is that it assumes that God is incompetent enough to need to constantly come back to his creation and tweak it all the time. Wouldn't a greater God have been able to set things in motion and not see what happens, but know what would happen beforehand and have designed it to work that way? Or maybe this universe is running under an interactive debugger.
It seems to me that evolution is not inconsistent with there being a God, but ID ignores what humans can observe and assumes a less competent God.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264529 - 13/09/2005 17:42
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
assumes a less competent God.
Which leads to bigger questions.
Like, who is putting this ID nonsense into the brains of otherwise intelligent, thinking, church goers? There's no way that a few thousand God loving people suddenly came up with the same God-is-incompetent theory spontaneously on their own.
Some non-God human has come up with this crusade, for some form of personal gain, and is managing to dupe a bunch of otherwise smart people into pushing it for his/her ends.
I wonder why? And who?
Well, the who part is most likely one or more people with very high stakes on having a large following of devout believers, enriching their pockets or boosting their personal power base. The more that their own religious beliefs are pushed onto the general populace at a young and vulnerable age, then the larger their long-term following will be.
And the neat thing is, they picked a method of doing so that completely distracts many people from asking these very questions (who and why).
Maybe that's got something to do with it. A very intelligent campaign design, for self-perpetuation. Assuming enough of us are willing to suspend our God given reasoning and intelligence so as to not question such a lousy design.
Cheers
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#264530 - 13/09/2005 18:23
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I don't think that there's any conspiracy behind it. I just think it's the work of a group of people who somehow think that evolution is in contradiction with their belief in God, which I still hold as being absurd. (If everything was created by God, what prevents Him from having created evolution?)
The only reason for it is if you believe the Bible literally, which is itself absurd based solely on the fact that it has so many internal inconsistencies, from contrdictory viewpoints, to historical inaccuracies, to "plot" points changing, to inconsistent internal logic.
My thought is that it's based on the notion that science in general, and evolution in particular, is set out to destroy religion, or at least Christianity, and while I'll admit that there are a lot of scientists who, no doubt, have that bias, the facts have no bias, and many of the scientists also have no bias. Many more are active Christians and have no trouble reconciling God and evolution.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264531 - 13/09/2005 18:56
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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The thing I've never understood about the argument between evolution and ID is that it seems no-one in the ID camp has ever stepped back and said "maybe this evolution thing is part of the intelligent design." I mean... the "intelligent design" was such that every living thing in it grows and matures at some rate. So the next logical step is to make the design grow and mature, too, which is something that can be planned for from the start, by building the process into the original design.
The whole ID thing has nothing to do with science, but science can easily be part of ID. Strip off the ID stuff, and the science remains the same.
I'm reminded of the (timely) joke about the man standing on the roof of his house as the flood waters get higher and higher. He prays for God to save him. A guy in a canoe paddles up and offers a lift. "No thanks, God is going to save me!" The water gets up to his waist. A bit later, a power boat comes by, with the same offer. Again, "No thanks, God is going to save me!" The water is up to his neck, when a helicopter lowers a basket to him. He refuses to get in, since, after all, "God is going to save me!" Naturally, he drowns a bit later. The man gets to heaven, meets God, and says "I prayed for you to save me, but you let me die!" God's answer? "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, and you refused to get in any of them. What more did you want me to do?"
Supposing, for the sake of argument that there is a heaven, are these ID folks going to get there, only to have God tell them "evolution was the intelligent design, but you refused to listen!"
Cheers,
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#264532 - 13/09/2005 18:59
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
The only reason for it is if you believe the Bible literally, which is itself absurd based solely on the fact that it has so many internal inconsistencies, from contrdictory viewpoints, to historical inaccuracies, to "plot" points changing, to inconsistent internal logic.
You'd think that just the two different versions of creation in the Bible would be enough to blow the whole "the Bible is the literal truth" argument out of the water without anything else...
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#264534 - 13/09/2005 19:03
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Just for the record, ID and evolution are compatible. ID only asserts that some intelligence is responsible for creation and that this is evident by studying the world around us. Likewise, evolution does not assert that God does not exist.
In a practical sense, most proponents of ID happen to also not believe in evolution, but they do not do so on the basis of ID. Rather, Christians who do not believe in evolution do so on the basis that evolution requires death to have happened before the fall and sin entering the world. Since death is a consequence of sin, it therefore follows that evolution (which requires death as part of its process) is not consistend with the character of God as revealed in the scripture (ie. God would not permit death in a world not overcome by sin).
So Theistic Evolution is consistent with ID, but not the concept of death entering the world after the fall.
Not that this changes the argument signficantly, but I figured it's best to know where the real issue is.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264535 - 13/09/2005 19:08
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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The only reason for it is if you believe the Bible literally, which is itself absurd based solely on the fact that it has so many internal inconsistencies, from contrdictory viewpoints, to historical inaccuracies, to "plot" points changing, to inconsistent internal logic.
You'd think that just the two different versions of creation in the Bible would be enough to blow the whole "the Bible is the literal truth" argument out of the water without anything else...
And that doesn't even say anything about how many different versions there are of the Bible itself! There's even a "parallel Bible" in print that has 4 different versions side-by-side-by-side-by-side.
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