#264476 - 06/09/2005 18:18
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Should a 10 year old be given a full explanation of the 3 major religions, and then a quick overview of the 15 bajillion other religions so that from there he/she can make an informed decision? Or is the parents right to choose to bring their child up in faith of their choice, the one that has worked best for them and which they would like to extend to their offspring.
I don't think a 10-year-old needs a full explanation of other people's religions; it's not so much about detailing the other religions themselves, but about respecting the humanity of adherents of other religions. I think a 10-year-old can, and should, know that different people have very different beliefs about religion, and that it's not right to hate or disrespect people whose beliefs differ from one's own, except maybe where those beliefs lead to genuine human suffering.
Peter
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#264477 - 06/09/2005 18:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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The sorts of parents who don't even want their child exposed to humanism, Islam, Buddhism, atheism and so on until the child is sure in his or her Christianity, strike me as being terrified that their religion isn't good enough to win out in a free and informed decision on the child's part.
The problem is that in the public schools you don't get exposed to all of that- you get exposed to humanism and that's pretty much it. I'd have 0 problem sending my child to a school that was truly open to the marketplace of ideas, but it just isn't the case. If Christanity, Islam, Buddism, or any other relgion were to be discussed in a classroom that teacher would risk being fired. A good friend of mine had to skate that line all of the time because he was a debate coach and often the kids would bring up faith during issues. He'd have to be very careful about correcting their arguments and pointing out flaws in their reasoning. It shouldn't be that hard. He was there to teach debate, and debate often finds itself in the realm of religion and philosophy. Yet he had one arm tied behind his back as he worked with these kids, all of whom really wanted to discuss religion. In fact, the biggest problem he had was correcting the terrible argument that the Christian students would come up with. He had 0 credibility with them because he had to remain silent on the issue and tacetly affirm the secular side of the argument.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264478 - 06/09/2005 18:25
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: visuvius]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Well, I am firmly of the opinion that kids should be brought up with no religion - no anti religion, but definitely no religion - because anything you do before they cana make their own mind up is pretty much brainwashing.
To cheer up the grandparents, both sets of whom are christians, we blessed our kids in a kind of non-denominational way (although it was a christian minister) but we feel if they want religion they will choose it. I sincerely hope they don't, because I place the blame for most of the major conflicts the world has seen at the foot of religion, but if they do I will support them.
I know this sounds small minded, and I really respect folks like Jeff and others who have a deep rooted faith and seem like wonderful people, but I don't see any place for religion in my world, or that of the people I know. We are reliant solely on self, friends and family, and we love it that way. Religion just seems like giving an excuse for failure, that will be sorted by a higher being. I don't believe in a higher being so want to ensure that I srt all my issues myself before I die.
I have no forgiveness other than that of my family and peers, and that is the way I like it.
I kind of agree with Douglas Adams on this topic, I think.
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#264479 - 06/09/2005 18:26
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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The problem is that in the public schools you don't get exposed to all of that- you get exposed to humanism and that's pretty much it.
Do you mean that teachers actively promote humanism, or just that they don't much talk about God outside religious education lessons? If the latter, I don't think that counts as "tacit atheism" any more than a lack of much talk about the world being round outside geography lessons, counts as "tacit flat-earthism".
Peter
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#264480 - 06/09/2005 19:02
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Do you mean that teachers actively promote humanism, or just that they don't much talk about God
I think that is active, though not intentional. You see, when you leave religious teaching out, something has to fill that void. When you discuss literature then you discuss the philosophies found in the books. But only philosophies not tied to a specific religions are fair game here.
All throughout my education self-love and the teaching of humans as nobel creaters was emphasized. Not once did I experience a discussion that mankind was fallen and sinful, unless it was a historic footnote or an example of religious persecution. Yet I think Christianity is not alone in its view of humanity. So if we are being religiously neutral, why do we only get perspectives opposite to that which a great many in our country profess? I think the reason is that it is impossible to be neutral. We all have underlying philosophies, and when one group must stifle theirs and not discuss it, those with "acceptable" philosophies will be heard.
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outside religious education lessons?
There is no such thing as "religous education lessons" in our public schools.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264481 - 06/09/2005 19:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Well, I am firmly of the opinion that kids should be brought up with no religion - no anti religion, but definitely no religion
Unfortunatly I just don't think that's possible. Because schools don't just teach us facts, they teach us how to think about those facts. And how you think about things is directly tied to your views of religion and philosophy. If you teach a child to think about facts outside of the context of religion, then you are teaching anti-religion. I don't think there's any way to teach people how to think in a religiously neutral way.
What we end up with these days is that parents who want their children to be publicly educated have to "bolt on" religion after the fact in Sunday School. Since there are conflicts there with what they get at school, this can sometimes be difficult (though sometimes difficult things are the most healthy).
My story is that I was publicly educated with Christiantiy "bolted on" on Sunday mornings. Of course, as many of you know already (because I've told my story before), my parents were very open to letting me make my own decisions. As soon as I was old enough to want to stop going to Sunday School, they let me. It lasted about three weeks as I established my freedom. I explored things of faith and ended up trusting in Christ as my savior. And in the end, my faith looks very different from anyone else in my family (my father is an athiest, my mother is a liberal Christian, and my sister is somewhere in between myself and my mother).
My mother was always asking me questions, causing me to question what I was learning in school and what I heard on the radio. I was huge into Rush, who is definitely NOT a Christian band. She would question lyrics like "why does it happen/ because it happens" and how that made me feel. How it affected my beliefs. It was this healthy upbringing that gave me the freedom to choose faith in Jesus. I was raised in Christianity sort of, but the real decisions were left up to me.
I do lament that the schools seem to emphasize philosophies that I don't hold, but that is the reality of living in a secular world. As my mother showed me, a parent can raise a child to make intelligent faith deicions and not be railroaded by the world around him or her.
If it were only about faith issues, I would probably not choose private schools for my children. But lately it seems that public schools are educating more and more poorly and the best teachers are leaving. When my friends who are teachers in public schools say the won't put their kids in public schools, that causes me pause. And only one of my friends who was a teacher is still doing it- and only part time at that. The rest were just too miserable because of how their hands were tied (and this is not just about religious issues). By contrast, I've met many teachers who work in private schools for less money and are completely happy. It just seems to be a healthier enviornment all around to put my children in a private school. We'll see though, we're still years away from that.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264482 - 06/09/2005 19:47
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Does this mean you can't love yourself? (That's an honest question. I'm not laying a trap.)
No trap. In fact, I don't love myself. I feel that I am a sinner in need of daily mercy. However, I believe that God loves me so incredibly much that He died on the cross for me. So do I feel that I have worth? I do, but it does not come from myself, it comes from the love of God.
There's a lot worth in discussing in this thread but I don't have time now. I'm replying to this one because it is such an incomprehensible concept to me and, frankly, sounds like a miserable way to live. How can you have any sense of self worth?
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#264483 - 06/09/2005 19:48
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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All throughout my education self-love and the teaching of humans as nobel creaters was emphasized. Not once did I experience a discussion that mankind was fallen and sinful, unless it was a historic footnote or an example of religious persecution.
So where would such a discussion be relevant? "The plays of William Shakespeare are great works of English literature, but just imagine how much better they'd be if he hadn't been fallen and sinful"? "The periodic table of elements was first laid out by Mendeleev, who incidentally was fallen and sinful, and so despite sometimes appearing quite useful to chemists and physicists, his work is inherently imperfect and flawed"? Most of any well-rounded education consists of the creations or deductions of humans, and I can't see how their state of grace or otherwise is an issue.
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Yet I think Christianity is not alone in its view of humanity.
Wasn't salvation by grace St Paul's idea? According to Wikipedia, the notion of even pious adherents still being full of sin isn't really the same in Judaism and doesn't exist in Islam. Buddhists' and Hindus' samsara isn't really the same thing either. Fallenness is AFAICT a pretty Christianity-specific concept, and not shared by all Christians at that.
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So if we are being religiously neutral, why do we only get perspectives opposite to that which a great many in our country profess? I think the reason is that it is impossible to be neutral. We all have underlying philosophies, and when one group must stifle theirs and not discuss it, those with "acceptable" philosophies will be heard.
I don't really see omitting any discussion of humanity's state of grace or otherwise, as being "opposite" to confirming our fallenness and sinfulness. The opposite would be "In addition to being a great playwright, Shakespeare was thought of by God as being well righteous". Nobody says that!
And after all, if all humans are fallen and sinful, surely it doesn't need mentioning every time?
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There is no such thing as "religous education lessons" in our public schools.
Oh, I hadn't fully appreciated that. So public schools aren't even allowed to describe the tenets of the world's various religions, even if there's no attempt at proselytisation? That does indeed sound like a worrying gap in those children's education.
Peter
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#264484 - 06/09/2005 19:57
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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So public schools aren't even allowed to describe the tenets of the world's various religions, even if there's no attempt at proselytisation? That does indeed sound like a worrying gap in those children's education.
I don't know if it wasn't allowed but I received almost no religion education in public school. Because I was also raised in a non-religous household I entered my adult life with almost no knowledge of religion except for a few tidbits about the crusades, inquisition and the Church of England's split from the Catholics because the king wanted to get divorced or something like that. Religion was a backdrop to my history classes but the teachings, beliefs and differences among the religions wasn't taught in my public schools.
It's a terrible gap in my understanding of the world and one that I'm filling as an adult. Hence, I observe the Patrick Hentry students and start threads like this one.
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#264485 - 06/09/2005 20:15
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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There is no such thing as "religous education lessons" in our public schools.
Oh, I hadn't fully appreciated that. So public schools aren't even allowed to describe the tenets of the world's various religions, even if there's no attempt at proselytisation? That does indeed sound like a worrying gap in those children's education.
While there is no required religious studies course, and seldom an elective one, I think Jeff overstates the lack of religion in schools. Some pieces of literature, for example, need to be studied in the contexts of the religions involved, and, in my experience, are, no matter what that religion is. I don't know what Jeff's experiences are, but the notion that it's illegal to even mention religion in public school is incorrect and one that the religious right is likely to espouse, as it shows how we leftist big-government types are anti-Christian. (Of course, most of the same would have a hissy-fit if students were equally exposed to Islam. Not Jeff, I'm sure.) At the same time, I'm sure that there are a number of teachers that would rather avoid it altogether than risk getting anywhere near trouble, and there are a number of leftist nutjobs that get upset if religion is discussed at all. The real restriction is against the school leading the students in promoting religions, which was the crux of the complaint about the revised Pledge of Allegiance that students in public schools are led in.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264486 - 06/09/2005 21:16
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think Jeff overstates the lack of religion in schools.
All I know is that most of my friends who are or were teachers are VERY afraid of slipping up and getting fired. Perhaps they misunderstand what is and is not OK. I do know that in my high school, student led Christian organizations had to meet before school lest other students get confused with an organization meeting in a classroom after school and think that the school was endorsing the Christian religion. To me that is getting a little rediculouse (especially when Jewish organizations could mean whenever they wanted).
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but the notion that it's illegal to even mention religion in public school is incorrect and one that the religious right is likely to espouse, as it shows how we leftist big-government types are anti-Christian.
My understanding is that a teacher is not to talk about their personal faith with students, even if asked about it. I'll admit that I could be mistaken, but I know my friends who were teachers were under the same impression.
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Of course, most of the same would have a hissy-fit if students were equally exposed to Islam. Not Jeff, I'm sure.
Correct, this would not bug me in the least.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264487 - 06/09/2005 21:37
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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So where would such a discussion be relevant?
Discussing themes in literature, historical context, government philosophies, etc. Not so much in stuff like math and science, but even in science you get into the ID vs. Evolution stuff. There has been important Christian literature, yet we read very little of it. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was mentioned, but we didn't read it or discuss it beyond bing repressive and puritanical. Had we read "Paradise Lost" or "Crime And Punishment" there would have been definite call for looking into the Christian beliefs of the authors, but I suppose those are a bit advanced for High School studies.
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Wasn't salvation by grace St Paul's idea? According to Wikipedia, the notion of even pious adherents still being full of sin isn't really the same in Judaism and doesn't exist in Islam. Buddhists' and Hindus' samsara isn't really the same thing either. Fallenness is AFAICT a pretty Christianity-specific concept, and not shared by all Christians at that.
Well, you are correct in that Christianity has a pretty discinct view of humanity. There ARE similarities in other faiths, however, and many do not agree with the exaltation of natural man.
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I don't really see omitting any discussion of humanity's state of grace or otherwise, as being "opposite" to confirming our fallenness and sinfulness.
Ok, here's an example. We studied "A Wizard of Earthsea". Don't know how many of you have read it. The main theme of the story is that we can't divorce ourselves from our evil side, so we must join our evil and good to become whole. So here we have this philosophy that we discussed quite a bit, had to underline in the book and whatnot. Fine, it's important to learn to read for themes and understand what an author is saying. I'm all for that, and the tale wasn't that bad. But certainly we can explore some themes that disagree and say it is our responsibility to excise our dark sides and that only then can we be whole. Yet that idea was not discussed. So you emphasize a non-Christian theme (that we must learn to embrace the darkness within us) and leave out the Christian theme (that only by ridding ourselves of darkness can we be made whole). So now we have by default emphasized a non-Christian theme in literature.
I'm not saying there must be a counterbalance to every literary theme or governmental philosophy- only that it always felt to me like Christian (and other religion's) themes were avoided. Of course, those were my impressions years ago and my memory may be faulty.
My central idea is, though, that if you explore non-Christian themes and expressly leave out Christian ones, you are tacetly teaching non-Christian philosophy, however unintentionally.
But if you want real proof, how about this: When I say things like "Christianity teaches the people are inherintly wicked", I almost always get shocked looks and responses (like above in this thread). Yet that has been a core tenet of Christiantiy since the first centry (and arguably even before that). So why are people shocked to hear it now when most of the U.S. professes Christianity? Because we have competing notions of the goodness of man that are taught in our school and fed to us on television. We here it so much without counterpoint that who can blame us for believing it? Now, if you decide personally that you think man is inherintly good, then that's totally cool. But if you believe it because that's what is emphasized in our education, then education is doing exactly what everyone is accusing Christians of whanting to do- it is predisposing children a certain philosophy and not giving them the chance to decide for themselves. Now granted, I've already admitted that this theme is not from education alone, but also hollywood and TV. However, the media has not responsibility for giving a balanced presentation- our schools, OTOH, should.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264488 - 06/09/2005 21:38
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My understanding is that a teacher is not to talk about their personal faith with students, even if asked about it.
I can understand that. Teachers are there to show the students what is right or how to think intellectually, and talking about religious beliefs could imply that that is what is right or how to think philosophically.
But talking about World War II without mentioning Judaism or Hitler's beliefs would be absurd.
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I do know that in my high school, student led Christian organizations had to meet before school
Not the case in mine, though I can think of only one explicitly Christian org, the FCA. Even so, all groups meeting in school had to have a teacher sponsor, and that lends itself to implying support.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264489 - 06/09/2005 21:47
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I'm replying to this one because it is such an incomprehensible concept to me and, frankly, sounds like a miserable way to live. How can you have any sense of self worth?
Yeah, I get that a lot. Which is strange because it's been a clear teaching of Christianity since the first century.
Truth is, I know that I am worth something because God paid the ultimate price for me, despite my sinful nature. I take comfort not in the idea of my actions and rightouness makeing me a good person, but in the notion that God loves me perfectly and fully.
Bottom line, I am a very happy person who finds his worth in Jesus Christ.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264490 - 06/09/2005 21:50
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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and talking about religious beliefs could imply that that is what is right or how to think philosophically.
Right- but in some courses philosophy is inescapable. In these cases, not taking about personal beliefs implies that these philosophies can be approriately adressed with out the framework of belief. Now many might agree with this notion, but I certainly don't. I think faith is essential to philosophy.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264491 - 06/09/2005 22:12
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I think that religious faith is a particular segment of philosophy, and an aberrant one at that. Personally, I don't think that Jesus' philosophy need necessarily be tied to religion. I know that there's that whole son-of-God thing, but, it seems to me that that's more an element of Paulism than Christianity. Of course, Paulism coopted Christianity in the first century AD, and the first no longer really exists (and I think that Paul is largely responsible for what's been wrong with Christianity since the beginning), but that's another argument.
There are many secular philosophies, and there are many religious philosophies. But neither set requires adherence in order to study it. I can know about Existentialism and Deism and Taoism and Confucianism and Objectivism and Nihilism and Secular Humanism and Unitarianism and Neo-Conservatism and Naziism and Satanism without having to believe in any of it, just as I can know about Christianity and reject it just as much as I reject the others. The study of something does not mean the belief in something, but when you start talking about the personal viewpoints of a person in a position of leadership, you start promoting those viewpoints.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264492 - 06/09/2005 22:48
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think that religious faith is a particular segment of philosophy, and an aberrant one at that.
This, I think, is the crux of the issue. There are those of us who adhere to religious faith above all else, so clearly to us it is not aberrant. Thus we are frustrated when our philosophies are treated as lesser than other, more contemporary philosophies. The question is, what makes one philosophy more worthy of addressing than another? Because some poeople don't like it or find it aberrant? Who gets to decide what is OK and what isn't?
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Personally, I don't think that Jesus' philosophy need necessarily be tied to religion. I know that there's that whole son-of-God thing, but, it seems to me that that's more an element of Paulism than Christianity
I guess this just depends on how accurate you believe the Bible is. If you take the Gospels at face value Jesus claims to be the son of God before Paul writes anything. Of course, you can always assume that Paul's theology influenced the gospels to include things Jesus didn't say, but once you start down that path you can justify anything.
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Of course, Paulism coopted Christianity in the first century AD, and the first no longer really exists
This is not quite as self evident as you state, since there are many, many Bible scholars who would disagree. But, ast you say, this is another dicussion.
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There are many secular philosophies, and there are many religious philosophies. But neither set requires adherence in order to study it. I can know about Existentialism and Deism and Taoism and Confucianism and Objectivism and Nihilism and Secular Humanism and Unitarianism and Neo-Conservatism and Naziism and Satanism without having to believe in any of it, just as I can know about Christianity and reject it just as much as I reject the others. The study of something does not mean the belief in something,
Agreed to this point.
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but when you start talking about the personal viewpoints of a person in a position of leadership, you start promoting those viewpoints.
I don't sense that it is taboo for someone to espouse humanism in a position of authority- only organized religion.
I think that it is inescapable for a person's personal philosophies to spill over into their teaching. It's part of the beauty of having a flesh and blood teacher rather than a computer or book. Yet we ask those of faith to stifle this part of themselves. It's an unrealistic expectation and a hinderence to letting childrent experience the true market of ideas that are out there.
If a teacher fails to teach their subject because he or she is preaching, that is a problem. If a teacher fails a student for not believing the right thing, that is a problem. But a teacher should be as free to talk about faith as they are their favorite football team or TV show. At least, that's what I think.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264493 - 07/09/2005 00:15
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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This is going to be offensive, but I don't have a better way to say it:
Neither humanism nor football fanaticism requires one to believe in fairy tales.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264494 - 07/09/2005 00:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Nor does Christianity. We're all even. 
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~ John
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#264495 - 07/09/2005 00:23
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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If the notions of heaven, hell, life after death, and, to a lesser extent, multiplying fish and wine and raising people from the dead are not fairy tales, I don't know what are.
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Bitt Faulk
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#264496 - 07/09/2005 00:29
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: visuvius]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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the one that has worked best for them
s/best/by default/
Edited by mlord (07/09/2005 00:43)
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#264497 - 07/09/2005 00:49
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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but even in science you get into the ID vs. Evolution stuf
No, that's only an issue in the "religion" course, and only then (for now) in the USA (although apparently a Seattle based group of fanatics are actively trying to spread it to NZ, among other areas. Gahd).
In science, ID just plain doesn't exist, at least not in the naive literal translation of a few select self-indulgent scripts written by self-admitted sinners a few thousand years ago.
Gimme a break, please. God gave even me enough intelligence to see through obvious fallacies like that. No, I'm not a Christian, But I sure as hell believe in the Devil (evidence everywhere), and therefore in God (balance required, otherwise it makes zero sense).
The journalists of the time (2000 years ago) got the whole kid-of-god cult thing badly wrong, or did it for personal power or something.
Cheers
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#264499 - 07/09/2005 01:05
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
No, that's only an issue in the "religion" course, and only then (for now) in the USA (although apparently a Seattle based group of fanatics are actively trying to spread it to NZ, among other areas. Gahd).
I wasn't make the argument one way or another- only pointing out a situation where one belief is selected as superior to another belief. And it IS an issue that is being faught in science classrooms right now. Plenty of people are upset about evolution being taught in schools. In context of my post, all I was saying is that the school has to pick one side over another and some people are going to end up with their children being taught something they don't believe.
Going off topic for a moment, I'll just say for the record that (thiestic) evolution can fall within the broad spectrum of ID so it doesn't have to be a "vs"- it's just not usually argued that way because those supporting ID don't support evolution.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#264500 - 07/09/2005 01:20
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: visuvius]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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At what point do you expose the child to other religions, and, does it make sense to? Should a 10 year old be given a full explanation of the 3 major religions, and then a quick overview of the 15 bajillion other religions so that from there he/she can make an informed decision? Or is the parents right to choose to bring their child up in faith of their choice, the one that has worked best for them and which they would like to extend to their offspring.
I completely agree. I was simply pointing out that all religions attempt to protect and propogate themselves by passing down faith from parent to child. And I believe that it is every parent's right to do so.
In Christianity, the Bible says to "train a child in the way he should go, and when he old, he will not depart from it." In other words, if you have trained a child by correct principles, no matter what his state of affairs during his/her "exploration years," they will return to what is right.
And to get back on topic, I have no problem allowing a parent to choose the type of schooling that they deem necessary for their child's well-rounded education. I do believe that all schooling types - government run or otherwise - should be tested to maintain high academic standards.
But sadly, our schools are putting out idiots that think this is a sentence: YAAH I ROXORS1!1!11!! OMG IMM DA SHIZNIT!1!11 OMG LOL
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#264501 - 07/09/2005 01:21
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Perhaps, but humanism requires a belief in the innate goodness and nobility of man, which is close to a fary tale- for me at least.
I appreciate some of what you are saying vis-a-vis the questionable innate goodness, but I don't think I agree with your statement.
Religion requires faith. Humanism, I think, only requires *hope*.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#264502 - 07/09/2005 07:56
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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This is an interesting effort...as a response to the Kansas Board of Education. Mmmm - noodly appendage 
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#264503 - 07/09/2005 11:24
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I had to chime in to say that the debate over evolution might be the biggest thing that turns me off to religion. The literal interpretation of the bible has always scared me, considering the history of the book and the inaccuracies and contradictions within its own pages. I don't understand how buying into evolution would diminish God. I would think the opposite were true. Evolution would be far more impressive a feat than just throwing everything down at once, never to change.
I really should ask my old roommate, who majored in biology and religion (and who is now getting his doctorate in microbiology), to get in on an evolution debate. That would be interesting, as he has strong feelings on it.
Oh, and I'd like to say that I'm terrified of that museum of ID that has exhibits depicting humans riding dinosaurs. What would normally be quite funny is instead very scary.
_________________________
Matt
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#264504 - 07/09/2005 12:41
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Perhaps, but humanism requires a belief in the innate goodness and nobility of man
There are many philosophies that refer to themselves as humanism; not all of this have this tenet. Most of them believe that humans are the only possible solutions to their own problems. That is not necessarily an optimistic point of view.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#264505 - 07/09/2005 14:05
Re: A college that trains young Christians to be politicians
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Ok, here's an example. We studied "A Wizard of Earthsea". Don't know how many of you have read it. The main theme of the story is that we can't divorce ourselves from our evil side, so we must join our evil and good to become whole. So here we have this philosophy that we discussed quite a bit, had to underline in the book and whatnot. Fine, it's important to learn to read for themes and understand what an author is saying. I'm all for that, and the tale wasn't that bad. But certainly we can explore some themes that disagree and say it is our responsibility to excise our dark sides and that only then can we be whole. Yet that idea was not discussed. So you emphasize a non-Christian theme (that we must learn to embrace the darkness within us) and leave out the Christian theme (that only by ridding ourselves of darkness can we be made whole). So now we have by default emphasized a non-Christian theme in literature.
A Wizard Of Earthsea? I haven't read it, but, with, like, wizards and stuff? You're worried that schoolchildren will believe that the metaphysics in a book about wizards is an accurate depiction of the real world's metaphysics? I mean, yes at a certain age you need to explain to kids that Peter Pan isn't real, so the kids don't attempt flying from the top of the wardrobe, but that isn't really the age of kids we're talking about here.
Surely the whole point of fantasy literature is to depict fictional metaphysics? Does failing to discuss the elves-don't-really-exist viewpoint damage literary discussion of The Lord Of The Rings, or make the discussion dangerous in some way?
I still think you're imagining a conspiracy where none exists. Or is it the very idea that Christian metaphysics is only one of many, many different possible worldviews that worries you here?
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But if you want real proof, how about this: When I say things like "Christianity teaches the people are inherintly wicked", I almost always get shocked looks and responses (like above in this thread). Yet that has been a core tenet of Christiantiy since the first centry (and arguably even before that). So why are people shocked to hear it now when most of the U.S. professes Christianity?
I don't know what the breaks are in US Christianity, but here in the UK both Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestantism (i.e. the denominations who are very big on about inherent wickedness) are in the minority compared to liberal Protestant denominations, many of whom downplay that sort of remark by Paul.
Peter
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