Reading this board since a while now and owning an empeg since a even longer while I have to speak up - you guys are way to religious about that thing.

It's nice, it's great, there is no competition (yet) but if there would be one I would probably buy from them, they might stick closer to their promises then empeg does.

After owning both HW Version1 and 2 from the beginning I was the same excited as most of you have been in the beginning. That excitement has now really become way more relaxed, here is why:

EMPEG, once been very enthusiastic with their products and developments now have turned into Sonic Blue. I'm sure this was a very attractive move for them, looking at it from a financial point of view. But - look what happened. Basically, no major change in the software since then. And even before - I guess the guys were too buisy sorting out the contractual issues and getting their package set right.

Minor bugfixes, thats it. What is about all their promises - VR, Tuner, all the neat software features promised (EQ-to-song, more visuals, this and that, you name it) - history, over. It just will not happen.

Who is taking the bet ? I bet we will never see the tuner module for the version 2. I bet, we will never see VR for version 2. What will happen (if we all scream out loud enough) we will get offered again a discount on the new version 3 which will might come (or not) out one day. I would be happy if I loose, but I don't think that will happen.

Lets face it. From a mass production point, the number of empegs sold is - nothing. The product is way overpriced for a mass audience - and this is where a company makes money. This is how they get big. Not a few expensive units, many cheap units sold to every Dick, Tom and Harry, this is how you get maket share. So do you really think sonic blue will stick to that expensive hardware design ? I don't think so. Look, they creep up everywhere, cheap portable harddisk players with a $400 tag attached to them. One would need to ask themself how comes an empeg costs 5-8 and even more times as much ?!? And, how long to you think it takes the competition to come up with a _reliable_ car player in a low price segment ? What do you think next, would people buy. Where would the most development happen ? And, do you think sonic blue would still sell many of their empegs ?? NO! They will need to follow that trend. Linux! Who the hell needs linux on a car radio, other than geeks and people who think they need the cool-fsctor ? I can hear empeg say, yeh, it's so cool man, we have software decoder in there and all these cheapo players are using a chip - SO WHAT! People want to listen to music and not debug unix kernels. I'm very fine with a chips decoding MP3, I can't see a difference wether this is done by a chip or a software. Oh, I hear empeg again - whuuuu but you cannot upgrade to WMA which we signed up with M$ for. First I don't care, I havent asked for it (but I would appreciate you stick more to your promises than adding new features noone wants, but I'm sure M$ made up a nice package for you guys to support WMA, not to mention the free lunches and stuff) AND if I am in need for new decoding, I just buy a new unit which supports that. I gotta do that anyways, since past has shown that you don't get along for a long time with one hardware release.

What I'm saying is, it just doesn't pay off to invest much effort in e.g. developing a tuner module for this handful of empegs out there. I guess we will see a major hardware redesign which will e.g. result in an internal tuner. When empeg folks say this and that can't be done cause of this and that reason (RF, whatever) that doesn't mean other designers couldn't do it. Sonic blue is bigger and they just have more resources, developers, and I'm sure they will come up with cheaper ways for mass production, but this must result in a hardware redesign, this is most obvious, don't you think ?

Now I can hear empeg sream and yell that software is their business, not hardware. Fine, but that doesn't help me. I'm still lacking the tuner module, the VR, the software featuires announced. Since 8 month we were pomised the tuner module, the VR.

E I G H T M O N T H ! !

Even longer. This is rediculous. ANY other company would have been sued to death if they would treat their customers like that. But - here, we all look like stupid sheeps ignoring the kick in the butt. EMPEG, your all my friend. I'm really fed up with all the excuses I'm hearing from empeg. This is missing and that is missing, we can't do this. I would accept that for a month or two, but not 8!!

After all, I can still share some of the excitement (the empeg still does what it should do) but I'm on the other hand so disappointed.

IT SUCKS! Chris.

Minor bugfixes, thats it. What is about all their promises - VR, Tuner, all the neat software features promised (EQ-to-song, more visuals, this and that, you name it) - history, over. It just will not happen.

They always told some good reasons for not being able to ship a tuner-module.
Restructuring takes some time, too - don't forget about that. And I can live without EQ-to-song - I don't even really use the current EQ.

VR is a thing I'm with you. It's been promised for a very long time and nothing seems to happen here. (rob, hugo?)


TeeMcBee
Got my Mk2! # 080000143

As always, I'll answer this from my personal perspective. I'm sure you would prefer I was frank and honest than feed you some marketing line..

But - look what happened. Basically, no major change in the software since then.

Actually there have been so many changes we have not been able to release them bit-by-bit as we did with previous beta releases. Emplode has been re-written from scratch, the protocol has been updated, wendy filters written, smart shuffle written, tune stats implemented, new remote control support, completely new CODEC's including WMA, emplode searching from queries or UI, major enhancements to existing visuals and dozens of new ones, and a lot more stuff I've forgotten.

To accommodate such far reaching changes - especially the CODEC and protocol changes - we had to split the source tree. Therefore you can't get ANY of the new stuff until it's ALL ready.

A dozen alpha-testers (all of them active on this BBS) will be getting 1.1 within the next few days. When they're happy that we've found all the bugs, everyone gets it. Most of the features apply equally to Mk.1 and Mk.2 players. There will be no charge for the upgrade, even though we have an associated cost with the new CODEC's.

At least a dozen people on here were at Amersfoort in October, and saw many of these new features for themselves. We will also be at the California meet, showing an almost-public release. With a bit of luck we'll be able to show a tuner as well.

I guess the guys were too buisy sorting out the contractual issues and getting their package set right.

We have commercial people and lawyers for that sort of thing. Of our eight full time in-house programmers, only one was involved in acquisition negotiations.

I bet we will never see the tuner module for the version 2

Here's the AM/FM prototype that we built in October:



..and here's the schematic for the production prototype:



I'd take a picture of the unit itself but it's in Germany. It'll be sent to our manufacturing contractor in about a week, and then it's their job to them to get some built as soon as possible.

I'm sorry the tuner has taken so long, not least because I want to listen to the radio when I'm driving!

2. I bet, we will never see VR for version 2

Now that I have recently become responsible for managing software development at empeg, I will chase up the developers of this software (it's not in-house) and obtain some more realistic targets than their initial dates. We'll get 1.1 behind us first, though.

we will get offered again a discount on the new version 3 which will might come (or not) out one day

I hope there will be a Mk.3 in the future (and Mk.4, 5 and 6 for that matter), but currently we are set up to manufacture the Mk.2 in volume. All of our products build from a common code base (even the Receiver runs some car player code) and so previous platforms automatically get new features so long as they have the hardware to utilise it.

Linux! Who the hell needs linux on a car radio, other than geeks and people who think they need the cool-fsctor

You don't seem to realise that Linux isn't on there for your benefit - sure that's a nice side-effect - but it's there for OUR benefit. Every product we're developing for SONICblue to date (there are a number of them) runs Linux. Even the Receiver with 4Mb of RAM, 74Mhz processor and $299 price tag runs Linux. If you don't know why that's an advantage for us then fine - as a consumer why should you know, and why should you care?

I'm very fine with a chips decoding MP3, I can't see a difference wether this is done by a chip or a software

You're very short-sighted then. Even good portable players have software CODEC's now - and consumers are right to demand this. Why would we use a hardware decoder when an inexpensive ARM CPU has plenty of power to do it in software? You even get a CODEC for free with the Cirrus ARM.

I'm sure M$ made up a nice package for you guys to support WMA, not to mention the free lunches and stuff

I'm not sure what planet you're on, but Microsoft have never bought me lunch and we PAY THEM to use WMA. Why do we do so? Because soon a LOT of music will be retailed online and a large proportion of that will be in WMA format. The other reason (less applicable to the car player perhaps) is that low bitrate WMA's sound a LOT better than the equivalent MP3 versions. Microsoft may not be flavour of the month for many of our clients, but WMA isn't a bad format by any standards.

What I'm saying is, it just doesn't pay off to invest much effort in e.g. developing a tuner module for this handful of empegs out there

1) Soon there will be several thousand Mk.2's and I don't want those people after our blood!
2) The effort isn't all that great - the delays have been down to other factors. We've had a working AM/FM tuner since October.

I guess we will see a major hardware redesign which will e.g. result in an internal tuner

Umm.. you do know that we moved AWAY from an internal tuner (Mk.1) don't you? You can't do AM inside the case, and you can't upgrade to new formats. Oh, did I mention that our tuner bus is compatible with XM receiver protocols?

When empeg folks say this and that can't be done cause of this and that reason (RF, whatever) that doesn't mean other designers couldn't do it

Ah, you have been listening! But missing the point totally. Check out the inventory for the Clarion AutoPC sometime (you can view it at Crutchfield's online catalogue). Pay particular attention to the EXTERNAL components that come with the package. I guess Clarion must be as incompetent as us.

ANY other company would have been sued to death if they would treat their customers like that. But - here, we all look like stupid sheeps ignoring the kick in the butt

Could it possibly be that the majority of our customers recognise that this happens sometimes - even with much larger companies than empeg - but that the other features of the product have made the inconvenience tolerable? Yes, it's a lousy situation, which I'm sick of and embarrassed about. That doesn't mean we've lied to you, and it doesn't mean that our enthusiastic clients are sheep (stupid or otherwise).

One thing that can be said for most owners on this BBS is that they put their name behind their comments; they don't create a new account from which to post a flame.

Rob

Now that is an answer!
I love to see the Empeg folks defend their position with cold, hard facts, plus drop a few surprises in too!

Way to go Rob, I am sure everyone else here feels the same way you do, but would have been unable to generate such a scathing response!

Oh, glad to see v1.1 is starting to get tested. Thanks!

When I meet you, I will shake your hand!
Cheers

Smoker_Man
#080000449 MkII - 36Gb Blue

Preach it, brotha!!

DiGNAN

im with you man. thats teh one big critism i have of this, its sounds like a religon. and teh other critism i have is also E I G H T M O N T H is way to long to half to wait 4 a tunr.

Rex

I'm just trying to work out if this is irony or not..

Rob

I was going to comment on each of the grammatical, structural, typographical and other stupid mistakes in your mail, but I counted to fifty before I decided not to bother wasting the energy.

I was going to answer your points with reasoned and considered arguments, but I read several of your blinkered, incorrect and pompous comments and decided that given the cerebral energy you have demonstrably failed to expend on the matter my efforts would be completely wasted.

I was going to.... Nah. I can't be bothered.

Nick.

PS I love the signature - "It sucks Chris". What does, and did we really want to know this?

--
18Gb blue (now AR red) - s/n 080000299 (original queue position 8724)

Mr. critism,

So I guess you won't be coming to the Northern California empeg meeting???

;-)

- Jon

PS I love the signature - "It sucks Chris". What does, and did we really want to know this?

I would guess that anyone called Chris may have a vested interest.

Rob

It's spelled criticism - at least get the the spelling right even if the rest of your post is incorrect. Maybe part of the reason the tuner is late is that we begged for a FM/AM tuner rather than just an FM only one. Thanks for the info Rob.

Sean

I want to play!

I guess we'll never see Rob's dirty laundry!
I guess we'll never see Hugo first thing in the the morning!
I guess we'll never see the secret project empeg is working on!

Rob? care to post some pictures again?

-D


---
reg. #10798 - blue 40gig MK2 #764

No, I think he was serious...

Hey, Rob! You've been promoted!

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

It does also imply that anyone posting in the near future with a different ID and the name "Chris" is sure going to come under some grammatical scrutiny!

Tell me, what is it about tuners that raises such religious fervour? I mean, since I figured out how to use it and fixed the antenna impedance mismatch, I have only used it a few times - mainly 'cos I can choose my own music on the player.

I am developing a theory that the word "tuner" on this BBS is in fact invisible (or at least the same colour as the background) when posted by any member of the empeg team. Hence, all postings regarding the reasons for the delay have disappeared and have never been read by anyone on this board. This means that every newbie on this board immediately posts (word for word) "When is the tuner module ready?" or "Is there any progress on the tuner module?", as if this was still the launch day of the Mk 2 (surely somebody has carried out a statistical analysis of the frequency of repetition of this request on the board and can post a graphic reflecting some important trend?).

In fact, that statement implies that there must be a discontinuity in the time continuum when you log on to this board, an effect to which I can regularly attest ("Hell, it's 3 AM again!"). This means that tommorrow is, in fact yesterday, and the Mk1 has only just been launched, so you already have the tuner in your head unit. Everybody Happy Now?

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

My head hurts. Mommy, make the bad man stop.

___________
Tony Fabris

You wouldn't want to see either of the first two, and the third... is so secret not even we know about it!

Rob

So, when's the tuner going to be ready?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bill B.
Mk.2 SN 080000183 - 38 GB / Green

I was going to comment on the grammar and spelling and such, but I guess I was being nice in giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he was from a non English-speaking nation. Oh well.

I guess that this guy shows that some of the owners still don't get it.

Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, etc...

DiGNAN

Rob,

As always, thanks for your deliberate response. I think perhaps that "Chris" had one too many bottles of Angst Lager. Sounded like every dark, anxious thought any owner might ever have rolled up into one big ball. I suppose if you hang out in your basement reading a stack of books about how the Bavarian Iluminati manipulated Woodrow Wilson through Colonel House, this is the result.

Interesting side note about XM. I looked at their Web site. I couldn't tell how they enforce their license/fees for customers. If I wanted XM in car, home and boat, would I need to pay monthly fees for 3 adapters? I keep thinking about getting DMX for this kind of service, but don't want to pay for the rest of the cable service. Plus, portable it ain't!

In the tuner obsession department, can you perhaps rattle off the dimensions of the production unit, the length of the loom attachment, and how the antenna attaches (a plug on one surface?, another cable/tail?). I am dying to finish up the final installation panel (in a pretty cramped space) on my boat but I am reluctant to make final cuts into that spendy teak without having all placement stuff figured out (right now, the Empeg sled is in an ugly plywood temporary panel with my old Kenwood hanging out the side to provide FM to the Empeg. If I couldn't listen to Car Talk while doing boat work, Saturdays just wouldn't be the same. ).

Thanks,

Jim

If I couldn't listen to Car Talk while doing boat work, Saturdays just wouldn't be the same. ).

I have to agree with you there: Car Talk is probably the only compelling reason I'd need a tuner in my car at all.

Rob or Hugo, have you ever heard Car Talk?

___________
Tony Fabris

Nope, never heard of car talk.

As for the dimensions, etc - I'll give them to you when I have them. The antenna connector is a euro-style (takes the short plugs, like blaupunkt radios - not the long ones. Converters are very easy to find) and it's mounted on the box itself.

Hugo

Yes the original post was a bit "angst-ridden", but I think that some valid concerns were brought up and that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Besides, it allows empeg to explain things a bit that they might not otherwise think are worth talking about.

About XM customer licensing.... I imagine it would be like DirecTV (since DirecTV's parent company Hughes Network Systems has invested heavily into XM Radio). For example, if you pay full price for one subsciption (for the TV in the living room) you can activate additional TV's for $5 a month in the same house.

12gig Mk. II BLUE
Detroit, MI USA
www.PfeifferBeer.com

See http://cartalk.cars.com/Radio/ for more info on this...

Tell me, what is it about tuners that raises such religious fervour? I mean, since I figured out how to use it and fixed the antenna impedance mismatch, I have only used it a few times - mainly 'cos I can choose my own music on the player.

Well, I guess its just an assumed thing that a car stereo head unit can do. A lot of people use it for traffic reports on the morning commute, or listen to morning shows (Don and Mike rule!).. and occasionally even I don't feel like playing DJ for myself, so I'd rather just let someone off DC101 do it.

I can't count the number of times I've shown my empeg to someone and they're like "Wait... you paid a grand for a stereo and it doesn't have FM???". (Second only to the no-CD-player comment, but I disregard those. ;)

Anyway, I wouldn't say we've gotten too religious on this BBS... we all just really love (empegisgod) our empegs!

(O|||||O)

SE_Sport_Driver wrote:
> Yes the original post was a bit "angst-ridden", but I think that some
> valid concerns were brought up and that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> Besides, it allows empeg to explain things a bit that they might not otherwise
> think are worth talking about.

I agree with you re: some valid concerns and that one result is that it can lead to more detailed (welcome) explanations. Valid concerns? Well, who among us hasn't (after an ill-advised decision to nab that last slice of pepperoni) awoken in a cold sweat at 2 A.M. asking "What will the SONICBlue acquisition mean?" or "Is it possible that the Mk2 tuner could get deep-sixed??". Thankfully, for me anyway, I then remember that Hugo, Rob and crew are not across the lake in Redmond swilling some expensive single-malt scotch, but are in fact still hard at work on the stuff we care about. I fall back asleep.

I just think that some of his post/rant -- wining and dining with MS, getting distracted by acquisition -- were way over the top and without any substantive basis. He should vent his feelings more regularly rather than let them build up like this!

Part of my interest in the XM radio stuff is: could I leave room in the boat panel and in the home "sled box" I'm building to plug in an XM module -- move it around. If it's designed for car use I assume the antenna and module will be small. Another "I wonder...": I saw somewhere where someone had hacked an HTML parser that piped DMX playlist/song data to a PC. Wonder how XM will present song info...

Car Talk, Hugo? Well, it's a long running call-in show where two pun-filled brothers insult their callers in a very endearing fashion while occasionally answering a question about cars. Years ago it was a local-only show on WBUR when the brothers ran a do-it-yourself garage in Cambridge, Mass. (in the pre-computer automotive era) and most of the calls were from folks actually working on their cars and the show was downright fascinating. The garage is no longer DIY, the show now sometimes seems like an automotive marriage counselor ("My husband wants to buy a Suburban, but I want a New Beetle..."), and some folks find the brothers annoying (an old friend of mine went to high school with them in Cambridge and says they are like that *all the time*), but I still find it worthwhile.

The radio landscape in the U.S. is pretty bleak, but I still listen to a fair amount. The local alter-alternative station, KCMU, occasionally helps me find a bit of new music, and NPR, Car Talk, etc. are good background while doing boat work. Now, if KUOW would bring back Afro-Pop Worldwide (It provided the perfect soundtrack for varnishing on a sunny day. Sniff...)

Jim
90 GB Mk III Fuchsia

In describing Car Talk for Hugo, you neglected to mention how completely cool and funny the show is. Clearly, it's the best thing on U.S. radio today, and it's the only reason I want a tuner attached to the Mark2.

Hugo and Rob, if you do manage to make it over here in March, see if you can have somebody help you tune in Car Talk on Saturday morning before the meet. It's syndicated nationwide on several National Public Radio stations, and you should be able to catch an episode at 10am Pacific time on at least a couple of Bay Area stations. It's worth going out of your way to hear it.

___________
Tony Fabris

Dude!! Now I really say welcome to the area! Allready listening to Don and Mike and DC101! Those exact things are all I listen to on radio! It would be cool to hear that on the empeg.

Damn I wish I could get Don and Mike down in Williamsburg. It's not carried on any stations down here as far as I know. DC101 used to stream their broadcast over their website which was AWESOME, but it doesn't work anymore...suck.

Oh well. And um...yeah...a tuner would be nice.

Any updates on that Rob?

DiGNAN

Are you in college DigNAN17? Are you attending william and mary? Williamsburg is cool except for all the tourons that go through there.

Sean

Tony,

You're right. I should have said "cool and funny". It still is. I just miss the old days when half of a show might be consumed by a single problem - some wandering meditation on Volvo fuel injection woes or whatever. Best thing on U.S. radio today? You may well be right. I'm not sure this says good things about U.S. radio! If it's the *only* reason you want a tuner, your local dial must be even worse than mine!

If Hugo and Rob can't tune in while in U.S., they can listen to past Car Talk shows from the URL posted here.

NPR ran a short news feature this week about a group of college students in the UK who tune in religiously from the common room in their dormitory to watch the proceedings of some city council in Nebraska over the Internet -- their daily soap opera. Assuming this is what passes for General Hospital in the UK, I hesitate to predict what Rob and Hugo will make of Car Talk!

Jim

Yeah, I'm in Williamsburg, going to W&M. And I know all to well what you mean about the tourists. We have a particular intersection, right in the middle of the old part of the city (where the Colonial stuff ends and the college begins), that we call "confusion corner". nobody understands how it works! ARGH!

Anyway, glad you like the area. I love it, it's beautiful almost all the time (the past 2 days have been clear blue skies at about 65 degrees - pretty good for February).

DiGNAN

Do you happen to know Dr. Johnson?

hmm, I'm guesssing you know the college. No, don't know of him.

DiGNAN

Jim!

You forgot the URL!

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

You forgot the URL!

He didn't forget, he just was referring to a URL made available earlier in the thread. Here it is again...

http://cartalk.cars.com/Radio/

___________
Tony Fabris

Just go to cartalk.cars.com and click on "Our Lousy Radio Show" (sorry, it was in an earlier post).

Jim

Reading the 1st post, i did agree with a few points (as any demanding consumer would). Cant say i realy cared too much about it much tho. Only thing that i care about is when v1.1 was coming, and if you were even bothering to do anything on it. I thought you must be busy with the takeover etc, which is fair enough.

Fortunately, all the questions have been answered anyway. I think you should make it the "whe wont empeg wash my dishes FAQ" to explain every possible winge there is ;)

I agree.

But you really do have to remember that v1.1 is like whole new software. As far as I know, they've never made this many changes to the software at one release (I haven't been around long enough). I can't believe this guy is making the deal out of it that he is. empeg made no specific promises about software releases. It's not like they said they'd be coming out with a new feature for download every 4-5 days. And the fact that they'll be coming out with new software at ALL is damn great. Hell, Microsoft releases updates to windoze every 2 years or so. And even with that, there's nothing in them (Win98 -> ME).

I think criticism should go switch his car stereo back and wait for upgrades to that one.

DiGNAN

Speaking as an owner of both a Mk1 & Mk2 empeg, and having been on the mailing list for what must be approaching two and a half years, I am perfectly happy with the way the company has treated me, both in terms of the hardware and the software. Sure I'd like the VR & tuner yesterday, but I work as a computer programmer, so I suppose I have first hand experience of deadlines and how they slip... I have the Mk1 in the car and am waiting for the tuner before replacing it with the Mk2, purely from the point of view of the installation (BMW dashes are notoriously difficult to get behind, and I don't want to do it more often than necessary - or to be more precise, I don't want to have to PAY someone to do it more than necessary!!)

I'm waiting for v1.1 of the software too, but again, I have no complaints (aside from not being on the alpha testers list ) and I am more than happy that I have been able to in some way influence the features added to previous releases through this BBS.

From Rob's posts in the past, it seems clear that the SonicBlue deal will mean I get my tuner sooner than if the deal hadn't taken place, so again, I am happy.... impatient, but happy

Most of the people I work with treat me as if I'm mad for buying TWO in car MP3 players, when I only have one car... but it's pretty clear that they are impressed with the thing, even though I think they are a long way short of 'getting it'

(The tuner is handy for listening to the news first thing in the morning, just so I keep marginally in touch with the 'real world' - for what it's worth!!)


Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...

I'm so sorry folks.... I was the one posting that stuff in the first place but I wasn't really to make up that bad stink. I though you would get the point straight away, but ... noone did. So now I feel very sorry.

This was a word game. I have changed my Username to 'Critism' (should have been spelled 'criticism', sorry, but this is not my mothers language) and then I have said 'Reading this board since a while now and owning an empeg since a even longer while I have to speak up' = means, the criticism has to speak up. Everything followed was in sarcastic mode which I thought the beginning of that article made clear - But you guys got it completely different, serious - sorry. Also that post should have been ended with 'Christ' not Chis. That was cause the subject was 'religious'. Hmm.

I mean, there was a good portion meant serious in that post, and I had a good reason for posting that. I was on a trip to Holland/Amsterdam to meet with some friends to do the stuff you do in Amsterdam... I was stuck in a jam for hours since I didn't had that TUNER which could have warned me and I missed the calls from my firends since the xxxxxx phone-mute still doesn't work for me. (Oh, I have missed that one in my first mail... I found empegs answer to my first complain about that pretty embaressing - one said they couldn't check since they had no hand-free...no, at that time I didn't found that very funny...).

SO in the end I missed my friends and lots of fun and I was pretty p****ed the next morning. Mainly about the missing tuner.

Well, all I can say is forgive me, it wasn't meant that harsh. I still like the empeg a lot and it's still in my car. And I did like the 'rob' reply with all the pictures (even thought I don't belive the M$ part...maybe no lunch, but please please tell me they gave you something in return - besides wma! :-)

Oh, and did tell me one other thing - reading some replies, some guys for sure are taking the empeg WAY to religious.

So I promise no more word games noone exept me understands. :-/

J.

J,

if you really meant your post to be interpreted other than literally, I missed that totally. OK, some answers did sound a bit overzealous, but I think that most of people answering showed quite realistic attitude toward the situation.

Your MS comments were insulting. What, you supposed Evil Empire bribed (wining and dining is a bribe) some guys from empeg to smuggle WMA into software past Hugo? Or that Hugo decided that nice lunch was a good reason to pay his own money (remember, Hugo founded the company) to MS for presumably unneccesary feature? Nonsense. MS does not pay, it expects the whole world to be paying them. I don't plan to use WMA in forseeable future, but find Rob's reasoning for including it (and so aiding the Bad Guys) convincing.

Now, if some high-placed SonicBlue salaried guy were all of a sudden to start insisting on switching from Linux to WinCE on their entire product line, that would be a reason for doubt...

Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green

Well, drive over to Amersfoort and stop in so I can fix your phone mute. I bet it just needs a pull-down resistor...

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

I just love that the topic of Microsoft being the Evil Empire and purposely screwing customers can appear in just any forum on the internet. All these comments about MS are just down right wrong. I'm been a software engineer for MS for the past 5 years (in the Macintosh group, even I have issues with Windows). I bet anyone, if you could hang out in our offices for a week, you would change all your views about MS. Our office is filled with thousands of hard working techno geeks whose passions are creating great software and making customers happy. Do you think we would work 60-80 hours a week slaving in front of a computer to create a piece of crap software product? I don't think so. When we release a new version of our software, we begin crawling the internet for every review and set of customer comments we can find. Everything is compiled and forwarded to everyone on the team and the managers up the chain to Steve and Bill. We then have meeting after meeting of what we can do to improve the software. Never is there a meeting of how we can screw the customer, or plant some little program that sends all their email to us, or anything else people imagine Microsoft does. People talk about Microsoft as being a money hungry big corporation that is out to rob the pockets of computer users. HELLO!! What company doesn't want money? How can they survive without it? Take for example, the new Window ME. MS spent billions of dollars developing it. Now how many copies do you think we need to sell at $50 a pop in order to make back the $4 billion we spent to make it? Or how about my team. I work on Outlook Express for the Mac. Say we have about 30 people on our team. With salary, stock, bonus and benefits, MS probably shells out an average of $100K per person. That's $3 million a year. Throw in marketing and customer research and the number is probably around $5 million. Now how much do we make on the software? NOTHING! It's FREE!

That's it.. I'm getting off my Soapbox and shutting up. Just please believe me, Microsoft is not the enemy. Every time you feel like making a nasty comment about MS and have no data to backup your claim, remember your putting down thousands of hard working employees who dedicate their lives to making great software for Microsoft. Sure we make mistakes too, nothing is perfect.

Rob

I'd agree with your argument if I hadn't wasted months of my time (as a programmer) trying to find out why our software wasn't working only to discover that installing IE3 (for example) changed an event interface to call it three times instead of twice...
Look at any programming forum to find problems caused by sneak system file upgrades and api changes from installing MS software, and perhaps you'll feel sorry for the several million software developers outside of MS who spend most of their time working round bugs/changes in the different versions of windows.

You're lucky you work in the Mac division...

Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 12 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)

Take for example, the new Window ME

I'm sorry if you worked on it, but I (as an end-user) saw almost absolutely no difference between WinME and Win98. If I was unable to see these slight differences, I'm sorry, but they sure weren't evident to me. It looked a little "smoother" and things moved differently and a few other things, but for me, I stuck to Win98 and didn't have to spend $50 to upgrade something I was happy with.

Oh well, that's enough from me.

DiGNAN

That's $3 million a year. Throw in marketing and customer research and the number is probably around $5 million. Now how much do we make on the software? NOTHING! It's FREE!

So Microsoft spends 5mill a year on a product that no one in the Macintosh community wanted, needed, or would use if Apple wasn't bundling it with the OS. What's your point?

I am sorry, that is an obvious flame and I would not normally post such a thing to this board, but I just don't follow your logic. Eudora light, Netscape Email, Claris Emailer where all vastly better (and also free) products that Microsoft is trying to whipe out with OE. You said yourself, that MS makes no money from OE for the Mac, so why make it when there are already half a dozen perfectly good alternatives? Market share and market domination.

I have nothing against the programmers at Microsoft. They work hard to release products and do it for a job.

But I highly dislike the marketing, legal, and administration departments. They are the ones behind many of the things I dislike Microsoft for. Take for example a large computer company I used to work for, Gateway. They were selling computers with Windows, and one day decided to also include Netscape on the desktop. Microsoft didn't like this, and tried to strongarm Gateway into removing it. Ted Waitt has been quoted as saying "Bill Gates hates my guts". And Gateway suffers from this act of loading software on their own computers by paying the highest prices in the OEM industry for Windows, and other MS products.

And marketing was behind the mass confusion with Windows 2000 and ME. NT 5 was renamed to 2000 because it was going to be seen as the upgrade to 98. But something happened along the development path, and it was realised 2000 wasn't quite "consumer oriented". So 2000 was aimed at the corporate enviornment, just like NT 4, and consumers were told to wait for Windows 98, third edition, (aka ME). I've had to explain this so many times to people.

Read through the findings of fact that was released from the recent legal battle against MS. It may prove quite enlightning, and show the many illegal mistakes of your company's managment and other departments.

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So Microsoft spends 5mill a year on a product that no one in the Macintosh community wanted, needed, or would use if Apple wasn't bundling it with the OS. What's your point?
==========

Oh that's right, you know all about the market share and Mac community. No one would use OE if it wasn't bundled with the OS? That's funny, we have had over a million downloads of OE from the Microsoft web site, and we have won Best Of Show and Best Internet Client from MacWorld. The reviews consistently review us higher than Eudora, NS and Emailer. OE on the Mac has been such a hit that the Windows version was modeled after it. Go ahead, compare the features of all the email clients out there and feel free to choose which ever one you like best. I never told you had to use OE and either did Microsoft or Apple. What's wrong with shipping the product with the OS? You get your new mac, turn it on, and you already have the number one rated email client available to you (in my opinion). You also get NS Communicator which also is bundled with the OS, it's your choice.

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I have nothing against the programmers at Microsoft. They work hard to release products and do it for a job.
==========
Thanks.. I appreciate it.

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But I highly dislike the marketing, legal, and administration departments.
=========
I'm with you. I agree that Microsoft has done some shady deals. However, that's business. It's America, a free country. Did we harm consumers? I don't think so..

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But something happened along the development path, and it was realized 2000 wasn't quite "consumer oriented".
==========
Oh you are so very wrong. Windows 2000 (which was NT 5) was NEVER was created for "consumer" use. The next Windows (code name Whistler) is the consumer version of Windows 2000. It is now in beta testing and when you finally get it on your computer, I bet you are going to like it. And Window ME was NEVER sold as a "must upgrade" or an entirely new version. It was a recommended upgrade for home users and added features for easier home networking and internet use. The new features and better stability were by far worth the $50 upgrade cost. If Empeg was going to charge $100 for the 1.1 upgrade, I bet you would have no problem paying for that.

==========
Read through the findings of fact that was released from the recent legal battle against MS. It may prove quite enlightening, and show the many illegal mistakes of your company's management and other departments.
=============
Have you actually read the complete findings of fact? How about the complete findings of law? Did you know those 2 documents were supposed to be the same document? However, since both of them had horrible contradictory statements, that the judge decided to split them in 2 and release them 2 weeks apart. Give me a break. Judge Jackson is so biased against Microsoft it's not enough a fair trial. Now the appeals court is looking specifically into Judge Jackson (an unheard of act by the appeals court) and my guess is the government's case is going to worth nothing. Do you think they will break Microsoft up? I'll bet you my Empeg they don't.

Please everyone.. My post about Microsoft was not a flame towards anyone. It was a defense against people putting down the company I have devoted my life to when all they are doing is repeating rumors and hate statements that they read or hear in the media. The last thing I wanted was to get into this Empeg forum and start reading that people think Microsoft has ANYTHING to do with Empeg. Paying Empeg to use WMA and setting them up with Free lunches and stuff.. GIVE ME A BREAK!

This is my last post about this topic. Feel free to flame me or MS as much as you want. I just recommend you get your facts straight first because you can look like a idiot when you state completely untrue statements that you really know nothing about.

For those that want to continue talking about this. I'll be at the Northern California meeting in March. You should come on over and tell me exactly what you think, and maybe you can even convince me that I am wrong.

Rob

ok, all those images there may proof that there's really been done some work on the tuner...
But! after being stuck in several traffic jams since I got my Mk.II :( I just can't decide wether I still should sit there, waiting for something that right now looks to me as probable as a bug free MS windows, or should I just try to sell off my Mk.II and get some old fashioned FM Cassette head unit...
Not to mention the phone bill for my cellular's traffic service, and the loss of income (sitting in my car for 1 1/2h does not pay me $$...)

so, here's the ObQuestion:

When will the tuner be available?

Sorry, I'm not going to repeat myself yet again.

Rob

I'm been a software engineer for MS for the past 5 years ...

That was a paid advertisement by Microsoft Corporation.


No seriously, microsoft do pay to have fake 'grass roots' supporters. This sounds like one to me. Are you sure you are a real person CruzThs?

> since the xxxxxx phone-mute still doesn't work for me

Works fine for everyone else - I know many owners use this feature, because we get support enquiries about how to set it up. If your hands free kit switches between 0V and 12V then it's easy to get working - just configure the player from emplode to know which state is active mute. If the kit switches between 0V and open circuit, you need to add a 10K resistor between the mute line and 12V, then configure the player to mute on 0V. Our support people know this so I don't know why you weren't told as much.

> one said they couldn't check since they had no hand-free

Nobody here has a car kit because we tend to change mobile phone models every few months. In any case we don't need a car kit to test something as trivial as phone mute - a piece of wire is all thats needed! This is the first time I've heard of anyone being unable to get it working (assuming you've tried what I said above).

> even thought I don't belive the M$ part...maybe no lunch, but please please tell me they gave you
> something in return

Believe what you want, but WMA is Microsoft's product which they licence. The pricing is very competitive against MP3, but they're not giving it away. You seem to think we're supporting WMA because Microsoft have talked us into it which I find a little odd - we're supporting it to deliver on our promise of CODEC upgradability.

Rob

Sorry, my computer is screwing up.

DiGNAN

Edited by DiGNAN17 on 12/02/01 05:22 PM.

In reply to:

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==========
But I highly dislike the marketing, legal, and administration departments.
=========
I'm with you. I agree that Microsoft has done some shady deals. However, that's business. It's America, a free country. Did we harm consumers? I don't think so..

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WHAT? Yes MS did hurt consumers.

Put aside the stupid treatment of Gateway, but forcing consumers to use IE rather than allow free competition between NS and IE was hurting the consumer directly.

That's called abusing a monopoly - someone should take MS to court... oh they did - wasn't it most of the US?.

Enough - this is a troll.

Paul.

Paul Haigh, Reg. 4120
(mk1) 6GB, Blue, 00254
(mk2) 12GB, Red, 00357

I think this post has just proven the theorem I posted here.

One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

>> you need to add a 10K resistor between the mute line and 12V

Can someone explain how a resistor gets installed? Does it just get installed inline?

I'm just trying to work out if there's any significance in the fact that Rex_Oah's name spelt backwards is (almost) HOAXER.

Or maybe I've been looking for the hidden cameras too long.

Paul

Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.

>> you need to add a 10K resistor between the mute line and 12V
> Can someone explain how a resistor gets installed? Does it just get installed inline?

Err, just do exactly what I said Install it between the mute line and 12V (which you can conveniently get from one of the power lines). Take care to insulate the exposed leads of the resistor to prevent shorting to other lines or bodywork.

Rob

In reply to:

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Enough - this is a troll.

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Hey, people, give the guy a break! It is quite understandable that a hard-working programmer is quite biased towards his company, if it treats him half decently. On the other hand, please do share your MS horror stories with him at the meet!

Cheers!


Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green