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#258312 - 15/06/2005 22:45 time for a new laptop?
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
My HP Omnibook 510 (from the now defunct HP laptop division that was dropped when they merged with Compaq) has given me good service, but the built-in 802.11b wireless basically sucks. It's got short range and the lame driver (which shows no signs of being updated) has a habit of wedging my machine. That and I recently dropped it, causing an ugly but cosmetic-only crack in a corner. Time for something new.

Critical features I have to have:
- 3 pounds or maybe less (sadly, no Apple products fit the bill)
- 3 year comprehensive warranty (to fix it after I abuse it)
- normal pitched keyboard (knocks out many of the cool Japanese models)
- 1GB of RAM
- CompactFlash (either native or via PCMCIA adapter) for my digital camera
- 802.11b/g
- USB 2.0, maybe firewire, definitely Ethernet and modem
- VGA out (for PowerPoint presentations)

Bonus points for bigger hard drives or longer battery life. I don't need any kind of CD/DVD support.

Poking around, the Dell Lattitude X1 comes pretty close. $2231 gets me 1.2GB of RAM and a 60GB disk (is anything larger available that's 8mm thick?). It's got a CF slot. That includes three years of CompleteCare warranty coverage. Could well do the job.

An IBM/Lenovo X41 tablet PC is also an intriguing option. You get a faster CPU and the whole tablet thing, which I guess could be cool for Photoshop use, but it's a little heavier and you end up spending a little more money ($2486) for the same sort of warranty. Plus, you only get a 40GB disk. The fingerprint reader seems like a gimmic.

Edit: you can get a 60GB disk, but only from a reseller. The IBM/Lenovo web site only sells the 40GB model. CDW.com, for one, has some 17 different variants to choose from, but no custom configurator, and no way to know what the specific features are for many of these variants. Very frustrating.

Toshiba has the Portege M200 (tablet) and R200 (notebook) computers. The tablets are 4.4+ pounds, so they're out of the running. The notebooks are much lighter (2.7 or 2.8 pounds), have a magnesium case, and a 60GB disk. To get a configuration similar to the Dell, including warranty, you end up paying $2516, but you get a free Epson Stylus C86 printer and a free Netgear wireless DSL router (after mail-in rebate). I could probably get some use out of the printer, but the router doesn't do much for me.

The Sony Vaio T-Series has a smaller 10.6" screen, although it's apparently very bright. You get integrated EDGE (i.e., high-speed GSM data) and a MemoryStick slot. Not very interesting to me. You get a built-in CD or DVD burner, depending on the model. Don't need it. It's much more expensive than the competition. Probably not the right laptop for me.

HP, so far as I can tell, doesn't offer a single laptop anywhere near three pounds. They'll sell you a ~3 pound tablet PC, but to get it near my specs, it becomes far too expensive.

So, based on what I've seen so far, the competition seems to be between the Dell X1 and the IBM/Lenovo X41.

Meta-observation: each of these vendor web sites is just awful. It's quite difficult to answer even basic questions like "is there a PCMCIA slot?"

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#258313 - 15/06/2005 23:34 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14472
Loc: Canada
Well the 4lb limit knocks my (superb!) Dell Inspiron 9300 out of the running. But for anyone else wanting a (relatively) cheap 1920x1200 display in a Linux compatible (BIG) 8lb notebook..

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#258314 - 15/06/2005 23:44 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Too bad you need something smaller/lighter. Because I've yet to see or hear of any notebook that comes close to an Apple for look, feel and usability. The sub-notebook is definitely a market where Apple has missed out on a great opportunity.

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#258315 - 16/06/2005 08:51 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
MarkH
member

Registered: 06/04/2000
Posts: 158
I had a similar kind of spec sheet last year, with the extra that I did want a DVD player. I couldn't find anything, and decided eventually to compromise on the keyboard. Got a Fujitsu P7010. Love it, thoroughly recommended.

I decided in the end to give up on the keyboard because that was the thing that seemed to be the overall size determinant - seems that the manufacturers work it as "ok, if we're going on a full size keyboard, that gives us lots of empty space in the chassis, so we might as well shove it full of stuff".

My reasoning was that if I am really going to be doing a lot of typing in a fixed place I can plug in an external keyboard and mouse for $40 or less.

Regards

Mark

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#258316 - 16/06/2005 13:34 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I haven't seen an X41, but I did play with an X40 for a few hours the other day (which I believe is very similar apart from the rotating screen). I am a bit of a Dell fan, but I was impressed by just how much better built the IBM was than my current Dell.
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#258317 - 16/06/2005 14:30 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: andy]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 768
Loc: Washington, DC metro
We have fleet of about 75 Thinkpads, and with few exceptions, they just keep going. About a third of them are 4 (or more) years old. They are not used lightly, either - they are "desktop replacements" for the users. We've replaced a couple dozen keyboards over the years - the letters are just painted on, not an inlay, and do wear off.

Well, OK, there was the time the employee showed up at the gate with one too many carry-ons, and checked the briefcase with the laptop... Idiot. She got a replacement desktop.

I just hope Lenovo keeps the standards up.

-jk

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#258318 - 16/06/2005 15:02 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: hybrid8]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
Too bad you need something smaller/lighter. Because I've yet to see or hear of any notebook that comes close to an Apple for look, feel and usability. The sub-notebook is definitely a market where Apple has missed out on a great opportunity.

Yeah, tell me about it. Part of me wants to tough it out for a couple more months to see if Apple releases a subnotebook or their rumored tablet PC. Most likely, Apple would wait until they had the low-power Pentium M's, which means a year wait.

Stupid ThinkPad question: what are the two keys above the arrow keys mapped to? One has a left-ish arrow and the other has a right-ish arrow. Is there some easy way to just make those be page-up and page-down? I use page-up/page-down all the time and having those keys up in the corner just seems lame.

Random Apple speculation: if Apple were going to do some sort of tablet PC based on Intel, then the IBM X41 would be an obvious development and testing platform, particularly with IBM standardizing components to the point that you can move system images across their different laptops. That means that OS X for Intel could well have all the driver support necessary to run (eventually) on the X41. The question is what sort of gross hackery would be necessary to install it there if Apple tries to lock OS X to their own hardware?

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#258319 - 16/06/2005 15:28 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
The arrow keys are by default mapped to backwards and forwards in your web browser. I'm not sure how dificult it is to change, I'll check next time I'm on my girlfriend's laptop if no one else has mentioned it. The lack of page up/down is one of the more frusterating things about my powerbook. (Anyone know how to make my enter key a fn key?)

Matthew

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#258320 - 16/06/2005 16:14 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 768
Loc: Washington, DC metro
You can remap single key presses in the registry in XP or 2003.

There's a guy who wrote a key scanning/registry editor to simplify it. I haven't used it myself, but I hear it's pretty good.

-jk

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#258321 - 16/06/2005 16:35 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: jmwking]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
Okay, that's a cool trick. I just killed my caps lock key with extreme prejudice. Me like.

Very very cool. Thanks for that link.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#258322 - 16/06/2005 16:37 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: tfabris]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 768
Loc: Washington, DC metro
Oops. Just don't kill a key you need in your login password. Good thing I have a spare login...

-jk

Edit: hit the damned button too soon.


Edited by jmwking (16/06/2005 16:39)

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#258323 - 16/06/2005 16:56 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: jmwking]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
Two of the guys in our office have the Latitude X300 (last year's version of the X1) and they adore them! They both have the media base that includes the DVD drive and all the extra ports. When they leave the office, it's simply a matter of popping it off the base and walking away, with no cords to unplug ever.

For some inconceivable reason, there doesn't seem to be a media base for the X1.

If it were me, I'd buy an X300 and upgrade the memory and hard drive. The only downside to that is the warranty.

EDIT: It looks like you can get an X300 from the Dell Outlet with 60gig and 1128meg with Dell's 3 year warranty.


Edited by JBjorgen (16/06/2005 17:24)

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#258324 - 16/06/2005 17:05 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: JBjorgen]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
the media base that includes the DVD drive

Which misses the coolest thing about a laptop with a DVD drive... roadtrip movie player...
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#258325 - 16/06/2005 17:16 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: tfabris]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
There's an external that comes with it as well...same as the X1.

The major advantage of having the second one in the media base is that the majority of the time when you're using CD's to install software, rip music, etc...you're doing it from your desk, and you don't have to fish out your external drive. Plus you don't have to pack your drive up whenever you leave, you can just leave it in your notebook bag.

Then again...for someone who's truly mobile (no single place where they use the notebook often enough to justify a port replicator), there are certainly better solutions.
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~ John

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#258326 - 16/06/2005 17:28 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: JBjorgen]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
If the laptop is your sole computer, then you clearly need a DVD drive. If you've got a desktop, then you can share the DVD over the network. To watch movies on the road, you can always rip the movie. (For me, I'd rather spend the extra disk space on music, not movies.)

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#258327 - 16/06/2005 17:40 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: JBjorgen]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
Two of the guys in our office have the Latitude X300 (last year's version of the X1)

I have the X200 (even older version than X300). Best laptop I have ever owned and it's one of the slowest (as far as clock speed). I don't have the media bay, but I do have the external combo drive. I bought the laptop almost 3 years ago as a refurb and haven't had a single problem. It even still has the stock Windows XP install on it (never re-installed!).

The only problem is hard drive upgradeablility. It looks like a total pain in the ass and you can only use drives of a limited thickness.

The X200 is made by Samsung (their model number is Q-10). I don't know if Samsung also makes the X300 and X1.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

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#258328 - 16/06/2005 18:13 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: robricc]
Dylan
addict

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
Quote:
The X200 is made by Samsung (their model number is Q-10). I don't know if Samsung also makes the X300 and X1.


Yes, Samsung makes the X1. Nice machine from what I've read.

Notebook Review is a good site for doing research. Also, Mobile magazine did a roundup of subnotebooks in the current issue. (The print magazine had more info then the web site I believe.)

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#258329 - 16/06/2005 19:09 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
Mataglap
enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/2003
Posts: 384
Quote:
Meta-observation: each of these vendor web sites is just awful. It's quite difficult to answer even basic questions like "is there a PCMCIA slot?"


For Thinkpads there is the "Personal Systems Reference Thinkpad Notebooks", which the June 2005 version is available on the IBM site. I hope Levono continues to maintain it.

The key to thinkpads is the model-type number, which is four digits-three letters. The X41 tablet (1866) contains "One Type I or one Type II / CardBus Plus 32-bit / PCMCIA 2.1 / integrated door"

--Nathan

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#258330 - 16/06/2005 21:00 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: Mataglap]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
For Thinkpads there is the "Personal Systems Reference Thinkpad Notebooks", which the June 2005 version is available on the IBM site. I hope Levono continues to maintain it.

That's exactly what I was looking for! Among other things, I didn't realize that the Thinkpad X41 comes in a tablet and a non-tablet variant. Why don't they have this information presented in any sort of useful way on their normal web site?

Sadly, it looks like they don't provide a number of options that you might reasonably want. Once you've decided you want the 60GB disk, you can't get the "educational" version any more (meaning I might be giving up on a discount of some sort) and you've only got two configurations to choose from. Hmm....

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#258331 - 16/06/2005 21:07 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
I've got to agree, I convinced my girlfriend to buy a thinkpad, only to find that IBM's website and priceing structure were far more arcane than Dells, which I thought was bad enough. With Dell, you price out your laptop in the four available stores, apply all coupons and see where you are. With IBM, there's only one store, but every model has who knows how many different variants, and each variant allows different things to be customized. The different variants are not all centrally linked.

I didn't deal with them on the phone, but I hear the salespeople are helpfull, so you might as well give them a call. The telephone support post-purchase was very quick and helpful on the only minor issue the machine has had so far. Why more companies don't go to the "submit request online, get a call back in half an hour from the support rep" I don't know.

In short, good machine, good support, bad website.

Matthew

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#258332 - 16/06/2005 23:34 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
I'll be ordering an X1 for one of my staff members, so I'll let you know how it is. Of course, my only other experience with a sub notebook (besides endless Toshiba Portiges that I've drooled over) is an HP Omnibook 600C. The built in mouse is the coolest laptop feature ever, next to the lift-up keyboard of the IBM ThinkPad 760XD. Man, I never should have sold that.....
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#258333 - 16/06/2005 23:56 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: FireFox31]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
No way the coolest feature ever was the butterfly keyboard.


_________________________

Matt

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#258334 - 17/06/2005 00:53 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: FireFox31]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
My first laptop was an HP Omnibook 300 or 400 or something along those lines. No screen backlight. Greyscale only. It has the cool pop-out mouse, and they somehow smashed Win3.1 into a PCMCIA read-only memory card that it could boot from. I then bought a 200MB or thereabouts PCMCIA type 3 card. This was enough for me to run Quicken and a terminal emulator. It was small, tough, and a great laptop. After that, I had the same Omnibook 600-series. Color screen. Real hard drive. Ran Win95 and friends. I added in some kind of cheesy Ethernet card and that machine got me all the way through graduate school. The only major screwup was that the VGA output tried to auto-detect if you had a projector, which didn't work with about half of the projectors at the time. Otherwise, a fine machine.

Once I finished grad school, it was on to the Sony Vaio 505G or GX. Basically, Sony's first and still amazing subnotebook. The only stupidity was the big ugly dongle you needed to get VGA output. That eventually crapped out and I got the Omnibook 500 and later 510 after the 500 had self-destructed enough times. In many respects, the Omnibook 500-series really got things right. Nice rubberized pads for your hands. No sharp corners. Very clever design, just dumb, crapola device driver support, and now lost in the HP/Compaq merger.

I definitely want to hear how that Dell X1 works out. I'm not buying tomorrow or anything, but if I did, I'd be leaning toward the ThinkPad X41 Tablet. The tablet functionality, at no extra weight, seems worth getting to play with.

Amusing footnote: shortly after I got to Rice, I went along on a research pitch to Dell (hitting them up for money to support our work). They never gave us any money, but they were remarking at my Sony 505. "Don't you need a CD?" "Naah, I've got all that back in the office." At the time, the lightest Dell laptop was stil in the 6-7 pound range. A few years later, they finally caved and started offering subnotebooks.

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#258335 - 17/06/2005 05:16 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
My first laptop was an HP Omnibook 300 or 400 or something along those lines.
...
After that, I had the same Omnibook 600-series.
...
Once I finished grad school, it was on to the Sony Vaio 505G or GX.

Interesting ! I went Omnibook 300 -> 600 -> Vaio 505 as well, but then unfortunately stuck with Sony (now on a PCG-6), but I am pretty sure this will be my last Sony... Loved the pop-out HP mouse!

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#258336 - 17/06/2005 06:00 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
I'd recomend one of the sony S series. It seems to meet the requirements.

I have the s150, one of the first of the line. I've had no problems with it.
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Glenn

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#258337 - 17/06/2005 06:46 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: gbeer]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
The problem with Sony is that their stuff gets obsoleted rather quickly, and support for older models is poor.

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#258338 - 17/06/2005 20:17 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
matthew_k
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
Quote:
Once you've decided you want the 60GB disk, you can't get the "educational" version any more (meaning I might be giving up on a discount of some sort) and you've only got two configurations to choose from. Hmm....

Oddly enough, my student store is stocking the 1866-6SU configuration, which apperently isn't an "educational" model. It's $2299, which doesn't look like much of a deal. Sure looks like a nice bundle of features, however. The other thing of note was that the specs listed say the base model weighs 3.5lbs and the 1866-6SU weighs 4lbs.

Matthew

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#258339 - 18/06/2005 00:43 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: julf]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Quote:
The problem with Sony is that their stuff gets obsoleted rather quickly, and support for older models is poor.


Yeah, Sony does tend to discontinue models quite quickly. But the difference in specs of my S150 are not all that different from the current model.

Thing is all the other brands I've bought, died before they had a chance to be obsolete. The Sony's are still running. One had it's PCMCIA socket smashed off the motherboard. I removed all the bits and except for that not working, it still runs fine. My neice uses it around the house for web browsing.

In terms of support, I'm curious what is it about Sony's support for older models that you find a problem? Repair? Parts? Driver updates?

Edit: I kind of think obsolete and Laptop are redundant. I don't think I've seen one that wasn't obsolete, in some aspect, within days of their debut.


Edited by gbeer (18/06/2005 00:46)
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Glenn

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#258340 - 18/06/2005 02:31 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: DWallach]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
I ordered the X1 today through educational pricing for $1800, but that's using a discount from late-May that I'd locked in using an E-quote, and it has less options than you wanted.

However, I priced an X1 through the Dell Educational Purchase Plan (EPP) which allows people affiliated with a Dell-purchasing university to get decent discounts. The same X1, was $1700 or something, thanks to 12% discount and $150 mail in rebate (and $100 instant rebate for purchasing online?). A call to Dell regarding all the confusing rebates revealed: They are running back-to-school specials now, which, as the sales rep said, "is like Christmas for computer sellers."

Try the Dell EPP Customer Sales at 1-800-695-8133 - Option 2 to see if you can get a deal. Then, for the better online pricing, buy through the EPP via: dell.com > Higher Education > "Faculty, Students & Staff Personal Purchases" > "If you do not know your member ID..." > Notebooks > X1 > amazingly low "starting" price. Good luck.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#258341 - 18/06/2005 06:52 Re: time for a new laptop? [Re: gbeer]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
In terms of support, I'm curious what is it about Sony's support for older models that you find a problem? Repair? Parts? Driver updates?

Parts mostly. Things like new batteries, plugs, accessories etc.
I tend to run Linux, so drivers are not here nor there...

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