#245789 - 07/01/2005 12:49
Ultimate Irony
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Read this article and then read the inevitable conclusion . Oh, the irony!
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#245790 - 07/01/2005 13:16
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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It is sad to see such a young person die, but my first thought was "natural selection at work" 
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#245791 - 07/01/2005 13:32
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Derek's brains and intensity would be missed.
Yeah, and sometimes people can be too smart for their own good. Then it just overflows into a new bucket of stupidity.
_________________________
Matt
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#245792 - 07/01/2005 14:00
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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This seems to be why we have different words for smart and wise.
-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#245793 - 07/01/2005 16:23
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Cybjorg]
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addict
Registered: 24/08/1999
Posts: 564
Loc: TX
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He was obviously so clever that he missed the important difference between doing something because its the law and doing something because it will help save your life in a crash.
Evolution in action (thanks Larry)
_________________________
==========================
the chewtoy for the dog of Life
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#245794 - 07/01/2005 17:02
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31601
Loc: Seattle, WA
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While we're on the subject of Darwin Awards, I saw two clear shining examples within the last couple of weeks.
1:
I was riding the chairlift up the hill at Boreal. The lift passes a snowboarder-park section of carefully-constructed jumps and grinding rails.
I watched as one of the boarders took a jump, tried to do a 180, did about a 96 instead, and tumbled on the landing. He was OK and sat up on his knees to brush off the snow.
The problem was that he sat there for an unusually long time, resting... At the bottom of a blind jump. Not even making an attempt to move out of the way.
I said aloud to the other passengers on the lift: "Oh no. This is going to get ugly really fast."
Sure enough, a skier takes the jump after him, tags him in the head with one of his skis mid-air. Didn't see how badly the kid got hurt, though. Don't remember if the skier was able to complete the landing without falling or not.
2:
I was driving home from Sacramento with my family during a cold, rainy night. We are in the rightmost lane, slowing for a banked curve offramp. The offramp was two lanes, so we were in the "exit only" lane, and there was another car ahead and to the left of us in the other lane, the optional-exit lane. We were both slowing to well below the speed limit because it was very cold and wet and the road conditions were not good.
A red Honda Civic, lowered so that it nearly scraped the ground, big fat chrome exhaust pipe, and a dorky wing bolted to the trunk, came speeding up on our left side. He weaved through the narrow space between me and the other car. He was driving at about the freeway's speed limit of 65 as he entered this sharp, banked turn.
It was very satisfying to watch him spin out completely at the apex of the turn.
Fortunately for him, he hit no one else, and merely spun into the grass on the inside of the corner. I don't think he even got damaged at all. Hopefully, it scared the living crap out of him, though.
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#245795 - 07/01/2005 17:58
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ashmoore]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
He was obviously so clever that he missed the important difference between doing something because its the law and doing something because it will help save your life in a crash.
Actually, No. In fact, that important distinction was the entire thesis of his first article: just because it may "save" (prolong is a more accurate word) one's life is no reason to legislate forced compliance.
But no matter. I figure by the time I'm 65 or so, it'll be mandatory to wear helmets in automobiles (an equally good idea as seatbelts), and hip protectors when walking about (too many older people damaging hips today).
Cheers
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#245796 - 07/01/2005 18:05
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I felt very guilty as I initally chuckled when I realised he was the guy that wrote the article. What a shame, doesn't matter what your IQ is or how good your debating skills are, if you don't wear a seatbelt then you're the biggest dumbass in the world.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#245797 - 07/01/2005 18:11
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
I watched as one of the boarders took a jump, tried to do a 180, did about a 96 instead, and tumbled on the landing. He was OK and sat up on his knees to brush off the snow.
The problem was that he sat there for an unusually long time, resting... At the bottom of a blind jump. Not even making an attempt to move out of the way.
Although this is not a very smart thing to do, the uphill skiier/rider has the responsibility to ensure they do not cause a collision. You are responsible for ensuring your landing is clear before hucking off a jump, even if it is a blind landing. On jumps like these, it is best to ride in a pack and have a spotter.
I see a lot of dumb things on the slopes though. I wear a helmet not out of fear that I will crash into someone/something, but that someone will hit me.
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#245798 - 07/01/2005 18:22
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
In fact, that important distinction was the entire thesis of his first article: just because it may "save" (prolong is a more accurate word) one's life is no reason to legislate forced compliance.
Very true, and the number of bikers you see wearing helmets in anti-helmet-law rallies supports this notion.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#245799 - 07/01/2005 18:41
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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addict
Registered: 24/08/1999
Posts: 564
Loc: TX
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But this kid refused to wear a seatbelt just because there was a law telling him he had to.
I wonder if his parents appreciate his stance on this particular law?
My favorite comment is "Driving is not a right"
Edited by ashmoore (07/01/2005 19:10)
_________________________
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the chewtoy for the dog of Life
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#245800 - 07/01/2005 21:52
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Dignan]
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member
Registered: 10/09/2004
Posts: 127
Loc: Bay Area, CA/Anchorage, AK
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Quote:
Then it just overflows into a new bucket of stupidity.
Don't you mean 'pail' of stupidity (original article). I love the visual image that produces.
One has to wonder whether that opinion was one he truly felt was worth dying for...when you're young you're immortal and it's all so abstract... another young friend who is always busy and in a hurry was fortunate enough to learn the lesson recently with nothing worse than a night in the hospital and some colorful bruises.
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#245801 - 07/01/2005 23:09
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: kayakjazz]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
One has to wonder whether that opinion was one he truly felt was worth dying for...when you're young you're immortal and it's all so abstract... another young friend who is always busy and in a hurry was fortunate enough to learn the lesson recently with nothing worse than a night in the hospital and some colorful bruises.
In the UK it seems that young drivers pass their test and then drive at warp factor nine and nothing matters until they have an almighty crash or an almighty scare. The fact that 3rd party insurance starts at £1500/yr for the cheapest car in the safest location is proof enough.
I posted these links on another forum and got similar comments - I am surprised that the replies are only about 75% in favour of belts, quite surprising considering seat belt compliance for car drivers is over 90% here (vans are much lower, lorries usually don't have them).
Gareth
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#245802 - 08/01/2005 03:07
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: g_attrill]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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It's about more than just belts.
Most all of us agree that they're a Good Idea (tm); but are they worth sending people to jail for (not wearing) is the question?
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#245803 - 08/01/2005 05:04
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
It's about more than just belts.
Most all of us agree that they're a Good Idea (tm); but are they worth sending people to jail for (not wearing) is the question?
I kind of agree there. I live in a country where a seatbelt is simply a part of life. It's an automatic action whenever I get in a car to put the seatbelt on. Is it really that much effort to wear a seatbelt? No. Does it hinder you while driving? No.
The US is known for not wearing seatbelts. I think I remember reading somewhere that some European cars even have their airbags adjusted to inflate slower because people don't wear seatbelts.
It's a fine line on how you enforce wearing of seatbelts. Here I think it's 3 points (out of 12) and a $250 fine. So not wearing one carries a considerable fine and could even cost you your licence.
At the end of the day though, this guy chose to not wear a seatbelt and that choice probably cost him his life.
_________________________
Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#245804 - 08/01/2005 07:48
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
You are responsible for ensuring your landing is clear before hucking off a jump, even if it is a blind landing. On jumps like these, it is best to ride in a pack and have a spotter.
This happened to me at one time -- I was scooting past the landing for a jump and stacked it. The spotter called to the other guy to stop, but he didn't. Of course, I thought the spotter was yelling at me to stop, so I did. Damn near nearly hit me.
Quote:
I see a lot of dumb things on the slopes though. I wear a helmet not out of fear that I will crash into someone/something, but that someone will hit me.
Personally, I wear a helmet out of fear that I'll kick myself in the back of the head again...
_________________________
-- roger
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#245805 - 08/01/2005 07:57
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
but are they worth sending people to jail for (not wearing) is the question?
Well, not to jail, but perhaps a little fine would be acceptable? Or, if not, since we are talking of so 'market-orianted' country as US, perhaps a fine print on your health and life insurance policies stating they don't cover consequnces of not being buckled-up? We were seeing here poeple saying they don't see why the society would cover smoking-related health care expenses. Why would this be any different?
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#245806 - 08/01/2005 09:03
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Hey, I hate seatbelt laws too; like drug laws and prositution laws and helmet laws and bunch of other things, I think goverment should stay the hell out of my business when it doesn't really affect anyone else but me...but I still put the damn thing on every time because, well, I am not a moron.
And by the way, that isn't really irony.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#245807 - 08/01/2005 12:33
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
when it doesn't really affect anyone else but me...
But it does affect other people. If you get injured because you're not wearing a seatbelt, it causes everybody's rates to rise. Now, I'm not arguing that the government should get involved in this case -- your insurance company can just refuse to pay your bills if you weren't wearing the seatbelt.
In the UK, on the other hand, because injured people get NHS healthcare, it comes out of everyone's taxes, and so I think the government is right to require the wearing of seatbelts.
_________________________
-- roger
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#245808 - 08/01/2005 12:52
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Roger]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
In the UK, on the other hand, because injured people get NHS healthcare, it comes out of everyone's taxes, and so I think the government is right to require the wearing of seatbelts.
Ummh, yes... But where do you draw the line? Would the government be right in requiring you to drink at least 2 glasses of milk per day? In banning McDonalds hamburgers? Snowboarding and motorcycles?
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#245809 - 08/01/2005 13:12
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Roger]
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old hand
Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
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In the US, usually the government ends up paying for folks that aren't covered by insurance, and when the insured run out of coverage, the government takes over. So it does effect everyone.
The airbags in the US are much stronger than in Europe, as they are design to save (prolong) the lives of folks not wearing seatbelts. However, they explode with such force that they injure and sometimes kill those of us that do wear belts. My car had a generation 1 airbag in it (the strongest explosive) and after seeing the damage it did to another car of the same year and make, as the result of a fairly minor crash, I removed it.
I think that everyone should have to pass a comprehensive physics test involving many questions about unrestrained loads before they can get a driver's license.
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#245810 - 08/01/2005 14:10
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: julf]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
But where do you draw the line? Would the government be right in requiring you to drink at least 2 glasses of milk per day? In banning McDonalds hamburgers? Snowboarding and motorcycles?
Exactly. And since any ride in a private motor vehicle is MUCH more dangerous than taking a cab (professional full-time driver), we should outlaw private cars as well.
And forget about allowing people to live and/or work and/or even just commute THROUGH any polluted urban areas -- way too expensive for health care: better make a law against that too.
And desk jobs, oh my! The ultimate cause of stress and heart attacks! Everyone should be required by law to do nothing but outdoor manual labour in the unpolluted far north.
-ml
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#245811 - 08/01/2005 14:32
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
Everyone should be required by law to do nothing but outdoor manual labour in the unpolluted far north.
Hey! Great idea! That might really improve things. I guess you could even call it a Cultural Revolution. 
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#245813 - 11/01/2005 00:59
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 03/08/1999
Posts: 451
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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Consider this:
The cost in hospital care for crash victims is huge - it dwarfs Derek Kieler's quoted $25M on an advertising campaign by orders of magnitude. This bill is often paid by the government that's paying the hospital bills. So it makes a lot of sense for them to lobby for more advertising and legislation to enforce a thing which will save them hundreds of millions of dollars a year. And also consider that each place in an intensive care ward that's taken by someone who's been badly mauled after not wearing a seatbelt may be taking the place of someone who has something less in their power to prevent (and therefore, in some ways, more deserving of the care).
That's a lot of good reason to enforce seatbelt wearing.
It's when these chromosome-deficient people decide that they deserve the same treatment as everyone else in that hospital ward, even though they contributed to their own injuries, that I really start looking for a clocktower and a high-powered rifle - metaphorically speaking.
Have fun,
Paul
P.S. It occurs to me that the last paragraph is a good example of why the US is so hated by a lot of people - because it doesn't consider that the results of its own actions should affect other people's (and countries's) behaviour toward it.
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#245814 - 11/01/2005 04:37
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: PaulWay]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote:
So it makes a lot of sense for them to lobby for more advertising and legislation to enforce a thing which will save them hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
Yeah, that is a good reason to get rid of people's liberties; saving money. I'm sorry that you think so little of giving people the right to live their lives the way they like and have the government tell them how to live it instead because it is fiscally convenient.
Really, I see that kind of attitude is part of a much larger and more disturbing trend through many of the world's Democracies that seem to think that sacrificing liberty, whether be it because it saves money or makes it easier to catch terrorists, is OK to do....almost like a lot of people are just sick of having rights. It really scares me.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#245815 - 11/01/2005 06:46
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
Yeah, that is a good reason to get rid of people's liberties; saving money. I'm sorry that you think so little of giving people the right to live their lives the way they like and have the government tell them how to live it instead because it is fiscally convenient.
Money we are talking about is not infinite and is 'contributed' by taxpayers. A guy who 'chooses' to have a load of money spent of him because he did not wear the seatbelt chooses to spend my money, which I would prefer, say, to save for the day I get heart attack. This is not simple: virtually every liberty excercised affects to some degree some other liberty. We have to compromise (optimise, if you will), and I deem some liberties and rights (like free speech) much more important than others (like not wearing a seatbelt). Moreover, I think that some rights some people would not even recognise as such (like basic health care, education and subsistence and reasonable level of safety) more important than not wearing seatbelts. Where should the line be drawn (harmfull food, tobacco, drugs)? Frankly, I don't know.
Tradeoffs are not easy and government will often use protection of some of those rights (like security) as mere excuse to trample on some fundamental liberty (like privacy)....
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#245816 - 12/01/2005 02:08
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: bonzi]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Money we are talking about is not infinite and is 'contributed' by taxpayers.
Most people who end up in the emergency room end up paying for it. And as a lot of people mentioned, that is very slippery slope that ends up with the goverment ruling your life in every way.
> Moreover, I think that some rights some people would not even recognise as such...
I think that is confusing the issue. We are talking about what the goverment shouldn't do, not what they should. Whole different animal.
> Where should the line be drawn
I think it is very easy to draw; Direct harm. Simple and easy to follow, the goverment should stay out of my life unless I am directly harming someone else. This trend towards laws that address, for lack of a better phrase, "indirect harm" is a very dangerous road that I don't like one bit. Europe has been going down this road for quite a while and the lack of some basic freedoms there versus the U.S. is quite noticable.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#245817 - 12/01/2005 03:01
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
>Europe has been going down this road for quite a while and the lack of some basic freedoms there versus the U.S. is quite noticable.
Like what? (I'm questioning, not challenging.)
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#245818 - 12/01/2005 03:15
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I think it is very easy to draw; Direct harm. Simple and easy to follow, the goverment should stay out of my life unless I am directly harming someone else.
I consider myself a (conflicted) small-l libertarian, so I can identify with this perspective.
I will ask, though: Big-L Libertarian college essayist refuses to wear seatbelt and subsequently launches through windshield of his buddy's Sentra during a traffic oopsie. Not direct harm to anyone else, true? If not personally qualified as an EMT or paramedic, is it not then reasonable to walk away, or maybe sit down by the side of the road a few meters away from the dying man and pull out a deck of cards for a few hands of whist, hearts , or spades?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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