#237540 - 14/10/2004 16:49
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
wouldn't Dickens have had "a hundred and thirty-and-seven pounds"?
Anyone know at what point it went from "seven-and-thirty" to "thirty-and-seven"?
Perhaps late 18th century? Anyone know?
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#237541 - 14/10/2004 17:03
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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What? Everyone else in the World studies Mathematics not Mathematic. And as I analyse your post, I realise that you Yanks have a fixation witth the letter "zed" too.
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#237542 - 14/10/2004 17:36
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Anyone know at what point it went from "seven-and-thirty" to "thirty-and-seven"?
Perhaps late 18th century? Anyone know?
I don't, but it Housman's A Shropshire Lad has "When I was one-and-twenty" in 1896, so, at least dialectically, it survived quite a while. OED, which is never very quick to move with the times, says that twenty-one has "now mostly superseded" one-and-twenty (entry "twentieth"). That's another good example of how something as seemingly linguistically simple as names for counting numbers, is in fact in a constant state of flux. Going back further still, it used to be "six hundreds of pounds" rather than "six hundred pounds" -- numbers used only to be nouns, but then they got adjectived.
At least before "9/11", quoting dates as two numbers is something else that marks out a speaker of US English. (And this time Britons do struggle to work out what's meant, as the numbers seem the wrong way round, reading it like a fraction as if it were 9 of 11 rather than 11th of the 9th. It feels as alien to proper decimal positional notation as does one-and-twenty.) During one early roadmap meeting, Rob wrote up on the whiteboard "Karma 10/6", and we all thought that ten-and-sixpence for an MP3 player sounded like a very good price. That's two for a guinea!
Peter
PS. Actually we're all too young to remember pre-decimal currency. But saying that stopped Rob writing his wonky dates.
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#237543 - 14/10/2004 17:50
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I got it from my third grade English teacher. I remember it very well, she was very vehement that and would not be used between one hundred and the following whole numbers.
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#237544 - 14/10/2004 18:55
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Daria]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Well, from a common sense perspective (with the aid of a bottle of wine) it seems obvious - 'and' has to be there because for 148, that is one hundred and forty-eight. The only other sensible option is to say one-four-eight. I'll go now 
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#237545 - 14/10/2004 18:55
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Interestingly, I think most (non-ignorant?) Americans would say "a hundred and thirty-seven", but "one hundred thirty-seven".
I always have problems with cabs in the US because of this. It seems most US cab drivers can't understand the English version with the extra "ands".
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#237546 - 14/10/2004 19:11
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's already stretching it pretty far to expect them to be able to understand English at all.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237547 - 14/10/2004 19:25
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
And as I analyse your post, I realise that you Yanks have a fixation witth the letter "zed" too.
Ah yes, we do love our "zees."
We find them much snazzier than the sassy 'S.'
We're not quite so enamored of u's however -- saving them mostly for special occasions.
In fact, you might say it's our favorite thing to drop them when the Queen's English might find them quite proper.
Continuing on with the total diversion of this thread....
A girl in my English class when I was in high school protested that she lost a point on her paper for a misspelling. She pointed out (correctly) that she had in fact used the correct British spelling. My English teacher agreed and told her that she was free to use British spelling on all her papers, so long as she used it consistently and uniformly. Realizing quickly that in the long run she would face far more points lost for Americanisms, the student quickly backed down. I don't think the student relished the thought of looking up every questionable word to verify every case where British/American spellings differed.
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#237548 - 14/10/2004 20:03
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
I always have problems with cabs in the US because of this. It seems most US cab drivers can't understand the English version with the extra "ands".
That's odd. This may be a regionalism, but in vast parts of the US, most people actually use the extra "ands" in spoken English. That's why teachers have to work so hard to pound it out of them in written American English.
So I seriously doubt it was the "ands" causing the difficulties.
Might be those pesky vowels. Did you try talking very nasally and brusquely?
Just kidding. I'm not sure which is more horrendous, a Brit poorly faking an American accent, or a Yank poorly faking a British one. Strangely, Aussies usually do a great job at faking an American accent (but the converse is certainly not true).
Hmmmm, now that I think about it, the American faking the British accent must be worse. I'm sure we generate a totally delightful mix of Cockney, Scouse, Oxbridge, and BBC received pronunciation. At least the Brit aiming for a US accent usually manages to hit something like a midwest accent with a little New York thrown in -- which is bizarre but probably less nightmarish than the American's unique concoction of British English.
My Bostonian friends were really annoyed with my attempts at Southie. They said I was "overdoing it" a little. Similarly, one of my British friends used to make me roll on the floor with his futile impersonations of a US deep south accent. He was nowhere close, but damn, whatever he was doing sure sounded funny.
/music
"Shine your shoes, guvna?"
"Four and twenty blackbirds"
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#237549 - 14/10/2004 20:17
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
So I seriously doubt it was the "ands" causing the difficulties.
That is what it seemed like (taking the "ands" out helped), this was in Seattle mainly
Quote:
probably less nightmarish than the American's unique concoction of British English.
I have an American friend that we have been training for years to say "bugger" properly, he still can't do it (but then we can't say "damn" in the same way he can).
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#237550 - 15/10/2004 01:27
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Excellent post, music!
Set aside a small amount of time every week to do this stuff, that way it never builds up and becomes overwhelming. I.e., pay all bills every Tuesday night, or spend 15 minutes researching investments every Sunday afternoon, etc.
I have taken this one step further...
I have structured my repetitive bills (utilities, mortgage, insurance, etc.) so that they are either automatically taken out of my checking account every month, or applied against my credit card every month.
I am now in the position of writing ONE CHECK PER YEAR, and that one only because my water company doesn't accept credit cards. (I wait until I owe them a couple hundred dollars, then write them a check for $1000 and that keeps them off my back for another fifteen months or so.)
Once a month I go online to my bank account and compare my end-of-month balance to my 10-year budget projection, and make whatever changes are necessary to the budget (add/subtract a hundred dollars or so to my "unexpected expenses" category).
So, all told, I probably spend about 15 minutes a month managing my finances.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#237551 - 15/10/2004 01:34
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I've never had an issue with vacations in the US [snip] When I go abroad (out of North America), I call up my credit card company, and tell them what countries I'm visiting, and give them the dates of travelThat's the secret! When I was bringing the ShoWagon back from New Hampshire, my main credit card was suspended mid-trip because of quite truly fraudulent use -- a website with my credit card info had been hacked, and the criminal genius used my card to place long distance phone calls from his home phone. So my emergency reserve almost never ever used backup card came into play -- and by the time I got out of Canada, that card also got suspended because (understandably) my credit card company became concerned that this card than hadn't been used for 5 years suddenly got used over a three day period in three states and two Canadian provinces. Fortunately I had just enough cash in my wallet to buy the last tank of gas I needed for the rest of the trip home.  So, yes, let your credit card company know if you are going to be doing unusual things with the card. tanstaafl.
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#237552 - 15/10/2004 01:46
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I was just on a trip to Dallas last week and decided to buy a new laptop at Fry's. Well the first run through the card was declined I figured it was because of some fraud kind of thing they try it again and it goes through. Then when I go home I recieved a letter saying to call the credit card company to verify charges due to potential fraud.
Isn't it a little late then. I can understand though i'm sure they get plenty to short sighted pissed off people calling when their cards are declined for fraud protection.
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Matt
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#237553 - 15/10/2004 03:04
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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That's a lot of water. I pay $26.80/quarter for mine.
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#237554 - 15/10/2004 03:20
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Mine is metered, but I usually pay $40/quarter.
Edited by robricc (15/10/2004 03:20)
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80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#237555 - 15/10/2004 03:33
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Mine is metered. That's just the minimum usage they always bill for, I guess.
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#237556 - 15/10/2004 07:30
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
This may be a regionalism, but in vast parts of the US, most people actually use the extra "ands" in spoken English. That's why teachers have to work so hard to pound it out of them in written American English.
How far were the Blues Brothers from Chicago? I'm pretty sure it was "a hundred and six miles". Does US English put the "and" back in if there's no tens digit? What if you write a cheque for $106? (British English puts the "and" back after thousands if there's no hundreds digit: two thousand and six, four thousand and ninety-six.)
Peter
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#237557 - 15/10/2004 07:49
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Hehe, thought that might stir things up a bit...
If the Blues Brothers say it that way, then it's got to be right.
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#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#237558 - 15/10/2004 10:10
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki. If you can get past the bad writing, it will be a major paradigm shift for you as it was for me.
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#237559 - 15/10/2004 12:18
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In my experience, and maybe I didn't make this clear above, "and" is used when prefixing the number with "a" instead of "one". Of course, there's still a lot of variation.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237560 - 15/10/2004 14:48
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
What if you write a cheque for $106? (British English puts the "and" back after thousands if there's no hundreds digit: two thousand and six, four thousand and ninety-six.)
On US checks, the "and" is only supposed to be used for the decimal point. Period. (er, uh, "full stop." Whatever.)
In spoken American English, in my experience, the "and" is frequently used, whether or not it is "a hundred" or "one hundred" or "four hundred."
But then, I'm from a region which frequently refers to someone being "six foot" tall, rather than "six feet" tall. And I know that the dropping of the plural for some units of length and measure is more common in the southern US and less common in the northern US. I have no idea if this correlates with other numeric speaking anomalies.
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#237561 - 15/10/2004 15:38
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Can o' worms there.
I was taught tha units are never to be pluralised, even though it happens nearly all the time, "Five miles" etc. I don't recall the reasoning, but I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that the unit is abstract and not tangible.
eg When descibing the maximum amount of water that a "Five Gallon Bucket" would hold, you'd say "Five Gallon", "40 Pint" or "22.73 litre". Each gallon, pint or litre is abstract.
Now if you actually filled the bucket and wanted to describe how much water you had...
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#237562 - 15/10/2004 16:07
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Each gallon, pint or litre is abstract.
This is standard US usage as well. I.e., "ten gallon hat," "forty gallon drum," "thirty-aught-six." Um, scratch that last one.
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#237563 - 15/10/2004 16:13
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The reason that "gallon" in "five gallon bucket" is not pluralized is because it's not a noun; it's an adjective. You wouldn't describe a bucket that contained nails as the "nails bucket", but the "nail bucket". I've never heard of not pluralizing a noun that is preceded by a non-zero whole number. Well, other than with "cents" in certain rural areas: "How much is that gumdrop?" "Five cent."
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Bitt Faulk
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#237564 - 15/10/2004 16:28
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
is not pluralized is because it's not a noun; it's an adjective.
D'oh! You are correct. I didn't think before I responded.
Quote:
I've never heard of not pluralizing a noun that is preceded by a non-zero whole number
Well, besides the two cases I have already mentioned (certain lengths and measures), the other common case is when referring to livestock or game. I.e., "fifty head of cattle" or "today I shot fourteen dove." Again, the second example is most definitely a regionalism and is not considered proper -- just extremely common in certain areas. However, I believe "fifty head of cattle" is considered proper usage. (Webster, entry 4)
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#237565 - 15/10/2004 18:46
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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If you were to behead those fifty head of cattle you'd have fifty cattle heads.  -Zeke
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#237566 - 15/10/2004 19:02
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
The reason that "gallon" in "five gallon bucket" is not pluralized is because it's not a noun; it's an adjective.
Oh, I totally agree. I think you misunderstood my statement;
Quote:
eg When descibing the maximum amount of water that a "Five Gallon Bucket" would hold, you'd say "Five Gallon", "40 Pint" or "22.73 litre". Each gallon, pint or litre is abstract.
Q. "How much water can a five gallon bucket hold?"
A1. "Five gallon."
A2. "40 pint."
A3. "22.73 litre."
The usage of "five gallon" vs "five gallons" in the question was never in doubt. In the question, "five gallon" is, as you've stated, an adjective. In the answer, however, it is not.
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#237567 - 15/10/2004 19:09
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yes, and I disagree with your conclusion.
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Bitt Faulk
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#237568 - 17/10/2004 20:36
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Ezekiel]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Since one subthread of this has moved on to regional usages and British/American language differences, I thought I would point out Eats, Shoots & Leaves which kayakjazz brought up in another unrelated thread here.
Fortunately, the American Edition has chosen to leave her British spellings, punctuation, and references unmolested; they simply added a preface (by the author) which deals with some of these differences. I have certainly enjoyed it so far.
Those of you who have read it have, no doubt, spotted my "Oxford Comma" above which is standard American usage, but no longer quite so standard on the other side of the pond.
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