#236002 - 01/10/2004 22:46
Re: Dear John
[Re: Redrum]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
I will be voting for Bush because I agree with his stance on most issues. You can call him stupid, me stupid, whatever makes you feel good about yourself. However I will not do likewise. It is nice to live in a country where we can sharply disagree and say so.
Hrmm... I re-read my post, and I can't find where I called Bush or you stupid. Could you point it out to me?
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Dave
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#236003 - 01/10/2004 22:49
Re: Dear John
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
I don't think people are thinking that. There's serious prejudice these days against smart people.
Sadly, Bitt, I think you're right. My point was that we should consider what we're doing when we can't say our leader is the best we have to offer, that he or she represents the best qualities of our people.
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Dave
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#236004 - 02/10/2004 02:35
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Actually, my list was brought to you by the letters "t", "c" and "p", and the number "80".
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#236005 - 02/10/2004 03:12
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Finally watched the debate on the Tivo.
I agree that Kerry won, and that Bush seemed a bit off his game. Bush resorted to repeating himself too much instead of direct answers. Bush wanted the "extra" 30-second rebuttals far too often, I think, Kerry was very good about not asking for those much.
But that's not the thing that "got" me.
I can't believe I haven't heard anyone else pick up on this in the news media yet. Everyone talks about how there weren't any gaffes or missteps to seize upon. Or they make the jokes about the Poland line.
No, what GOT me was this...
Kerry is saying that we need to finish the job in Iraq quickly and then get the heck out of there. And he's got a plan to get us out of there while still getting the job done. Whether I believe he can really accomplish that task is a different discussion, but at least he's saying we don't have any business staying there. And the Kerry campaign has leveled thinly-veiled accusations at Bush of deliberately wanting to stay in Iraq for selfish reasons, such as Haliburton, or Oil, or installing permanent military bases. Which the White House denies of course.
Then Bush says this. This is the entirety of one of his 30-second extensions...
Quote:
The reason why Prime Minister Allawi said they're coming across the border is because he recognizes that this is a central part of the war on terror. They're fighting us because they're fighting freedom.
They understand that a free Afghanistan or a free Iraq will be a major defeat for them. And those are the stakes.
And that's why it is essential we not leave. That's why it's essential we hold the line. That's why it's essential we win. And we will. Under my leadership we're going to win this war in Iraq.
Did ANYONE catch that? Come on.
"...that's why it is essential we not leave."
Not, "... until after the job is done", not "... before Iraq is free".
"...it is essential we not leave." Period, full stop.
Bush wants us to stay there indefinitely. He wants us to be a long-term occupying force, for whatever reason. You could argue that it was a simple misstatement rather than a Freudian slip, sure. But if it quacks like a duck...
Bush wants us to stay there indefinitely. I dunno about you all, but that idea doesn't sit well with me, and I wonder if it were publicized, if it would sit well even with Bush's own supporters.
Here's the other moment that, although it didn't "get" me, I wondered why Kerry didn't seize upon it:
Quote:
And now we're fighting them now. And it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work.
I don't think it's a good idea for the President to emphasize that he watches the war with the same detached interest as most other television viewers. I'm sorry, I don't think anyone watching on TV can truly imagine how hard it really is simply by watching it on CNN.
I don't know if Kerry can accomplish the things he said he'd accomplish during the debate. But he certainly sounds like he's willing to try. George had his shot at it, and it's clearly not working, but he's telling us he's going to keep right at it. Kerry kept saying that Bush promises only "more of the same", and Bush didn't deny it.
If he were my employee, and was showing that kind of performance, I'd say, "sorry, next review, you're outta here, we're hiring someone else".
Wait a minute, he is. And I will.
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#236006 - 02/10/2004 03:16
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
If he were my employee, and was showing that kind of performance, I'd say, "sorry, next review, you're outta here, we're hiring someone else".
Wait a minute, he is. And I will.
You and i are voting the same, i bet, but I gotta tell you... good luck with that. Firing people from this job is probably about as easy as getting rid of people at mine.
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#236007 - 02/10/2004 03:27
Re: Dear John
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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*Nod*
Yeah, we gotta convince his other bosses, too. That's the hard part. They like him.
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#236008 - 02/10/2004 03:52
Re: Dear John
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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seeming change in opinion or tune - which is a image that seems to recently plague the Kerry campaign.
Every time I hear that sentiment, the image comes to mind of George Bush saying, "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts!"
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#236009 - 02/10/2004 14:10
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Quote:
"...that's why it is essential we not leave.
Not, "... until after the job is done", not "... before Iraq is free".
"...it is essential we not leave." Period, full stop.
Bush wants us to stay there indefinitely.
I honestly think you're overreading his statement. The same could be said of Kerry in this article where he's quoted from the campaign trails as saying Quote:
Well, Mr. President, nobody’s talking about leaving, nobody’s talking about wilting and wavering. We’re talking about winning and getting the job done right
Note that I don't for one second believe that Kerry wants us to stay indefinitely- I interpret his statement the same way I interpret Bush's: We're going to stay as long as we have to to win.
As far as how I saw the debates, I thought Kerry came of kind of pompous with his laughs and little digs, but ultimately this will play to his supporters who really don't like Bush. If I were in the middle this would have been a big turn off. What Bush did (and I didn't see the whole thing, just about the first third) was answer every question "we need to hold the line in Iraq" whether the question was about that or not. He didn't even pretend to show up for a debate.
I think Kerry came of better because he's a better speaker, but honestly neither were very impressive to me. I was irritated by almost every answer.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#236010 - 02/10/2004 14:14
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
If he were my employee, and was showing that kind of performance, I'd say, "sorry, next review, you're outta here, we're hiring someone else".
Wait a minute, he is. And I will.
Well, what we can't seem to do is fire the HR department. Because you see they've only brought us the two options . . .
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#236011 - 02/10/2004 14:18
Re: Dear John
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
In the end, I'd say that you could probably skip the debate because this sums the issues up quite handily.
I was going to say this same thing!
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#236012 - 02/10/2004 14:22
Re: Dear John
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
If he were my employee, and was showing that kind of performance, I'd say, "sorry, next review, you're outta here, we're hiring someone else".
Wait a minute, he is. And I will.
Well, what we can't seem to do is fire the HR department. Because you see they've only brought us the two options . . .
Which makes them also just like the HR department at work (or maybe we don't have that many applicants)
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#236013 - 03/10/2004 15:32
Re: Dear John
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I thought that Bush's squirming and irritated expressions were more annoying than Kerry's smiling, honestly.
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Bitt Faulk
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#236014 - 03/10/2004 18:30
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Before I get into my impressions of the debate, it's worth mentioning what they teach you when you get "press training". You don't so much look at the conversation as an attempt to convince the other side of your opinion. Instead, you look at the conversation as a negotiation over what your sound bites will be. You're supposed to have no more than three points, and if you get a question somewhere else, you try to connect the answer back to one of your three main points.
That said, my initial impression of the debate, before I watched any of the "spin" was that neither candidate won, but Kerry was at least trying to address the questions. Bush was clearly in "press" mode, giving many of the same answers repeatedly. Furthermore, Kerry did a resonable job of looking reasonable, keeping his cool, and speaking well. Bush lost his cool, had terrible body language, and clearly suffered brain-lock at several points before he dragged himself back onto one of his talking points.
Based on that, I can't say that Kerry "won", but on the signature issue where Bush is supposed to be kicking Kerry's butt, we instead saw Kerry holding his own and land a couple blows in the process.
Watching some of the post-debate "spin" made my head hurt. I'm not sure if it's funny or just sad watching the Republican partisans trying to make the case that Bush somehow did a good job in the debate. The "Daily Show with Jon Stewart" did a half-way reasonable job of skewering the whole debate process, and Saturday Night Live did an astonishingly funny opening parody of the debate. SNL's Kerry parody said "I've consistently had one position on Iraq" and then proceeded to give an amazingly convoluted answer. Likewise, the Kerry parody claimed he'd consistently said one thing to pro-war audiences and the opposite to anti-war audiences. "It's not flip-flopping, it's pandering." The Bush parody whined a lot about how hard it is being the president and criticized Kerry for things he never said. Very fun, and for SNL, it was quite unusual because it was far more biting and insightful than their usual shallow humor.
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#236015 - 03/10/2004 18:46
Re: Dear John
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In fact, I think large portions of the Bush dialog from the SNL skit were taken verbatim from the actual debate. Funny.
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Bitt Faulk
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#236016 - 03/10/2004 19:39
Re: Dear John
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Quote:
Bush's greatest asset in debating is his ability to ignore whatever questions are being asked and repeat the same answers over again
Isn't that a definition of a politician, Bush is just a recent perpetrator?
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Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#236018 - 05/10/2004 01:41
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Interesting, I was completely unaware of the new Kerry biopic "Going Upriver" until about 20 minutes ago. Even Boston's right-wing daily gave it three stars and criticized it mostly on what I would consider "real" filmmaking issues of "balance". Still a Massachusetts newspaper. Don't burn them bridges! DVD of the movie "expected to ship October 19" Cutting it close, aren't they? Showing on 3 screens in Seattle, I see, versus 7-8 screens for F9/11. I wonder how many people will go to see it? I wonder how many *Republicans* will go to see it??? Michael Moore didn't make it, so I can't see why anybody would avoid it. 
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#236019 - 05/10/2004 10:40
Re: Dear John
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Now, if I wasn't timed out for editing, I would substitute "was" for "is".
Point is, the world is full of mediocre "politicians" who think that they are "statesmen", and their is a world of difference between those two words.
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Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#236020 - 05/10/2004 11:02
Re: Dear John
[Re: boxer]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 778
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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Quote:
the world is full of mediocre "politicians" who think that they are "statesmen",
I always liked Bloom County's take on Statesmen - "A Statesman is a dead politician. And lord knows we need more statesmen!"
-jk
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#236021 - 05/10/2004 11:26
Re: Dear John
[Re: boxer]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I was reiterating your point with a Bill Clinton quote, ad-nauseam.
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#236022 - 05/10/2004 11:48
Re: Dear John
[Re: jmwking]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Quote:
"A Statesman is a dead politician. And lord knows we need more statesmen!"
I love that quote, which I hadn't heard before and will now quote it ad nauseum!
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Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#236023 - 05/10/2004 13:26
Re: Dear John
[Re: jmwking]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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On the other hand, Jimmy Carter is doing a damn good job as a statesman. I'd vote for him for President in an instant if he'd run again. I'm somewhat curous about how our Christian-oriented voters would feel about that.
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Bitt Faulk
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#236024 - 05/10/2004 13:36
Re: Dear John
[Re: wfaulk]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Quote:
...how our Christian-oriented voters would feel about that.
They'll probably suggest that he is past it.
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#236025 - 05/10/2004 13:46
Re: Dear John
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Which is fair; he is an old man now. But otherwise. He seems to be a very solid Christian man, moreso than Bush, I'd dare.
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Bitt Faulk
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#236026 - 05/10/2004 17:31
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'm kind of afraid to watch the vice-presidential debate tonight. I've got a lot of respect for Cheney, he's a very intelligent guy...
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#236027 - 05/10/2004 17:36
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Murderous cyborgs are pretty much intelligent in the artificial sense by definition.
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#236028 - 05/10/2004 18:11
Re: Dear John
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Heh, great transcript.
"I have no idea what he's doing. Have you heard from him? Apparently he left for the heartland to discuss healthcare and that was the end of it. That was a month and a half ago."
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#236029 - 05/10/2004 18:21
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Heh, great transcript.
"I have no idea what he's doing. Have you heard from him? Apparently he left for the heartland to discuss healthcare and that was the end of it. That was a month and a half ago."
I got a video of it after the fact. Larry King seemed really caught offguard....
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#236030 - 05/10/2004 18:24
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Heh, great transcript.
Really.
I'm with Derrick. Respect for Cheney? Kinda like having respect for Gort....but I kinda got the sense that Gort was nicer deep down inside.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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