#235972 - 30/09/2004 13:02
Dear John
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Dear John,
Tonight is your big chance. Don't fuck this one up.
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#235973 - 30/09/2004 13:05
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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#235974 - 30/09/2004 13:06
Re: Dear John
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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John Kerry. Debate. Tonight. I think that is what Tony was referring to.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#235975 - 30/09/2004 14:03
Re: Dear John
[Re: pgrzelak]
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enthusiast
Registered: 31/05/2002
Posts: 352
Loc: santa cruz,ca
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on the flip side, might be handy if Bush just speaks his mind.
I can just see old Dick now.
"what ever you do, try not to speak"
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#235976 - 30/09/2004 14:15
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Amen
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#235977 - 30/09/2004 15:23
Re: Dear John
[Re: lastdan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
on the flip side, might be handy if Bush just speaks his mind.
Absolutely. I'm sure letting Bush hang himself is part of the Kerry strategy. However, Bush's greatest asset in debating is his ability to ignore whatever questions are being asked and repeat the same answers over again. The Republican handlers call this being "on message." By doing this, he never has to think on his feet, which is shrewd planning, because thinking is hard for Dubya. Because of this, I wouldn't imagine we'll be seeing any true "debating' at all.
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#235978 - 30/09/2004 15:38
Re: Dear John
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, that part is gonna suck...
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#235979 - 30/09/2004 17:26
Re: Dear John
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Absolutely. I'm sure letting Bush hang himself is part of the Kerry strategy. However, Bush's greatest asset in debating is his ability to ignore whatever questions are being asked and repeat the same answers over again. The Republican handlers call this being "on message." By doing this, he never has to think on his feet, which is shrewd planning, because thinking is hard for Dubya. Because of this, I wouldn't imagine we'll be seeing any true "debating' at all.
You won't see anything that could be called a debate. The various electronic media outlets, however, are probably obliged to call these "debates" as part of their agreement to get broadcast rights. I'm undecided about whether I will watch, given how infuriating I might find this brain-dead format. It's not like I am one of the 6 undecided voters left in the country.
I think the Bush strategy will be exactly as you describe. Focus on well-practiced, simple, near-rote responses. Less chance of trouble. Obviously, some voters will like this enough to consider it a win.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#235980 - 30/09/2004 17:32
Re: Dear John
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Maybe we should have gotten together and bought Bush a case of Shave Stick.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#235981 - 30/09/2004 18:17
Re: Dear John
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I thought it was "Lazy Shave".
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#235982 - 30/09/2004 18:25
Re: Dear John
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Oh, yeah. You're right.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#235983 - 30/09/2004 18:33
Re: Dear John
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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The scary thing is, that was from memory.
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#235984 - 30/09/2004 23:29
Re: Dear John
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Well, as I was driving home, from the grocery store, I heard about 30 seconds of Kerry's intro and about 5 seconds of Bush's. It didn't take long to decide that I can't bear to watch or listen. (Dang, even the Beeb is carrying it!)....so it is a good time to listen to some music and catch up on several threads I had meant to burden with my deep wisdom....like:
Quote:
I think the Bush strategy will be exactly as you describe.
In fairness to Bush (Hey look, Jim says he's being fair to Shrub!) , I think that Kerry will adopt much the same approach given the format of these so-called "debates". He could use to simplify a *bit*. Let's see if he can be as dopey as Bush.
What am I missing by not enduring the torture of watching? No much, I hope. It will be covered by the news media just a bit after the fact, don't you think?
Lazy Shave. Heh. Good one.
And here's my latest thought (who knows if it is original): When your horse stands in the middle of the stream and insists on standing there until he has indignantly stepped on every last piranha, it is probably time to get a new horse.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#235985 - 01/10/2004 05:36
Re: Dear John
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Tonight is your big chance.
Hey, I hear Kerry won. Wuzzup?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#235986 - 01/10/2004 10:09
Re: Dear John
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Hey, I hear Kerry won. Wuzzup?
Argh, I've got it Tivo'd and didn't have time to watch it last night-- family stuff. Hope to watch it tonight.
I caught about 20 seconds of it, I liked what I saw Kerry saying, but that's about it...
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#235987 - 01/10/2004 10:12
Re: Dear John
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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I think Kerry won it. Bush seemed flustered. I'm sure Bush supporters see it exactly opposite of me.
-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#235988 - 01/10/2004 10:22
Re: Dear John
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Bush supporter here, and to be honest, I think Kerry did have an edge. He was more well-spoken and presented more well-thought answers throughout. It certainly wasn't a runaway, but I'll concede this one.
To be honest, it's hard to imagine Kerry making it through the debates without gaining support. He's a much better speaker than Bush is.
_________________________
~ John
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#235989 - 01/10/2004 10:27
Re: Dear John
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Agreed.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#235990 - 01/10/2004 11:14
Re: Dear John
[Re: JBjorgen]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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While Kerry was the better orator in last night's debate (Bush's responses were plagued with his long lapses in speech), I can't say that either candidate came out far on top. Both stuck to their politcal rhetoric guns, agreeing to disagree. And unlike the last presidential elections, one candidate has the opportunity to use the "he did it wrong and I can-do/would-have-done it better" arguement. There were several times that Kerry's accusations caught Bush off guard (or perhaps the sensitive nature of the subject didn't allow for a response). Either way, there were times when Bush's answers fell short. He kept bringing up and overusing several "key phrases" that Kerry let slip early on in the debate. Part of the "strategery", I guess. On the flip side, there were several moments in the debate where Kerry's answers flip-flopped - a seeming change in opinion or tune - which is a image that seems to recently plague the Kerry campaign. In the end, I'd say that you could probably skip the debate because this sums the issues up quite handily. 
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#235991 - 01/10/2004 12:11
Re: Dear John
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Both sides did a good job of making out the other side to seem good at debating before the debate itself. That said, despite Bush's desperate word-searching, I think he did better than I would have expected. He showed some actual knowledge in places that I didn't expect him to. (Which is not to say that I agreed with his conclusions.) In most things, he felt quite like a politician, but I was quite surprised to hear something that felt like honest conviction about talks with North Korea. And there were only a few verbal gaffes -- "transshipping" (which it turns out is a real word, but wans not the "transport" he was looking for) and "noo-cya-ler".
I noticed Kerry trying to grab some hawkish votes, or at least make himself appear more hawkish. The most prominent thing was that he never spoke of capturing terrorists -- only killing them. It bothered me that he misused "Muslim" as an adjective multiple times (it should always be "Islamic" -- "Muslim" refers only to Islamic adherents), but that's hardly as egregious as Bush's usual verbal blunders.
Speaking of "noo-cya-ler", I think that's emblematic of his administration. By now, he's bound to know that it's wrong, but he's committed and is unwilling to admit a mistake, so he just keeps doing the wrong thing.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#235992 - 01/10/2004 12:13
Re: Dear John
[Re: Cybjorg]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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I thought Kerry showed some restraint to not pound on some of Bush's gaffes. I'm not sure why that was - perhaps he didn't feel like he needed to. Regardless, there were a few occasions where the President was left searching for answers, and he had to resort to the "It's hard work", _shrug_ combination.
Kerry also gave him enough rope to hang himself by allowing him to repeat ad infinitum the, "You cannot lead if you send mixed messages." line right until the end when he pointed out that certainty does not automatically make you right.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#235993 - 01/10/2004 12:20
Re: Dear John
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Yes, there were several overused phrases that kept popping up during the debate, including the "hard work" phrase. Bush needs to come up with some more "material", I think.
However, Bush wasn't the only one hanging himself last night. There were several occasions where Kerry's double-talk, flip-flop political trend was brought to light, sometimes by his own mouth. One thing is for sure, Kerry is definately politically correct where Bush is not.
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#235994 - 01/10/2004 12:30
Re: Dear John
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I still find it hard to believe Bush has any supporters at all. I'm in absolute amazement.
For example, I watched the movie "Envy" last night. Yeah, the Jack Black and Ben Stiller picture about the dreamer who invents the spray to get rid of dog poop. I would (at any point in time, without seeing proof) have an easier time placing faith in someone (anyone) about coming up with such an invention, than I would in Bush's capacity as president. For any public position in fact.
In any other country this election would be a land-slide.
Bruno
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#235995 - 01/10/2004 14:47
Re: Dear John
[Re: hybrid8]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
In any other country this election would be a land-slide.
In any other country, I think the people would have come to their senses by now and yanked Bush out of office.
I'm personally very disturbed by the fact that I live in a country where people can look at Bush and say "Wow. That's the guy who is so much smarter than everyone else, so much more honest and sincere, so much more on the ball that he should be our leader." (A nod to Lewis Black here).
I'm sorry to all the Bush supporters on the board, but I have a hard time buying that you're supporting him for any other reason than shared faith. By that I mean, faith in the Christian god, faith in keeping gays from marrying, faith in ... in whatever. I don't know. But I do know that I understand what Kerry said about "re-considering your decision based on the new information" (not sure if that's exactly how he put it). And I know that if you showed a Christian proof, solid proof that none of it was real, they woulod say "you're wrong, because I believe". And that is exactly what I see from Bush. If "flip-flopping" means that Kerry is refining, even changing, his decisions based on new information, then I hope to hell we get him elected. I don't know if this country can survive another four years of someone who thinks its better to ignore new information and "stick to yer guns, by god."
But I think it's disturbing that any of you can still support a president who's vice-president's last job was running the company that got the no-bid multi-billion dollar contract in Iraq. A president that stood at the podium, black tie and tails, at a $10,000 a plate dinner making jokes about being unable to find WMDs while soldiers were dying in Iraq, looking for those very WMDs. A president who declares "Mission Accomplished", but doesn't see the irony that soldiers are still dying at ever increasing rates. A president who won't even listen to his own intel.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Kerry either. I think they're both corrupt to a degree. But at least he's not an agressor. I think that he will be at least a step in the right direction, so that hopefully we can have a leader we don't have to be ashamed of.
But hey, I could be wrong on all counts. It's just my opinion. And you know what?
Its quite possible it could change, depending on what I learn in the future.
_________________________
Dave
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#235996 - 01/10/2004 14:53
Re: Dear John
[Re: hybrid8]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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I'm a Bush non-supporter whose friends are almost unanimously pro-Bush, so let me try to explain. Like in most societies, elections are popularity contests based on the cult of personality. So disregard all policies and issues right away (as we did when we elected Reagan twice). Americans like Bush, in part, for the same reason they like The Jerry Springer Show: hey, look, it's somebody more whack than me! And in Bush's case, they even get to dream of being President themselves; after all, if GWB can get there and do it, it can't be all that darned hard!
I'm sure the Bush supporters on the BBS have other theories (he's unscripted and unrehearsed, plain-spoken and speaks simply and directly about things he's genuinely convinced are right/true, etc., even if it turns out later his thinking or his actions were flawed). Yeah, blah, blah, blah. He's Forrest Gump. You got some kinda problem with Forrest Gump? Well do ya?
_________________________
-- DLF
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#235997 - 01/10/2004 15:47
Re: Dear John
[Re: webroach]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I will be voting for Bush because I agree with his stance on most issues. You can call him stupid, me stupid, whatever makes you feel good about yourself. However I will not do likewise. It is nice to live in a country where we can sharply disagree and say so.
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#235998 - 01/10/2004 15:52
Re: Dear John
[Re: DLF]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
And in Bush's case, they even get to dream of being President themselves; after all, if GWB can get there and do it, it can't be all that darned hard!
No, that just shows that anyone who believes that nepotism within the government of America died with the American War of Independance is sadly mistaken.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#235999 - 01/10/2004 16:28
Re: Dear John
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I'm personally very disturbed by the fact that I live in a country where people can look at Bush and say "Wow. That's the guy who is so much smarter than everyone else...."
I don't think people are thinking that. There's serious prejudice these days against smart people. Nerds and geeks get beat up or ostracized in school more than ever before. They distrusted Clinton because he was "slick", by which they apparently meant they he was too smart for them to be able to follow and he was going to put one over on them. I believe that there's a cult of stupidity out there. Further evidence includes the rash of "... For Dummies" and "... For Idiots" books. Apparently, people like to consider themselves dummies. It occurred to me again this weekend when I was at the toy store and saw the kid's game "Brain Quest", to which the tag line was "The game where it's okay to be smart." Wonderful.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#236000 - 01/10/2004 18:36
Re: Dear John
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm personally very disturbed by the fact that I live in a country where people can look at Bush and say "Wow. That's the guy who is so much smarter than everyone else...."
I don't think people are thinking that. There's serious prejudice these days against smart people. Nerds and geeks get beat up or ostracized in school more than ever before. They distrusted Clinton because he was "slick", by which they apparently meant they he was too smart for them to be able to follow and he was going to put one over on them. I believe that there's a cult of stupidity out there. Further evidence includes the rash of "... For Dummies" and "... For Idiots" books. Apparently, people like to consider themselves dummies. It occurred to me again this weekend when I was at the toy store and saw the kid's game "Brain Quest", to which the tag line was "The game where it's okay to be smart." Wonderful.
Smart people brought you Enron, Worldcom, outsourcing, and other fun things. Can you blame people for hating them?
Ok, maybe smart is unfair. But it's not simply greedy.
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#236001 - 01/10/2004 19:46
Re: Dear John
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I would argue that your list was brought to us by extremely stupid people, at least stupid in the "common sense" and/or "long term view" departments. But I see your point.
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